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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: Erard] #2734008
05/04/18 05:44 AM
05/04/18 05:44 AM
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karvala Offline
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Originally Posted by Erard

I start to think the Garritan CFX is kind of a miracle - the only one sampled piano I enjoy playing each and every time...


Yeah, the Garritan CFX does seem to do things surprisingly well. It seems that producing a really good piano VST is a lot harder than people think. In the Garritan CFX you have an unusually good acoustic instrument in an unusually good room, sampled in an unusual but highly effective way (i.e. with all the room resonance bundled), and with some really intelligent design decisions (e.g. separate sustain samples that be turned on or off; separate una corda samples that can be selected; different perspectives with multiple pairs of well-chosen close and ambient mics that can be individually adjusted and individually EQd; a very high dynamic range; proper pedal support). It's not flawless (the noise floor is rather high which can bother some people, and the switched stereo in the Player ambient mic is eccentric and ought to be customisable at least), but it's a lot closer to perfection than any other piano VST I've come across yet.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2734010
05/04/18 06:06 AM
05/04/18 06:06 AM
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Erard Offline
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@Karvala - Exactly.
I would add that every note in Garritan CFX has been triggered by a human, and the actual virtual instrument has been created later using intelligently the raw material recorded, if I understand correctly the description on the Garritan website.
As opposed to recording precisely each velocity mechanically and selling it (more or less) as is with seemingly very little post production.
I like the first approach better.


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX & Steinway D - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: Erard] #2734013
05/04/18 06:41 AM
05/04/18 06:41 AM
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slobajudge Online content OP
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Originally Posted by Erard

I bought the Vienna Imperial some time ago, played it a few times. Very uneven. I was lucky I could sell it.

Very uneven ? Its not. Maybe you are sensitive too much.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2734022
05/04/18 07:46 AM
05/04/18 07:46 AM
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Re Garritan CFX, i find it very strange that i seem to "connect" to the piano when playing all the presets in the audience perspective ("default" presets) and not the performer perspective. I even decided to record in real time with the audience mode.

Maybe because the audience is more easy on the ear? Who knows. Baffled.

Last edited by tdwctdwc; 05/04/18 07:49 AM.
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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: Erard] #2734025
05/04/18 08:06 AM
05/04/18 08:06 AM
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gmaster Offline
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Originally Posted by slobajudge
Originally Posted by Erard

I bought the Vienna Imperial some time ago, played it a few times. Very uneven. I was lucky I could sell it.

Very uneven ? Its not. Maybe you are sensitive too much.

I agree, It may have tuning problems but it is even. It is more sensitive due to high number of layers. Which makes it enjoyable piano for classical music. Except the fact that it does not have half pedaling and repedalling support, it is very playable for live performances as well.

Originally Posted by Erard
@Karvala - Exactly.
I would add that every note in Garritan CFX has been triggered by a human, and the actual virtual instrument has been created later using intelligently the raw material recorded, if I understand correctly the description on the Garritan website.
As opposed to recording precisely each velocity mechanically and selling it (more or less) as is with seemingly very little post production.
I like the first approach better.

I disagree with this. First option may provide more consistency, however it can also diminish real piano feeling. To my ears, Garritan CFX sounds much sweet, especially on timbre, however also it sounds more digital, pianoteq-like than real compared to VSL. In addition VSL has probably about 60 layers minimum, so I suspect volume differences between different keys can be very large.

We need to wait for more demos from VSL. At the same time, if those who buy VSL and other Garritan owners may share their recordings using same midi file can be helpful.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2734030
05/04/18 08:23 AM
05/04/18 08:23 AM
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Italy
Erard Offline
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Originally Posted by slobajudge
Originally Posted by Erard

I bought the Vienna Imperial some time ago, played it a few times. Very uneven. I was lucky I could sell it.

Very uneven ? Its not. Maybe you are sensitive too much.

Maybe I am, but it's definitely more uneven than Garritan CFX - or even my Yamaha C3.
YMMV, of course.


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX & Steinway D - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: gmaster] #2734044
05/04/18 09:00 AM
05/04/18 09:00 AM
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Erard Offline
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Originally Posted by gmaster
Originally Posted by Erard
@Karvala - Exactly.
I would add that every note in Garritan CFX has been triggered by a human, and the actual virtual instrument has been created later using intelligently the raw material recorded, if I understand correctly the description on the Garritan website.
As opposed to recording precisely each velocity mechanically and selling it (more or less) as is with seemingly very little post production.
I like the first approach better.

