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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: Erard] #2735943
05/12/18 11:27 AM
05/12/18 11:27 AM
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karvala Online content
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Originally Posted by Erard
Back to VSL - I have to say - I'm having a great time with this piano.
I've been working with it quite a bit as I wanted to make the tone warmer and more pleasing in general - out of the box it's a little on the cold side and has not enough body IMO.
Yesterday I managed to get a more satisfying result - and I couldn't stop playing. I love the responsiveness and playability - they are really first rate.
Here is another example - Chopin's Scherzo n. 3 - a piece that exploits almost all the characteristics of the piano:

Chopin - Scherzo n. 3


I've played around with this a bit more now as well, and fiddled bit more with the sound options, and my impression has certainly improved. In the right circumstances, which means not only with the right setting but also the right piece, it's exquisitely beautiful - possibly even more than the Garritan - and the samples are crystal clear. But there are significant limitations in my view, and it's not suitable for certain pieces at all, which is not the case with the Garritan. On that note, that's a nice demo, and very impressive performance! The challenge, for a VST, though is not to sound good in complex pieces with plenty of pedal. Almost all VSTs sound fairly nice in such favourable circumstances. The real challenge is how it sounds in something much more simple and exposed, e.g. a Bach fugue or a Haydn sonata or something like that.

Originally Posted by Erard

I also tested the sustain pedal again, and actually the piano does respond somewhat to the velocity when you go up - it stops faster if you pull the pedal up faster. If you go slower it follows till a certain speed - you cannot do a real half-pedalling where the note is stopped slowly or lasts a shorter time, like you can on Garritan or a real piano. Hope this makes sense.


Yes, half-pedal definitely works, is definitely noticeable and the adjustment allows the scale of the effect to be controlled, which is a nice touch. Aside from the bug with clipped release samples in some mics when using the sustain in the current version (1.0530), the pedal implementation feels okay to me.


Originally Posted by Erard

@Grazilerimba - Yes, I was bothered by the some notes sticking out - I use a free VST call VeloScaler. It allows you to scale back (or forward) the midi velocity of a note o a group of notes, up to five notes/groups (or more if you chain them). I got a better uniformity this way. I used it also on Garritan CFX to make it really even.


Yeah, I've used that with some other VSTs before. Here you can actually adjust the volume on a per-note basis anyway in the editor, which is nice, so you don't even strictly need VeloScaler. I wish you could adjust the space in a similar way; shame there aren't separate MIDI values for different stereo channels.

Originally Posted by Erard

The Bad:
1. I agree - it should have a standalone mode. Fortunately it's easy to remedy the lack of a dedicate application using SaviHost, which is free and works well. VSL CFX in SaviHost
About the soft links and the crashing: you don't need to use them - it's possible to move the sound files wherever you want them (even in more than one place) and then change the path the VST will search, or add new paths (Click the gear, then Database). I did it, it works.
The USB dongle: ahh - I hate it! But we knew that before buying, so...
About the frequency of the A key: if you are referring to the 415 that appears under the equalizer after Frequency - that is the frequency of the control in the equalizer that has the focus, not the frequency of the note. If you move the control in the equalizer it will show a different frequency.

2. I agree on this too - it's a very complex piece of software - but also you can do a lot with it. You can edit the volume, the dynamics and equalize with a parametric equalizer each single note! Edit the volume, equalize, delay, pan, apply reverb (and modify dynamically each parameter of the equalizer following the velocity or other MIDI parameters, with Learn function) - all separately for each mic position. And more. I quite like it.

3. Notes out of tune: that's not good at all - fortunately they are very rare - I heard one once on a sample in this thread - but it hasn't happened to me yet while playing.

