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Lindner piano #2004746
12/26/12 11:15 PM
12/26/12 11:15 PM
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Fitzgerald ,GA
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Steven Bolstridge Offline OP
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I discovered a Lindner piano for sale in a Salvation Army store for $45.00. Lindner, the infamous "plastic piano" weighing in at 165 pounds, 88 keys, made in Shannon Ireland. I have heard of these nightmares, but have never had the misfortune of actually seeing and examining one. It is quite unbelievable and unrepairable. I wonder how many of these novelties are hanging around.

Last edited by Steven Bolstridge; 12/27/12 11:49 PM.

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Re: Linder piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2004749
12/26/12 11:24 PM
12/26/12 11:24 PM
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How many are around? Way too many! They do, however, have some fascinating features. Particularly in the area of key leveling and key dip adjustment. I kept one, in the Clearwater, FL area, going for several years thanks to a tech in MA with a salvaged action.

When I moved to MA, I passed the parts on to another tech in FL.

They are disasters waiting to happen...think rotting plastic combined with springs...everywhere. Still nifty contraptions, though.


Debra Legg
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www.debraleggpiano.com
Re: Linder piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2004770
12/27/12 01:24 AM
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Lindner, not Linder.


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Re: Linder piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2004843
12/27/12 08:43 AM
12/27/12 08:43 AM
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Rochester MN
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Let's add Lidner to the mix!

If anyone is curious, here's a link:

http://www.mmdigest.com/Archives/Digests/200002/2000.02.11.09.html


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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Re: Linder piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2004894
12/27/12 11:05 AM
12/27/12 11:05 AM
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Near Dayton, Ohio USA
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Wow, I'm amazed the company stayed in business until 1987! A guy who lived in a house I shared in Toronto around 1977 had one of those pianos. The keys kept breaking....

Re: Linder piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2004917
12/27/12 12:10 PM
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Lindner made an interesting grand, without plastic parts. It can be folded to roll through a doorway without any special equipment.


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Re: Linder piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2004924
12/27/12 12:25 PM
12/27/12 12:25 PM
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Vancouver B. C. Canada
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I never came across one of the Lindner grand’s, but saw quite a few of the uprights. The key set did not present many problems; it was the hammer butt attachment to the rail that was the problem.

When they broke I epoxied them (permanently) to the rail as there were no parts available. The hammer butt had this unusual double ended spring.


Dan Silverwood
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Re: Linder piano [Re: Silverwood Pianos] #2005252
12/27/12 11:54 PM
12/27/12 11:54 PM
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Fitzgerald ,GA
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Steven Bolstridge Offline OP
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I just wonder what they sounded like when they were brand new.


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Re: Linder piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2005400
12/28/12 10:07 AM
12/28/12 10:07 AM
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Posts: 219
Newark, Ohio
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Steven,
I don't know what they were like in like new condition but I have dealt with several in the past. The plastic parts degrade over a short period of time and parts (I've heard) are available at a airport address in Ireland. There is probably a tire shop and hair care center there too. Might've been a good idea when plastics were considered a new age wonder product but longevity of the plastic suffered from natural elements in the environment. Attached is what one looks like. I also hated the consoles top lid hinge that would swing up and lock perpendicular to the cabinet. if there were pictures or anything else hanging on the wall over the instrument you would have to move the piano away from the wall. They're a waste of my time.

http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/msg/3478783600.html


David Chadwick RPT
Newark, Ohio
1931 Mason Hamlin AA
Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2005553
12/28/12 01:17 PM
12/28/12 01:17 PM
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Scotland
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I've come across a few Lindners over the years. In years past I have attempted the odd repair. But the pianos are all so much older now than when I started 27 years ago, and the minute you start trying to fix one thing, something else breaks. So now I don't attempt repairs.

Curiously, it's not so much the plastic parts that break - it's usually the thin spring steel leaf springs used in rataining keys and flanges.

I vaguely recall that the very earliest ones used foam rubber instead of normal hammer rest baize, and that this very quicky became brittle and crumbly.

It's a pity about them, because the sound was good for the size.

I have a few comments about them on the Piano Questions page of my website.

A while ago there was a big load of spare parts for sale on Ebay UK and someone bought them. But the spares will be as old as the pianos so even if they were generally available there isn't much point in trying to fit them.

It's the end of the road now for Lindners.