I disagree with this. First option may provide more consistency, however it can also diminish real piano feeling.


True. Still, I much prefer the result with the first option, and with Garritan CFX, for whatever reason - I think it strikes a good balance between evenness, realness of tone, response to touch.
VSL CFX does sound slightly more real - at least on the bass - that's why I feel disappointed to hear about notes sticking out.

I know that in spite of everything, I'm going to get a copy at some point and work with note edit - just trying to resist at the moment...


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX & Steinway D - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2734054
05/04/18 09:58 AM
05/04/18 09:58 AM
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Hi, I'm happy that my impressions were userful to you, I'm very curious about the opinions of the more technically versed users.

I'd like to agree with Erard, I also found the Vienna Imperial very uneven. I spent too much time on the note editor and still couldn't get a really good result, even though I could improve its playability a whole lot. But I would definitely disagree with it being 'even' in its factory default state. As for the note editor, my problem is that as someone who doesn't know much about frequencies and EQs, I have no idea what to do to compensate for a particular shortcoming of any given note. They should have done that themselves before releasing it.

@karvala
You can choose any combination of mics. I haven't tried saving presets but there is a menu about presets. You might have to load one of the big presets first in order to configure it, but perhaps that is not true. But I was definitely able to add or mute microphones to existing presets, it'll load the samples and then you can use the volume slider. Now for the playability, I don't know enough yet because I haven't found a good velocity config yet. I messed around with it and found a somewhat ok setting, and even with that, it feels very playable and responsive. It really feels like touching an instrument, in the sense that the keys of my digital piano suddenly feel like they have 'weight', and that my hands feel different while playing it. That's something that so far only American Concert D, Garritan CFX and Vienna Imperial have given me, so my first impression is good as far as that is concerned. But the uneven notes and irregularities of the release samples are very distracting to me, which is why I am curious what you and the others will have to say about it, because I might be a bit one the 'very sensitive' side here.

I definitely agree on the playability of the Garritan CFX being great, especially considering it was sampled using a real pianist. How the keys can be so even is indeed a miracle. I think Karvala is right, they did a lot of good decisions and had a great instrument in a great location to work with. That's why I am very interested in more pianos from them, and why I'm so bummed out I can't buy the Authorized Steinway anymore, because I'd want to see how that one feels and sounds like, even though it is almost ten years old now. In this context, does anyone have thoughts on the Bechstein Digital? They used a robot to sample it and it feels very even as well, unfortunately the sound doesn't satisfy me, not the sound of the piano but rather how the recordings of the microphones sound like.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: Grazilerimba] #2734071
05/04/18 11:31 AM
05/04/18 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Grazilerimba
In this context, does anyone have thoughts on the Bechstein Digital? They used a robot to sample it and it feels very even as well, unfortunately the sound doesn't satisfy me, not the sound of the piano but rather how the recordings of the microphones sound like.

They let you demo for 30 days and get your money back if you do not like. I tried the demo and found a few issues. The velocity curve was a bit steppy. What I mean is that there a bit of a volume drop, very slight, with each change in velocity layer, but it then catches up and surpasses the previous layer. Note to note timbre varied too much for my taste with some notes sticking out. All in all, I felt like it was fighting me the whole time. The string-eq function is a cpu hog, the most I've seen of any piano vst, and I couldn't run it on an i7 4 GHz system without dropouts. Had to leave it off. The sound did not really gel with me either. In the end I took the refund and moved on. Wish VSL and others had a policy like this!

As far as Garritan CFX, sampling techniques, and what I said before, I think you only need 20 or so well sampled layers and above this just bloats the library, but sounds nice on the marketing brochure. The use of a robot means you may get a better distribution of samples from pp to ff versus a human unless the human is well trained, typically a classically trained pianist is best. Sampling at these levels takes many weeks in the studio, 8 hours a day, constantly banging the keys. Humans get fatigued unless they can trade off or can take it slower. In the end a robot, cannot hear and make the judgments (at least not yet) that a human can. You still need a person with a good, well trained ear to align note to note layers and know when to exclude certain samples.