4. Long load times - on my computer it takes a time proportional to the GB it has to load (makes sense, right?). Try changing the Default Preload Size. I use 3172 samples, and it takes the same time as Garritan (where I use the maximum pre-load size) to load into VSTHost. (15 seconds more or less using NVME drive)


1. Yes, I use it with SaviHost at the moment, which works fine. I've used that with others in the past as well; a neat bit of software that does the job with a minimal resource requirement. They have actually fixed the loading crash when using junction links, or at least prevented it from crashing. It still doesn't respect junction links, which is quite surprising and suggests the sample locations are being read in a fairly unusual way (most software can't tell the difference between a junction link and a local directory, and indeed it's not supposed to). As you say, though, the sounds files can be moved around easily without needing any reinstallation, so it's not a significant issue. Contrast that with the nightmare of installing Ivory pianos, for example, and it's actually quite good. For the dongle, I've put it in and ignored it, so I'm not too bothered, but I will be if/when it breaks, plus it's wasting a USB port. Not a big deal, but they should join the 21st century and allow online licencing like everyone else.

Editor frequency: no, that is supposed to show the frequency of the fundamental when you first start, before you make any changes. That's been confirmed as a bug by the developer, who attempted to fix it in the last release but it is fixed only before any samples are loaded (try it and you'll see); as soon as the samples are loaded it's broken again. Apparently it will be fixed in a future release. EDIT: I've just looked at the three controls and they appear to show what are supposed to be the first three partials for each. What you see in the frequency box is indeed the frequency of the element that you control, but at the moment these are all based on the frequency of a neighboring note and not the correct note. As the EQs are flat by default, it won't make any difference in practice unless they're adjusted, but if they are, they should be adjusted based on the actual note. Of course, EQing to change note timbre is a dark art anyway, so precision is more of a theoretical concept here!

2. I like the level of control, I don't like the opacity of controls. The spatial controls, in particular, seem to very unpredictable and poorly explained. The rest are not too bad I suppose. Good to have the options, anyway.

3. This is worse on some mics than others, and inevitably much worse at very loud volumes. In fact the two adjustments I've made which made the aural experience more pleasant than anything else were increasing body (to various levels between 5% and 30%) and reducing the MIDI sensitivity (to between -5 and -10). The latter in particular has helped avoid some of those really harsh, banged tones where the slightly mistuned strings are clearly audible. The timbre of one or notes is still disturbing, e.g. B3 (just below middle-C) on the Close 1 mic is just horrible. I really wish they allowed stretching of neighbouring tones so that these rogue notes could be avoided.

4. Load times: it's improved a bit since my first 10-minute test, as I've increased the number of streaming and loading threads to 8, which seems to improve performance/reduces glitches a lot, and thus reduced the number of samples preloaded (not quite to your level, but 4096). I also remembered to add the folder as an exception to Windows Defender which I hadn't done before, and which improves times again. You're right in that it is proportional to the amount being loaded, but as I tend to use 2-3 mics at least, this is still a lot longer than the Garritan, and requires a lot more memory. It's a minor irritation, but not a deal-breaker by any means, and there's nothing that the developer could do about other than using on-the-fly decompression which would add to the CPU load and impact performance. This is the one area where Kontakt actually have some good technology.

Originally Posted by Erard

The Ugly (duckling? smile )
Re: the space - not as good as Garritan's, but I find it definitely usable.
Re: phasing - I'm curious if you hear phasing in the sample above? Probably I'm not very sensitive to it - and in any case I try to avoid anything that sound strange while playing with the knobs in the UI.


Space: to me the biggest difference between this and the Garritan, and in a sense the biggest limitation of this, is that this is ALL ambient sound to some extent. Even in the dryest possibly settings, where you might play some pieces and think you've finally rid yourself of the room, just play a single quick melody and you'll hear the smudging as the room resonance kicks in. That's with close mics only, all reverb turned off, midi sensitivity down, body up etc.. It's literally unavoidable. Paul (chief developer) pretty much said the same thing someone on their forum who was asking how to make it even drier. That's okay - that's the product they chose to make - but it means it doesn't have the versatility of the Garritan. On the other hand, if you like an ambient or distant sound, and want resonance and reverb, then you really can't do better, and there are plenty of options for that here. For myself, I don't mind the details of the room (though I do prefer Garritan's overall spatial characteristics, for sure), but I mind being forced to have the room whether I like it or not.