Last edited by David Boyce; 12/28/12 01:20 PM.
Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2011480
01/08/13 11:09 PM
01/08/13 11:09 PM
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MN
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I've recently acquired a supply of the Lindner action parts, an older technician who no longer works in the business bought out the company when they went under.

i have center rail clips, hammer clips in usable condition.
whippens, dampers, hammer buts, hammers and keys (and or an action assembly if you need it)

if you need a part or parts please email me at torgerbaland@papagenopianotuning.com and re: subject "Lindner piano parts" and let me know what you need.

thanks


Torger Baland
Piano Tuner / Technician
Minneapolis / St. Paul
www.PapagenoPianoTuning.com
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Re: Lindner piano [Re: Torger] #2011660
01/09/13 11:03 AM
01/09/13 11:03 AM
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Scotland
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Torger, it's good to know that you have some Lindner parts.

In the UK a year or two ago someone was selling a load of Lindner parts on ebay, and someone bought them. I did think about putting in a bid but decided not to in the end.

I guess it's worth keeping in mind that a) the spare parts are as old and presumably as brittle as the parts in the piano and b) if half a dozen parts have broken and get replaced, then more are probably going to go soon.

I've attampted repairs by various means in the past, but now (with the pianos being 20 years older) I am more inclined to tell clients that we've reached the end of the road with these pianos.

Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2421965
05/18/15 08:43 AM
05/18/15 08:43 AM
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Scotland
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I came across my comment in this thread and realise that I've not been accurate and that I should apologise to Dan Silverwood. His comments above are correct - problems most frequently arise from the breaking of part of the plastic 'flange' that clips the hammer butt/flange assembly into the action rail. I added a page about these pianos to my website, and it has photos I took showing the broken part. It's at http://www.davidboyce.co.uk/lindner-pianos.php

Lindner pianos also appeared under the names Topic and Cameo.

Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2606000
01/19/17 09:37 AM
01/19/17 09:37 AM
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I know this is an old thread, but recently with the aid of some reverse engineering and 3D printers, some new parts have been engineered for the little Lindner uprights. A guy in England is making a couple of the most frequently broken parts, to an improved design that doesn't, in the hammer butt/flange arrangement, require the little square leaf spring.

Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2732137
04/26/18 11:53 PM
04/26/18 11:53 PM
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Came across one of the beauties yesterday.

Had never seen one of them before.

Don't ever want to again!

What a piece of un-repairable rubbish!

Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2732151
04/27/18 02:17 AM
04/27/18 02:17 AM
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Nürnberg
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Nürnberg
David, that's a great page you have assembled about Lindner, thanks for that.

With 3D printing slowly gaining ground, I'm really wondering whether we might be on the cusp of a reevaluation of the use of plastics in piano actions. When we come to a point where 3D models for parts are readily available and anyone has easy access to a 3D printer, we actually might come to prefer plastics over wood.

Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2732153
04/27/18 02:36 AM
04/27/18 02:36 AM
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It is a shame that early plastics had longevity problems, because the injection molding process lent itself to some innovative designs, including the Lindner upright action. I wonder how stable 3D printed objects are, but they are clearly suitable for pattern making.


Semipro Tech
Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2732161
04/27/18 03:44 AM
04/27/18 03:44 AM
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Yes, it's all very interesting.

If Lindner had managed to stay in business, no doubt they would have discovered more durable plastics in time, and they would still be supplying parts.

I think the problem at the moment is that, although Mr Grant Benton and one or two others are making parts, the whole actions are fragile. If you take the action out to replace say half a dozen parts, other parts are likely to break during the handling. So it's best to replace a whole set, of parts - flange/clips or whatever.

But unless owners are competent to do that themselves, the cost of paying a technician to do it is likely to exceed the value of the repaired piano.

Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2732162
04/27/18 03:45 AM
04/27/18 03:45 AM
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topazkey, you are severe! The pianos sounded good for their size, and when all in working order, felt OK to play. They also had good tuning stability.

Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2732208
04/27/18 08:10 AM
04/27/18 08:10 AM
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With the cost of 3D printers and CNC machines going ever lower, it might not be that far into the future that someone could measure the various parts and post free G-code (CNC "instructions") so that anyone could manufacture those parts out of a more stable polymer like delrin (or even wood) as they are needed.

That would be an interesting project!

When I had the action out of my own piano, I eyeballed it and thought I could probably make almost anything I saw that wasn't leather or felt on a mill out of either aluminum/wood/plastic. That got me to thinking why no companies are doing that. I'm assuming it's because of some magic sonic property of wood that would make the resulting tone unappealing. Or is it something else?

Best,

Last edited by Ritz; 04/27/18 08:21 AM.

1938 Chickering Baby Grand
Trying to learn about these fascinating instruments
Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2732261
04/27/18 11:09 AM
04/27/18 11:09 AM
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P W Grey Offline
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I similarly have wondered why 3d printing has not gained much traction in this business.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Re: Lindner piano [Re: P W Grey] #2732282
04/27/18 12:00 PM
04/27/18 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
I similarly have wondered why 3d printing has not gained much traction in this business.