In all libraries, samples are normalized to the same volume level. The engine scales volume with velocity so you do not have to build this into the samples. The reason Garritan CFX sounds so smooth, in addition to the piano being well set up and evenly sampled, is somewhat because they blended mics for the close position, but mostly because Jeff did an amazingly detailed job in the programming. He put in custom volume and envelope shaping as well as eq adjustments for each group of samples and in some cases individual samples. Note they did screw up on on sample around D4 and had to throw it out. So in reality there are only 87 notes sampled and not 88. The pedaling was also well scripted which is something you need to really understand from a players perspective.

VSL is more focused on serving the score composing audience as they are offering this library along with others available and to be released recorded on their Synchron stage. These are intended to be used together and the mic placements set up to facilitate blending these libraries together; thus you will see a lot of mono, off center, and heavily ambient mics. Offering this as a performance tool for the hobbyest or professional player is a second priority. It will be a happy accident if this does indeed set a new benchmark for playabiltiy.

Last edited by bsntn99; 05/04/18 12:08 PM.
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: Grazilerimba] #2734077
05/04/18 12:09 PM
05/04/18 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Grazilerimba

[regarding Garritan] That's why I am very interested in more pianos from them, and why I'm so bummed out I can't buy the Authorized Steinway anymore, because I'd want to see how that one feels and sounds like, even though it is almost ten years old now.

You might be interested in the Steinway patches in Garritan Personal Orchestra 5. The pianos are one part of a much larger orchestral library, so it's hard to say whether it would be worthwhile to you or not. Still, I could make a good case that the Concert D patch improves upon the Garritan Authorized Steinway (GAS), since it has sustain pedal samples (not present in GAS Full or Basic versions) and release samples (not present in GAS Basic version), and perhaps more importantly it uses the same basic process I'd developed from projects that came after GAS, such as CFX. Off the top of my head, I recall using about 10 velocity layers for the Concert D patch. It should have similar evenness to the CFX, but overall it's not going to be on the level of CFX. There's also a B and a soft-pedal-only patch called Intimate D that I added for GPO5. None of these patches provide velocity curve or partial/re-pedaling.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2734078
05/04/18 12:15 PM
05/04/18 12:15 PM
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Hi Grazilerimba,
Thanks for writing your detailed impressions / review here. Thank you. Interested to know what you think.

I'm surprised VSL haven't thoroughly checked enough beforehand for out-of-tune samples and uneven notes that "stick out" as too loud or too soft. That's pretty bad quality control, in what is otherwise a classy, very expensive product. A shame.
I'm sure if you contact VSL by email and give them details of your findings and explain issues with specific notes, they'd be quicker to respond in getting an update to fix that.

Meanwhile, if it's possible to use their NOTE EDITOR facility to adjust "volume" and "dynamic range" per key individually, you might be able to tame some of those "sticking out" loud notes or quiet notes....?

[Linked Image]

I don't have any more information about this other than what I can see in screenshot above, but it looks like you can. (This is a nice feature. Glad they've included it. A bit like Pianoteq Pro and Bechstein Digital also include these clever 88 note editors a bit like a graphic EQ layout for the settings per key)

Although, I'd imagine things might get tricky if there's unevenness within the key response itself - rather than basic overall "global" volume of one key - but rather some awkward velocity layer steps within that key - eg. if one key plays okay at fff, ff, f, mf, m, mp, but feels too loud when you're trying to play p, pp, or ppp, then it's not simply a case of turning that key's whole volume in the note editor, because even it it succeeds in quietening the p ranges for that key, it would be turning down the f ranges as well - which were maybe okay before - so that key still won't feel right afterwards. It's just moving the problem elsewhere.
You could try increasing the "dynamic range" while compensating with the "volume" to try applying some ballpark "downwards expansion" (like an expander / gate's gain law - the opposite of compression really) to push the quiet levels even quieter without shifting the average volume down too much, but that will probably also exaggerate the top fff levels higher too if you're balancing to the average middle of the note velocity ranges.
With a lot of fiddling and A/B comparison you might be able to find a compromise that you prefer to the factory default, but it's an miserable job to have to do for so many bad keys.

Likewise, if the NOTE EDITOR does allow you to add EQ per note (I don't know if that's true) then softening some bright notes or brightening any dull notes might be possible too - but again, it's probably each key's velocity curve rather than the "global" EQ per key that needs tweaking. In any case, that's still a job VSL should have sorted already.

Does VSL CFX include any kind of advanced sample key map editor in the settings / menus / GUI, like you can find in Kontakt (full version) where user can move the velocity layer thresholds manually and re-voice each note? That's what you need to look for.

