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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733284
05/01/18 11:53 AM
05/01/18 11:53 AM
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Good point, Graz. Nice BS filter!

Also Gombessa: Nice catch. How can they play a note 420 times, then then next, and so on for 88 notes ... without retuning?

My addition to this: Does anyone really need 4200 samples per note? Or even 420?
We got excited a decade ago when we saw things rise from 3-per to 10-per and even 18-per.
But more is not necessarily better, and 4200-per is just ridiculous.

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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733288
05/01/18 12:05 PM
05/01/18 12:05 PM
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France
Frédéric L Online content
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The Vienna Imperial had up to 100 velocity levels. The maximum of plain MIDI is 127. But we can multiply it with pedals (Vienna Imperial has dedicated samples depending of the forte and una corda pedals). releases could multiply the number of samples too. They depends of the initial velocity and when you release the note, this could explain how many sample you have. Higher notes have no damper, then, no release samples are needed.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: propianist] #2733296
05/01/18 12:21 PM
05/01/18 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by propianist
Yes of course, it will inevitably be compared against the Garritan CFX, simply because it's also a "Yamaha CFX" instrument - and we know that Abbey Road Studios already did a very good job sampling Garritan's CFX library and that's a tough act to follow, probably the best virtual piano on the market today - but the same comparison could rightly be made of ANY new virtual piano asking us to part with our money.
They are all competing for sales against what is already out there in the world, and what has been done before.
...
So all new virtual pianos that are introduced into today's market must all being compared to Garritan CFX already. If that's currently the best product and costs £149, why should we pay any more for anything else? Why should we bother buying anything cheaper if we know it's inferior? Even if they're "Steinway" samples and not supposed to sound like a "Yamaha CFX" they're still gonna be compared to Garritan CFX because their primary task is still to replicate the sound of a recorded concert grand piano, first and foremost, and if Garritan CFX is the no 1 product currently deemed the best so far at doing that job, it's the industry yardstick all new products have to aspire to. Companies should ask themselves "Can we sample pianos better than Abbey Road Studios? Are we using better mics / preamps / AD converters / do we have better mic placements? Can we build a better mousetrap?" Are we just trying to jump on a commercial bandwagon by knocking together a suitable piano collection (Arturia / Native Akoustik, etc.) to include as part of our larger software bundle package? Are we just trying to sell a few more piano libraries on the strength of our few previous successes over a decade ago and our still lingering big name reputation? (Synthogy)

Rather than asking is VSL's new CFX as good as Garritan's? We should ask is every new software piano at least as good or better than the best we've already got? If it's not, why did the company even bring it to market? Nobody would try to market a 200MHz computer with 16Mb of RAM these days? The technology status quo has moved forward a long way. So any new software piano these days must be able to compete with the best that's out there already, if it wants to be taken seriously. And the competitive battle is not to deliver one particular brand of piano better than somebody else, but to deliver a concert grand piano (whichever brand) to a level of realism better than everybody else before has.


For the older piano libraries that are out there, I certainly hope that some of them see that there's still some sales available if they repackage their sample set as an iOS instrument. The computer-based software pianos have moved on, but as we're still size-limited in the mobile world these companies really could give the Ravenscroft some competition in the mobile space. I for one would be happy to buy Galaxy's Vintage D as an AUv3 for my phone/iPad.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733401
05/01/18 10:02 PM
05/01/18 10:02 PM
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Wish they'd offered a package with just close and mid mics. I doubt I'd ever use the 'ambience' mics. The standard package is missing the close-2 mic, which looks like the one I'd want along with both mids (only one of those in the standard package). I'm assuming you need the full package for the player preset, which does sound nice. The But $420 on sale? I gambled on the VSL Vienna Imperial based on the number of velocity levels but have always felt it's not as enjoyable to play as other virtual pianos I own and don't use it that much. Would still love to try this though.

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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733436
05/02/18 03:00 AM
05/02/18 03:00 AM
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Why do these demos sound a little low-fi to me? Like they were recorded poorly? Is that supposed to be resonance? It sounds like static.


Roland FP-90 - TEC BC - MIDI Expression
Kontakt - Arturia Piano V - Sonivox Eighty-Eight - Spitfire Symphony Orchestra

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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: puremusic] #2733449
05/02/18 04:21 AM
05/02/18 04:21 AM
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I asked VSL support about number of velocities. I got reply:

We found that a minimum of 60 Velocity Layers are a good number to capture a concert grand. A great advantage with the Yamaha CFX is a high number of Release Samples that makes for a perfect playing experience. We reached a sample count of up to 4200 sample per key (that's for all mics).

Wonder, what is maximum of Velocity Layers if minimum is 60?

Last edited by Rychubil; 05/02/18 04:23 AM.