Phasing: yes, I hear it a bit, but not very much. It's more apparent when you're playing than listening in general, and the problem is much more apparent in some mics. The C5 that sticks out like a sore thumb in Close 1, for example, is fine in Close 2, so it's clearly a problem with specific samples which look like they were wrongly mixed to me. The developer has quite actively engaged with the community in regard to other bugs, so I'm hoping that he'll actually take this seriously and make an effort to fix it, which improve playability a lot. Even better, he could just put a spatial control or even just a stereo mixer control on the per-note editing page, and then we can do it ourselves. Until then, I'm avoiding the Close 1 mic.




Last edited by karvala; 05/12/18 11:38 AM.

Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: Grazilerimba] #2735960
05/12/18 12:44 PM
05/12/18 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Grazilerimba
Thank you for the very detailed descriptions karvala. I was looking forward to hearing what the more technically versed users would have to say. So this mistuned strings and phase matching stuff could probably be the reason why the instrument feels a little bit 'out of tune' in general, but not in the same way as a badly out of tune note would. VSL wrote on their site that they had tuners present at the sampling sessions, so it's surprising to me that this seems to be an ever bigger issue than what I had already thought it would be.

What surprises me, is nobody else noticing the notes that stand out or feel bothered by it? Especially the g5, g sharp 5 (and I think also a 5), if you play them within melodies or chords. Also how about d5 sounding out of tune?


Yeah, some notes are certainly not great. It seems to vary quite a lot with the different velocity layers as well, so sometimes it's quite hard to reproduce a particular problem on demand, but you frequently hear it while playing. In which mic are those bad notes?

Originally Posted by Grazilerimba

@karvala, that's a great list of piano VSTs you have. I would really love to like the Bechstein and I could probably find a way to deal with the extreme system requirements, but the sound is just very unpleasant to me. The recording (player perspective) sounds like it comes from an old radio, for the lack of a better description. I can't stand the sound for more than a few minutes. How did you get it to sound good to your ears? Also the multi instrument is a chore to use. The velocity curves are set up in a weird way so that certain samples (belonging to individual mics) are only triggered at certain velocities, and if you want to change a setting in one mic, you gotta repeat that for the other two


The main changes to the Bechstein that I use all the time are to make the velocity curves linear (I do that in most VSTs unless there's a clear reason not to; it's a way of taking an important parameter out of the sound equation), add some warmth (+1, sometimes even +2; occasionally I'll remove that but not often), close the lid by at least 1/3rd (that probably makes a bigger difference than anything else), and add some (sampled) Aura while increasing the stage distance a little. It makes it more resonant (but also more distant and with some reverb) but a lot more playable as well. I wouldn't say it sounds good(!), but it sounds acceptable and like a Bechstein, and it has a lot of clarity when playing.

Originally Posted by Grazilerimba

The ACD has great playability, it's among the most real feeling instruments, but the sound is not satisfying to me. Something is wrong with their resonance engine, it worked nicely in the German D from Ivory II, but for some reason the decay of the resonances is so much steeper in the ACD to the point where it has an impact on the enjoyment. This is also the reason why I didn't get the Studio Grands, because I had this issues with the Italian Grand as well and figured it's just gonna be that way for everything that isn't German D.


Yeah, all the Ivory piano seem to be very playable; they've really nailed that part. They're all a bit lacking in depth to me, and the single mic perspective which is somewhere in the near-mid range doesn't really convince from an aural perspective. The decay of the Studio Grands is possibly better than the ACD, but still not great; certainly not on a Garritan/CFX scale.