I've looked on VSL's website but there's no info about it, and no downloadable PDF manual for CFX. Unless you're already a customer then you have to log in to access your downloads. But I'm not.
So maybe if you actually have the PDF manual for VSL CFX somewhere, you could perhaps upload it please(?) and provide a weblink so everybody here could also take a look and read manual and learn what the software can and cannot do in detail. We'd also be more likely to come up with informed advice how to best adjust advanced settings and fix those bad notes.

Out of interest, when you purchased it from VSL, was there anything at all mentioned in the EULA about refunds? Or your consumer rights to 14 day refund for online purchases?
AFAIK that law does apply even to software, but only if you've bought software and haven't downloaded it yet (which is unlikely!!!) then you can supposedly change your mind about purchase within 14 days and request a refund. But once you've downloaded the software, you are past the point of no return. In any event, VSL's rules for their products and their EULA and your consumer rights ought to have been outlined to you from VSL in whatever agreement they made you click to agree before installing it.

Originally Posted by Grazilerimba
I'm so bummed out I can't buy the Authorized Steinway anymore, because I'd want to see how that one feels and sounds like, even though it is almost ten years old now.

I have the Garritan Authorised Steinway Pro edition. If you'd like me to render a MIDI file for you with Authorised Steinway so you can compare something directly to CFX, I don't mind.
It's certainly not my favourite software Steinway, but is quite good for classical works if you like a more distant-miked, ambient acoustic hall type sound, but it doesn't offer the kind of close, clean, detailed, intimate, lifelike sound I like from a piano. There are 5 mic perspectives (Under the lid / Player / Close / Side Stage / Classic) but they're all similar in being too distant sounding. Even the player perspective sounds almost like a room mic! The under the lid mics are perhaps the most close "up front" sounding, but even they too have rather thin, anemic sound, lacking deep bass energy. It sounds okay when you're playing some appropriate dreamy Debussy or soft, gentle classical stuff in the middle of the keyboard - sounds a lot like most classical recordings sound - lots of distance and space in the sound, off-axis mic colouration, etc. Perfectly fine if you're the audience listener, but if you're the actual pianist, it leaves you wanting more direct sound, I think. You can use another library to mimic that kind of sound by cutting some bass, dulling the treble, reducing dynamic range, adding lots of reverb, turning up the release samples, etc. and mimic the "sound" of the G.A.S. library, but you can't go the other way and adjust G.A.S. to sound clean, dry and snappy like Ravenscroft. It isn't as versatile as an all-rounder for a pianist, but if you need the more distant mic setup character of classical piano recital hall music it's a good match.
The best demo online is probably this YouTube video.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: Grazilerimba] #2734083
05/04/18 12:42 PM
05/04/18 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Grazilerimba

@karvala
You can choose any combination of mics. I haven't tried saving presets but there is a menu about presets. You might have to load one of the big presets first in order to configure it, but perhaps that is not true. But I was definitely able to add or mute microphones to existing presets, it'll load the samples and then you can use the volume slider. Now for the playability, I don't know enough yet because I haven't found a good velocity config yet. I messed around with it and found a somewhat ok setting, and even with that, it feels very playable and responsive. It really feels like touching an instrument, in the sense that the keys of my digital piano suddenly feel like they have 'weight', and that my hands feel different while playing it. That's something that so far only American Concert D, Garritan CFX and Vienna Imperial have given me, so my first impression is good as far as that is concerned. But the uneven notes and irregularities of the release samples are very distracting to me, which is why I am curious what you and the others will have to say about it, because I might be a bit one the 'very sensitive' side here.


Thanks, that's very helpful to know. Might be tempted at some point, but right now their marketing strategy is actively putting me off.

Originally Posted by Grazilerimba

I definitely agree on the playability of the Garritan CFX being great, especially considering it was sampled using a real pianist. How the keys can be so even is indeed a miracle. I think Karvala is right, they did a lot of good decisions and had a great instrument in a great location to work with. That's why I am very interested in more pianos from them, and why I'm so bummed out I can't buy the Authorized Steinway anymore, because I'd want to see how that one feels and sounds like, even though it is almost ten years old now. In this context, does anyone have thoughts on the Bechstein Digital? They used a robot to sample it and it feels very even as well, unfortunately the sound doesn't satisfy me, not the sound of the piano but rather how the recordings of the microphones sound like.