Roland FP-30, PV - Compact Grand, Kurzweil PC361, Roland CM-110, ATH-M50X, Roland Quad capture, Cornet Olds Ambasador, Trumpet Getzen Bravura 98B.
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733453
05/02/18 05:04 AM
05/02/18 05:04 AM
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Hopefully not, but that may be some cunning response..
"we found that a minimum of 60 velocity layers are a good number..." - not saying how many they have, they may just as well have 30, followed by the maximum sample count per key :))
Although given the number of layers in their other piano, they may have 60 layers per key.

I'm not in the market, but it would be nice to hear impressions and some beautiful recordings when more users get it smile

Last edited by mcoll; 05/02/18 05:04 AM.
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733455
05/02/18 05:29 AM
05/02/18 05:29 AM
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Well we can do some fast and dirty calculations for the the samples. We know there are 238040 samples in the Full Library. If we make a crude assumption of equality across mic perspectives and 88 keys, and we assume that there are three sample sets (sustain on, sustain off, una corda), then it comes out to an average of 90 samples per key. Some of those assumptions may well be incorrect, but this gives a ballpark figure. The "up to 4200 samples per key" claim, even if aggregated across all mic perspectives and all pedal conditions, indicates that the sampling was not even across the 88 notes, so some may have more than 90 (the claim suggests up to 140, although anything above 127 wouldn't really make sense), and some less (perhaps as low as 40, but perhaps they had most set to 60 and a few in the middle with higher levels?). The claims are somewhat full of hyperbole, but it seems clear from the volume of samples that there are going to be an adequate number of samples per key in any condition. It seems unlikely that they'll be going down below 10 in any situation, for example.

Last edited by karvala; 05/02/18 06:09 AM.

Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733502
05/02/18 10:02 AM
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If the actual product really sounds as good as this video demo, then I'm interested... (even though I've got Garritan CFX Full already.)

The full price is crazy expensive though!!!
What if you don't like it after you've purchased???! You cannot send back for a refund, like buying on Amazon or ebay, or any other online seller... There's no buyer safety net - you're stuck with it, and that's a lot of cash to risk buying something blindly.
I've bought enough virtual pianos over the years to know these things NEVER sound as good as the demo.
I recently learned that the hard way (yet again!!) buying Light & Sound Concert Grand which turned out to be a complete unplayable pile of shít. But what else can ya do? There's no way to find out, other than buy it.

Shame these software piano companies can't adopt a different paradigm to sales, to make things fairer to customers - especially for very expensive single titles like this.
eg.
1. You pay up-front audition fee of £50 non-refundable to get full install to test for 7 days, with internet connection challenge/ response verification every day, then after 7 days it locks you out, and becomes useless.
2. If you didn't like it, you just delete / uninstall from hard drive. They've made £50 out of you (I've spent that or more on rubbish many times) but you had some fun, a really good satisfying trial, but at least you didn't waste £400.
3. If you love it, and want to keep, you can choose which mic perspectives you want to buy (if you're a classical / jazz / rock player you might not need every option) and just purchase what you need and prefer to.
The mic perspectives could be priced individually however the company sees fit, maybe in tiers of greater discounts if you buy more, but ultimately you're not forced to buy all 10 mic perspectives if you'll only use 1 or 2 of them. It isn't the "all or nothing" raw deal you usually get. Although you may buy them all if you pay full total price (inc your original £50 towards) if you wish.
4. Yes, they'll probably sell fewer complete 10-mic libraries, but overall, they'll sell a heck of a lot more smaller bundles of 1 or 2 or 3 mic perspectives to a lot more customers who wouldn't have bought anything otherwise.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: propianist] #2733516
05/02/18 10:40 AM
05/02/18 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by propianist

What if you don't like it after you've purchased???! You cannot send back for a refund, like buying on Amazon or ebay, or any other online seller... There's no buyer safety net - you're stuck with it, and that's a lot of cash to risk buying something blindly.
I've bought enough virtual pianos over the years to know these things NEVER sound as good as the demo.
I recently learned that the hard way (yet again!!) buying Light & Sound Concert Grand which turned out to be a complete unplayable pile of shít. But what else can ya do? There's no way to find out, other than buy it.

Shame these software piano companies can't adopt a different paradigm to sales, to make things fairer to customers - especially for very expensive single titles like this.


Yes indeed, and that's my reason for taking a pass on this. If they'd had the decency to either (a) charge a sensible price rather than notably higher than comparable VSTs; OR (b) disable the software and offer a refund for customers who don't like it (this is easily possible with individual licences); OR (c) offer a time-limited or partial functionality playable demo, then I would be a likely customer. But since they want me to hand over hundreds of Euros based on their marketing alone, with no comeback when I discover it's actually unplayable, they can forget it. I think if they had ZERO sales, they'd probably come to the conclusion that they need to do something like that, so I'm actively boycotting this product and would encourage other people to do the same.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: propianist] #2733522
05/02/18 10:52 AM
05/02/18 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by propianist

If the actual product really sounds as good as this video demo, then I'm interested... (even though I've got Garritan CFX Full already.)