Originally Posted by Grazilerimba

As for the Grandeur, I would really love to play it, but those phantom notes you mention ruin it for me. It's fairly reproducible as well: press down a note, press down the pedal. release the note. Now quickly release and push down the pedal, as if you wanted to repedal. You'll end up with a weird "re-pedalling of the resonance" where you'll get a sound as if the string was being plucked. This can be avoided by turning down the resonance knob, but then you get an instrument that's as dry as a fata morgana in the desert. I had no idea the Vintage D and the Grandeur were made by the same guys. That's awesome. I wonder what they're up to next.

re: VI Labs pianos, I find it hard to configure them. They have this weird seit of knobs and curves and I can't get them to feel natural to play at all. If I remember correctly it's something about sensitivity curves, but there's also a velocity curve, and then another knob with something else. Very unintuitive when compared to Garritan CFX. The Accousticsamples VSTs have the same thing, especially the C7 grand which gets some acclaim on here but which I just couldn't get warm with at all.


Yeah, it's all pretty confusing. There a velocity curve, a velocity min, a velocity max, a velocity sensitivity and a dynamics amount. The Ravenscroft also throws in a midi sensitivity curve as well to REALLY confuse you. I'm all for having options, but these things would seem to be interrelated and yet the controls are all independently adjustable and don't affect the values of the others, so you end up wondering what the effect of something is actually going to be. As I go for a simple linear velocity from 1 to 127 (usually, sometimes to 115 or 120 for certain instruments), I can more or less ignore the velocity parameters. The dynamics one, however, is crucial and the default value of 40% is absolutely bonkers. I adjusted it a bit in the 30-60% range, and it had some effect but still I didn't find any of the True Keys pianos to be particularly playable. Then one day I came back to it and tested 90% and it's SO much more playable. I can't understand why they limit it to 40% by default.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2735978
05/12/18 01:52 PM
05/12/18 01:52 PM
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Erard Offline
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A quick question: on my copy, the single note volume in Edit page doesn't work. All the other sliders work.
For example, if I select a note and move the Note Dynamic Range the change is obvious, but the Note Volume slider has no effect.
Any suggestions?


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: Erard] #2735983
05/12/18 02:33 PM
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Which version are you running? In 1.0530 it definitely works okay for me; the change log for that version mentions that the per-note controls were not working properly before, but doesn't specify which; I guess it could be that?


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: karvala] #2735990
05/12/18 02:58 PM
05/12/18 02:58 PM
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Yes, that was it! Thank you for the quick response thumb


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2735992
05/12/18 03:05 PM
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Great; glad to help. There are good things about 1.0530, but as you'll discover if you hadn't already been using it, there's a serious bug in which the reverb and room resonance is more or less cut off dead for any notes that were pressed while the sustain pedal was down, once the notes and/or the pedal are released. It can be a bit distracting during playing. In the previous version that had been fixed, but it's broken again in this one, just to warn you.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2735999
05/12/18 03:55 PM
05/12/18 03:55 PM
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Thanks for the warning karvala - and now the half pedal behaves properly and it's fully modelled - really great actually! This thing is growing on me even more...
I like the fact that they are on the ball and listen to customers.

I hope they will implement the possibility to adjust temperaments - period music requires that IMO. Besides, I prefer modern well temperaments (Koval 3, Coleman 11 etc.) over equal.

On the forum at VSL somebody asked about that. The response from Paul:
No tuning options in there (yet). Hope we can add this option later, but I can't promise that.

I hope so too.

Last edited by Erard; 05/12/18 04:07 PM.

Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736028
05/12/18 07:37 PM
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Why are some here saying that there is no "stand alone mode?" What does that mean? It doesn't come with software to run the piano? What software are they using in that 30 min video on youtube?

Also, at the beginning of the 30 minute youtube video the guy says that this is a Yamaha CFX piano, with a "new interface based on the Synchron player engine that is coming up soon." What is the "Synchron player engine" that is coming up soon? Is it not available now?