I have the Bechstein Digital Grand (their marketing strategy positively enticed me - 30-day money back guarantee AND 50% academic discount). I think it's an interesting instrument; quite different to most others that I have. In some ways it's a complement to the CFX; whereas that is ideal for C19th romantic repertoire, that Bechstein is fairly poor at that. By contrast, for both early and late C18th music (e.g. Bach and Mozart) I find it works quite well. It's very much about the individual note rather than a blended sound; quite a square attack on each tone. I like the range of sound customisation options it offers, including the ability to manipulate four EQ parameters on a note-by-note basis (per-note editing is definitely a positive in the VSL CFX to me), the global warmth control, the sound stage dial (an interesting alternative to the usual room reverb) and the sample-bases aura which works well with more distant sound stage (though I think the algorithmic aura sounds pretty bad). It always sounds like a Bechstein, but you can shape the sound a surprising amount without it becoming hopelessly unrealistic which tends to happen in other instruments.

So there are definitely some positives for me, and in a limited range of repertoire I can make use of it. There are also some major downsides. The resource demands are absurd; I usually run top and side mics only and resource considerations are part of that (I'm not wild about the sound of the room mic either). The unforgiving note attack makes it quite low on playability to me - playing it feels more like a discipline than a pleasure. The dynamic range is surprisingly and disappointingly limited even turned up to max. There is a lack of repedal and partial pedal support in spite of the documentation (this has been confirmed by them; they tell me there is a sort of small partial pedal effect in there, but it's so small I can't really detect it). Finally, it has VERY poor sustain from the mid-range up, which at a stroke would wipe out a lot of potential repertoire. To an extent it might be argued that this is a characteristic of an acoustic Bechstein, but nothing like to this extent. It's almost like someone forgot to include the release samples.

Overall, I'd say it's alright in some ways, and if you're into C18th repertoire you could do a lot worse, but it's limitations are quite severe and above all, to me it's fundamentally not an enjoyable instrument to play.


Last edited by karvala; 05/04/18 12:45 PM.

Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2734105
05/04/18 02:02 PM
05/04/18 02:02 PM
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Italy
Erard Offline
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Another rendering - again with Garritan CFX - three mic perspectives, at different levels, mixed together:

waveFile


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX & Steinway D - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2734127
05/04/18 03:57 PM
05/04/18 03:57 PM
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Wow what a great topic this is....!!.

It was very helpfull to read that the VSL CFX in comparison with the Garritan CFX had a more powerfull bass ,but a less convincing and musical discant.
That is enough for me to dismiss it, because for the music i play and compose the melody registers are the main focus and i like a modest bass far more than a dominant thunderous sounding bass register that i have to cut to make it work for my purposes.
The main reason i dislike the Ravenscroft,...thunderous bass, slightly cold and digital sounding melody and upper octaves.
Sonic Couture Hammersmith has a very thin sounding high end too.

I am in love with my CinePiano , because it has nailed those warm and fat melody notes, so desperately missing in most libraries.
Thanks to all of you for helping me saving good money !
I will spend it on the Joshua Bell violin vst that i'm lurking after for some time now, but quite expensive....




Last edited by pianistje; 05/04/18 03:58 PM.
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2734129
05/04/18 04:14 PM
05/04/18 04:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
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Sweden
TheodorN Offline
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TheodorN  Offline
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Posts: 2,381
Sweden
Yes, a very helpful topic, a must-read for all considering the VSL CFX. Would be great if members of GearSlutz, KVRAudio, VI-Control and other forums, would share the link to this topic.

Regarding CinePiano, I'd be interested in knowing how it matches up to Piano in Blue. Been eyeing that one for some time now. I'd guess it's an improvement, but given the history behind the piano sampled for Piano in Blue, it's very appealing, despite of any potential playability flaws.


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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: TheodorN] #2734132
05/04/18 04:39 PM
05/04/18 04:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 272
The Netherlands
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pianistje Offline
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The Netherlands
Originally Posted by TheodorN
Yes, a very helpful topic, a must-read for all considering the VSL CFX. Would be great if members of GearSlutz, KVRAudio, VI-Control and other forums, would share the link to this topic.

VI-Control has discussed the VSL CFX extensively, but no where near as helpfull as this topic for me.
But VI-Control is where the best string library discussions of the www take place....unmatched
Quote

Regarding CinePiano, I'd be interested in knowing how it matches up to Piano in Blue. Been eyeing that one for some time now. I'd guess it's an improvement, but given the history behind the piano sampled for Piano in Blue, it's very appealing, despite of any potential playability flaws.