If I was a tech in the field working on some snowflake instrument needing a part that's out of production, expensive, or just a pain in the ass to source, I would welcome a process like this:

1. snap a couple of high resolution photos of the part
2. email those to a local CNC or 3D printer fab (or just consume them yourself if you've got the fab gear)
3. convert those images to 3D models (there's free and almost free software that does that today)
4. convert those 3D models to CNC G-code (ditto)
5. feed the G-code to your machine and wait for it to excrete the part
6. fix customer's instrument and make money
7. rinse/repeat
8. (optional) create a library of those G-code files and share with colleagues so everyone benefits


1938 Chickering Baby Grand
Trying to learn about these fascinating instruments
Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2732360
04/27/18 05:24 PM
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I agree.

Kranich & Bach would be a prime example of where to use this. Or an old Brown action. Etc.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
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Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2732449
04/28/18 03:11 AM
04/28/18 03:11 AM
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I think the problem, at least for now, is lack of "economy of scale". Ours is a niche market, and parts-making would only become profitable if there was a demand for a large number of units. Otherwise the unit cost of the parts would be prohibitive. Even with piano parts made from traditional materials, how many manufacturers are there> Not nearly as many as there were sixty years ago. Not in the West anyway.

Re: Lindner piano [Re: David Boyce] #2732467
04/28/18 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
I think the problem, at least for now, is lack of "economy of scale". Ours is a niche market, and parts-making would only become profitable if there was a demand for a large number of units. Otherwise the unit cost of the parts would be prohibitive. Even with piano parts made from traditional materials, how many manufacturers are there> Not nearly as many as there were sixty years ago. Not in the West anyway.


Economy of scale would certainly apply to traditional manufacturing processes because of the huge capital cost in machinery, labor, and raw materials. This isn't one of those situations. You can literally go from some photos and a few measurements to an actual part in your hand within hours (or maybe faster). You need only to stock a few types of wood and maybe some delrin (and even aluminum if you want to make metal parts). Quality CNC machines are coming down in price to about $2-3k (and dropping fast). While it will never be as cheap as an assembly line, you also don't have to stock thousands of parts anymore. Suitable for common parts? Of course not. But suitable for parts that are out of production or difficult/expensive to acquire? I think so. Not every tech would need the equipment. If you had a couple of these setups in your town, that would be ideal. The equipment can obviously make a LOT more things than piano parts.

It may take a while, but I suspect this is where this and other niche industries are headed.

Best,


1938 Chickering Baby Grand
Trying to learn about these fascinating instruments
Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2732530
04/28/18 01:46 PM
04/28/18 01:46 PM
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I agree 100%

Ritz,

Can brass be printed that is as strong as plate brass (from which we have customarily stamped out or machined small threaded parts to hold center pins)? I am specifically thinking of Chickerings with brass flanges, butt plates, etc.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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Re: Lindner piano [Re: P W Grey] #2732556
04/28/18 03:48 PM
04/28/18 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
I agree 100%

Ritz,

Can brass be printed that is as strong as plate brass (from which we have customarily stamped out or machined small threaded parts to hold center pins)? I am specifically thinking of Chickerings with brass flanges, butt plates, etc.



Brass is somewhere in the middle between Aluminum and steel in terms of hardness. You wouldn't print it. You'd have to start with bar/plate/rod and mill that into the shape you want. I've not tried milling brass before, but I don't think it would be particularly challenging. Can you show me an example of a part you're talking about?

Printing metal parts is still pretty cutting edge and a bit expensive. I think we're still maybe 5-10 years out from having consumer/pro-sumer machinery availability. Printing plastic parts is fairly easy/cheap.

Best,


1938 Chickering Baby Grand
Trying to learn about these fascinating instruments
Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2732584
04/28/18 05:34 PM
04/28/18 05:34 PM
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Brass can be cut with CNC machines. I think that is how logos are made these days.


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Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2732614
04/28/18 07:24 PM
04/28/18 07:24 PM
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Maybe a suitable type of plastic could be 3D printed to replace brass flanges?

Re: Lindner piano [Re: Steven Bolstridge] #2732627
04/28/18 09:52 PM
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Yes, I have wondered that too. I suspect delrin might suffice, but I don't know about its long term strength in the manner of a butt plate. CF maybe.

I have never figured out how to post a photo here. I am somewhat challenged that way. I would like to post a photo of a Chickering brass whippen flange with butt plate as well as brass hammer flange.

I will try to figure it out.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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