Thanks for the help.

God Bless,
David


Kawai MP-11SE
Macbook Air/Focusrite Scarlett 2i4/KRK Rokit 6 G3 Studio Monitors
Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course; Lessons 1-30 Completed
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736075
05/13/18 03:36 AM
05/13/18 03:36 AM
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Erard Offline
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Originally Posted by David B
Why are some here saying that there is no "stand alone mode?" What does that mean? It doesn't come with software to run the piano? What software are they using in that 30 min video on youtube?

Also, at the beginning of the 30 minute youtube video the guy says that this is a Yamaha CFX piano, with a "new interface based on the Synchron player engine that is coming up soon." What is the "Synchron player engine" that is coming up soon? Is it not available now?

Thanks for the help.

God Bless,
David

Stand alone in this context, to put it practically, means that you double click an icon and the program starts and you can play the instrument. That means that the instrument software is at least able to receive MIDI as input and to interface with your sound card as output.
The VSL Yamaha CFX instead is sold as a plugin, meaning it needs another containing piece of software to interface with your keyboard, with the sound card etc. - this piece of software can be a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) which acts as a plugin host, among other functions (recording, editing etc.) or it can be a simpler Host that just allows you to play the instrument. The user interface of the instrument is managed by the plugin but it's launched from inside the host.

Yes, the Synchron player engine is available now in the VSL CFX product.

Last edited by Erard; 05/13/18 03:49 AM.

Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736076
05/13/18 03:38 AM
05/13/18 03:38 AM
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Stand alone generally means the player can’t be loaded without an host (DAW or other host).

On a PC SAVIhost is a really simple host : you rename the executable fie to match the VST filename (but keep the .exe extension), then it will automatically load the matching VST.

The player I have loaded is called Vienna Synchron Pianos. It is available !

Last edited by Frédéric L; 05/13/18 03:42 AM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736085
05/13/18 06:04 AM
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Frederic, I think you meant it the other way around: stand-alone means after instalation you can directly open the vst in it's own program - i.e. It doesn't need an external program or host, therefore it can "stand-alone", just as Erard explained above.

Last edited by mcoll; 05/13/18 06:07 AM.
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736087
05/13/18 06:08 AM
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Yes stand alone doesn’t need a host. It is rare to find a virtual instrument which is not available in VST and/or AU. Generally they can also be load in a DAW.

(The exception I know is Haupwerk which is only stand alone. Its VST doesn’t load the instruments but send it MIDI event, but can’t get the sound back as usual VST).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 05/13/18 06:14 AM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: Frédéric L] #2736089
05/13/18 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Stand alone generally means the player can’t be loaded without an host (DAW or other host)!


That's why I assumed you didn't want to write this smile

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736095
05/13/18 07:05 AM
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<scratches head in confusion>

The host (which is also called a player) is what makes an instrument 'standalone'. It is also what makes it playable in a DAW (ie. it will have a VST dll file which the DAW recognises).

If the host/player doesn't have that dll file, it will not work inside the DAW - which makes it standalone only, which sounds like the case with Haupwerk.

Some commonly used hosts/players (which work both inside the DAW as a plugin or standalone) are:

Kontakt (native instruments)
UVI workstation (UVI)
Player (EWQL)
Pianoteq
Sforzando (Plogue)


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736100
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No, the host is the program which loads (and hosts) a plugin. Depending of the technology, the plugin is a VST instrument or an Audio Unit (Mac) (or other forms : RTAS,AAX...). The host is typically a DAW, a software like Cantabile or Mainstage, or a given software dedicated to load the virtual instrument. An other VST host is... VSThost : http://hermannseib.com/English/vsthost.htm

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Studio_Technology where hosts and plugins are clearly differentiated.