I don't have Piano in Blue for the many flaws it had playabilty wise....of course based on secondary info..always hard to judge this way as i found out with some of the libraries i bought.
Together with the Garritan CFX the CinePiano has no weak registers, properly tuned and allows for quite drastic sound sculpting without getting lost in to many mic options.
The bass notes in the CinePiano have o so slightly abrupt velocity switching, but for some reason i don't mind adjusting my technique accordingly.
As a professional pianotuner/technician and semi-pro pianist i have encountered many different piano's i lost count.
Funny thing is that some pianists in the secondary bracket (not absolute worldclass), sometimes complain about why pedals work the way they do on a specific grand piano.
To loose, stiff or shallow.....and the same goes for slightly different regulation of course.....
It seems few of them have a hard time correcting their playing style on the fly when the grand piano differs from their idea of an ideal grand piano.
I am more of a person that takes an instrument as it is and make the best of it.....but then again i don't have to pull off some extremely difficult classical repertoir in front of a demanding audience.

However when buying vst's i don't have to deal with what i do not like and for me sound surpasses minor playabilty issues,...easier for me to adjust my playing style than getting used to something i don't really like soundwise.
Furthermore I am to lazy to spend days looking for that sound if the library presets have a meh factor to begin with.

Last edited by pianistje; 05/04/18 04:48 PM.
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: pianistje] #2734133
05/04/18 04:42 PM
05/04/18 04:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,445
UK
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Alexander Borro Offline
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Alexander Borro  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,445
UK
Originally Posted by pianistje

The main reason i dislike the Ravenscroft,...thunderous bass, slightly cold and digital sounding melody and upper octaves.


sort of off topic I know, but I think it does help when you change the timbre shift down one or two notches and push up the tone to compensate so it doesn't muffle to much, it really does change the character of this VI in a good way IMO, for me anyway.

Depending on speaker and/or headphones you may wish to EQ it a bit also, because the bass will become even more heavy with a negative timbre shift. The ravens can become sweeter, warmer and fuller sounding instrument than the default settings with a bit of tweaking in the manner I described in middle to upper ranges taking that harsher more metallic bite away somewhat.


Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
[Linked Image] 12x ABF recitals.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: Alexander Borro] #2734134
05/04/18 04:48 PM
05/04/18 04:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 272
The Netherlands
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pianistje Offline
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pianistje  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 272
The Netherlands
Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
Originally Posted by pianistje

The main reason i dislike the Ravenscroft,...thunderous bass, slightly cold and digital sounding melody and upper octaves.


sort of off topic I know, but I think it does help when you change the timbre shift down one or two notches and push up the tone to compensate so it doesn't muffle to much, it really does change the character of this VI in a good way IMO, for me anyway.

Depending on speaker and/or headphones you may wish to EQ it a bit also, because the bass will become even more heavy with a negative timbre shift. The ravens can become sweeter, warmer and fuller sounding instrument than the default settings with a bit of tweaking in the manner I described in middle to upper ranges taking that harsher more metallic bite away somewhat.

Ah thanks !!,....i will give it a try and maybe i will change my mind about the Ravenscroft.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2734153
05/04/18 05:54 PM
05/04/18 05:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,159
Sydney, Australia
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sullivang Online blank
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sullivang  Online Blank
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,159
Sydney, Australia
I still haven't heard any demo from either Garritan or this new VSL one that sounds as good as the sound they got in the "Yamaha Sessions" demos, e.g: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHn56w1Nwow That's one fine sounding piano!

Greg

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2734155
05/04/18 06:09 PM
05/04/18 06:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 36
Tenerife-Canary Island-Spain
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sorrownightingale Offline
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sorrownightingale  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 36
Tenerife-Canary Island-Spain
I bought the standard VSL CFX version...
First of all, it is the piano VST with the most authentic and realistic dynamics ... I own Garritan CFX, Imperial Vienna, Production Grand, American Concert D, etc., the piano responds to all the nuances, from pp to ff without bothering!!! and the connection with the keyboard is better than the Garritan CFX, the instrument feels authentic, you forget that it is a VST!!

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ao4ZOLlCXwBRg8YG_5b37A7ZViB1Xg

Midi from e-competition, Presets Player Deca Tree, no EQ, only presets

Last edited by sorrownightingale; 05/04/18 06:13 PM.
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