I agree about the player : it is the software which loads the samples and interprets them. It may have two forms : standalone or plugin. The Play_VST_x64.dll of EWQL is a player like the name said (it exists also as a standalone player Play_x64.exe). The Vienna Synchro Pianos is a player with no standalone version.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 05/13/18 07:58 AM.

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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736104
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Simple guide, for the benefit of simple people like me:-

Part A: I start with some samples and some idea of what I want to do with them. I add some bells and whistles and write a program to control how my samples should relate to the input from my keyboard. I probably add a graphical interface at this point as well with controls that the end user can interact with. This is called a Virtual Studio Technology (VST) plugin and comes as a .dll file along with a bunch of other files for the samples and programs. Not playable without something more.

Part B: I put my plugin in a piece of software which I call a host. This might be a general Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) (e.g. Logic, Pro Tools, Ableton etc.), or it might be a generic program designed purely to host any type of VST (e.g. Savihost) or it might be a program design to host only VSTs that use specific program routines offered by that host (such as Kontakt, Aria, UVI Workstation). Confusingly, some of these hosts can also act as plugins themselves and be hosted by other hosts (usually DAWs).

These parts are combined in three broad scenarios:-

1. Some piano VSTs (Part A) bundle the host (Part B) with them (e.g. Garritan CFX, which includes Aria player).

2. Some specify a particular host and require you to download it: sometimes free (e.g. the Ravenscroft 275 requires the free UVI Workstation), sometimes not free (e.g. the Production Grand 2 requires the full version of Kontakt

3. Some others require no particular host (e.g. the VSL CFX) and leave you to use your choice of host, which might be a DAW that you already have or decide to acquire (e.g. Ableton), or a dedicated VST host (e.g. Savihost).

The VSL CFX belongs to Scenario 3.

Last edited by karvala; 05/13/18 08:00 AM.

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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736107
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That's a great overview, Karvala.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736110
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I would said 3 parts : the samples/instruments (ex a .nki file - Native Kontakt Instrument), the player which is a plugin (VST and AU architecture by example), and the host.

The VSL CFX samples are downloaded separately from the VSL Synchron Pianos, the name of which seems to be opened for future other pianos.

There exists also two parts scenarios like Pianoteq (a single VST file which don’t need samples).


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: Frédéric L] #2736112
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Originally Posted by toddy
That's a great overview, Karvala.


Thanks. smile

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
I would said 3 parts : the samples/instruments (ex a .nki file - Native Kontakt Instrument), the player which is a plugin (VST and AU architecture by example), and the host.

The VSL CFX samples are downloaded separately from the VSL Synchron Pianos, the name of which seems to be opened for future other pianos.

There exists also two parts scenarios like Pianoteq (a single VST file which don’t need samples).


Curiously, I actually had three parts in my original version and then thought that samples are usually tied to a particular instrument so it was more confusing to separate, but you're right, in some cases like Konkakt the situation is a bit more complex and they can be separated from the player. I still think it's probably more confusing to separate them though, because it's liable to confusion of loading different instruments in hosts (e.g. Aria loading the Production Grand and the Concert Grand) which could easily be confused with loading different instruments into a VST (and especially if you call it player; e.g. people might think that Aria player is a therefore a VST rather than a host)..


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736120
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Generally, samples are in a proprietary format, then we can’t choose the player. Ex Bechstein Digital Grand needs Kontakt (full or free player). With open format instruments (SF2, SFZ), we can have the choice.

In the other way, 1/ we have some player designed for a given samples set. The VSL Vienna Imperial is a player designed for their eponymous samples (separating the player from the samples makes little sense), 2/ some player which are designed for a given brand (Ivory Player is common for the whole set of Ivory pianos), or 3/ even for third party instruments (Kontakt and UVI workstation can load samples from other brands).

We can have some other cases : Garritan CFX is loaded by an eponymous player, but it is an Aria Player tuned to load Garritan CFX. Garritan CFX can also be load by the normal Aria Player.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 05/13/18 09:39 AM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736129
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So if I buy the VSL Standard CFX product and download all the samples onto my computer, I can only open them up and play them inside of GrageBband which is the only DAW I have?

When I open it up in Garageband will the interface look like the Synchron interface in the 30 min youtube video? Thanks for the help.

God Bless,
David


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Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course; Lessons 1-30 Completed
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736722
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I heard back from Paul at VSL. A very nice and patient guy (I've been asking him a lot of questions). Grangeband will not host the VSL CFX because it does not recognize their protection system. Paul suggested I get Logix pro x. When I looked it up on the apple website, it's a 200 dollar program. I can't afford that on top of the cost of the of the VSL CFX and the USB protection thingy (30 dollars).

Anyone know how I can record this if I get it? Paul said that the Vienna Ensemble software, that's free on his website, will work as a standalone host for the VSL Yamaha CFX. Now I just need to find a way to record and transfer the midi into Grageband since tha'st the only DAW I have. I really can't afford to buy a new program. Any suggestions? Thanks.

God Bless,
David

Last edited by David B; 05/15/18 06:44 AM.

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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736724
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The incompatibility of GarageBand seems curious. The host-plugin interface (Audio Unit here) doesn’t provide protection. It is up to the plugin to protect itself with a direct access to the eLicenser drivers here. I can’t see why Logic would be superior than GarageBand on this subject.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: Frédéric L] #2736727
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
The incompatibility of GarageBand seems curious. The host-plugin interface (Audio Unit here) doesn’t provide protection. It is up to the plugin to protect itself with a direct access to the eLicenser drivers here. I can’t see why Logic would be superior than GarageBand on this subject.


This is what Paul said, "Our products will not work in Garage Band, as it is a sandboxed host which does not recognize our protection system, eLicenser."

Any ideas how I can record the VSL CFX if I buy it? I'd like to do it for free if possible.

God Bless,
David

Last edited by David B; 05/15/18 07:16 AM.

Kawai MP-11SE
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Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course; Lessons 1-30 Completed
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736731
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I'm definitely not an expert on these - but I think Audacity is a free download and Reaper is free for a 60 day trial ($60 to purchase). I've seen both of these recommended.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736774
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Audacity is not a DAW like Cubase, Logic, GarageBand... it can’t load VSTi like VSL CFX, only VSTfx (reverb, eq...).

@David B : with the sandboxing, I understand the reason of the limitation of GarageBand. This should be very restrictive if it prevents iLok and eLicenser protected softwares.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2736781
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Cakewalk Sonar is free as well.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: David B] #2736792
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Originally Posted by David B

This is what Paul said, "Our products will not work in Garage Band, as it is a sandboxed host which does not recognize our protection system, eLicenser."

David


Paul seems to be misinformed. I have no problem running Synchron CFX in GarageBand. Some of their other products don't work, but as far as I can tell it is not because of licensing issues. VI Pro 2 in particular does not work (it can't find the samples from the Directory Manager). VE Pro works.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2737283
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Some time ago I purchased MainStage, but never used it. I'm thinking that I might be able to run the VSL CFX as a AU plugin with MainStage and and record with it also. Therefore, I don't have to buy a new program to record. I'm waiting to hear back from Paul to confirm his CFX will work with MainStage. I will get the VSL CFX if it does.

God Bless,
David


Last edited by David B; 05/16/18 09:00 PM.

Kawai MP-11SE
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Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course; Lessons 1-30 Completed
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: David B] #2737291
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Originally Posted by David B
Some time ago I purchased MainStage, but never used it. I'm thinking that I might be able to run the VSL CFX as a AU plugin with MainStage and and record with it also. Therefore, I don't have to buy a new program to record. I'm waiting to hear back from Paul to confirm his CFX will work with MainStage. I will get the VSL CFX if it does.


Synchron CFX does work in MainStage.

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