Agreed, that track sounds phenomenally authentic. Assuming it was actually played from the VST, it would be nice if they released the MIDI so people could compare that to their existing VSTs/DPs.

Still, at $400 and the equivalent of an GPS anklet for your laptop, I'd prefer not to purchase a product that immediately treats me like a criminal.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733532
05/02/18 11:37 AM
05/02/18 11:37 AM
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Hi Gombessa,
Yeah, that demo sounds nice, but it's funny... every time I hear a brand new demo for a brand new, mouth-watering, exciting, fresh meat virtual concert grand I've never seen before, I always think the same...! Always think it sounds so much better than the ones I currently own, and think this must surely be "THE ONE" that I've been waiting for all these years, the solution to all my problems, the answer to my prayers, and I can't wait to pre-order and buy it. Then when it arrives it's crap.
That always happens the same. I should learn from experience, but I don't. I get addicted to the thrill of the chase, the quest for the holy grail, I pin all my hopes on the new unknown quantity being the greatest thing ever, the belief that some company out there has finally got the perfectly sampled instrument I've been dying to own, and I'm just about to discover it. All it takes is a credit card and a few keystrokes on a webpage to order it.
Sucker!!!!

It's a psychological condition of spending too many hours pouring over piano demos and websites, forum threads, A/B comparisons, YouTube videos, etc.
Looking at all their gorgeous images of the shiny Yamaha CFX in their video footage, your eyes see it, and your ears start to "hear" what your eyes are telling you. If you listened to the same track watching photo slideshow of a Korg SP170 you wouldn't get the same misty-eyed feeling.
Marketing psycho-acoustics at work. Very real.

Actually, I was just now plonking around on Vintage D, trying to copy playing the very same music I heard from the VSL CFX YouTube video, with the same rich opening chords...

Eb minor, B major, Eb minor, C major, low F in the bass, F7sus4 type rising arpeggio, Bb high fast twiddley bit, F7 again, Db major etc. whatever it is... ( Is that a famous piece? Anybody know it?)

Anyway in juxtaposition, Vintage D sounded pretty good too! Same kinda ballpark. Not exactly the same but comparable realism and quality on my headphones, once volume levels were approx equal. I think our brains greatly exaggerate the differences we think we hear, so out of context you think one sounds amazingly impressive, and assume it's the best ever, but side by side against a different piano playing the same music, the similarity is surprising. Dial the settings on Vintage D to match that big resonant sound. There is still a difference, okay, but it's not as earth-shattering as I thought at first.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733534
05/02/18 11:47 AM
05/02/18 11:47 AM
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The introductory price is not bad, $222, about the same as the Garritan CFX, which only has three microphone pairs. The VSL CFX Standard has five pairs.

I'm not getting it though, since I'm not sure it'll bring anything new to the table, that I don't already have in my other piano VSTs. I use this line to cure myself of GAS!


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Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733538
05/02/18 12:01 PM
05/02/18 12:01 PM
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Good points all. I'm super happy with Garritan CFX too, and have actually been moving in the opposite direction--I use the VST for headphones, and the DP built in sounds for speakers when I use them and even recording (because it's so much more convenient than walking the laptop display and fiddling with the recording interface there).

Anyways, I'll let my ears open and see what others do with VSL. The last thing I need right now is to throw more money into the VST ring.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: propianist] #2733546
05/02/18 12:24 PM
05/02/18 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by propianist

I recently learned that the hard way (yet again!!) buying Light & Sound Concert Grand which turned out to be a complete unplayable pile of shít.


Out of curiosity, what are your main issues with LASCG? I mentioned the velocity layer alignments and jumps with some of the notes, and pedalling that needs some improvement. I plan on doing some extensive editing realigning layers and smoothing out the jumps in a couple of months when I have more time that I could share. I may also play around with the pedalling in the script. Would be good to see if I missed anything else major.

In the meantime, if you haven't already, contact Paul at LAS and let him know your complaints. He promised he is still working on improvements that may take him more time since he hit a wall with Kontakt with his current approach. I've made a couple of posts over at VI Control to make public my main issues. The more of us that let him know we are dissatisfied, the more pressure on him to make changes.

As far as VSL, they are first and foremost focused on making instruments for scoring and less for performance. I have yet to see a good playable piano vst come from a scoring focused company. I'm not a fan of bloating a library with all these velocity layers and think it's unnecessary. Even with this many layers, they still may not be aligned tonally. I'm seeing two camps, one that tries to make as smooth a library as possible and one that leaves in alignment and other issues claiming this reflects the actual piano, wear and all. We've seen you can do a competent job with 20 or so layers if well sampled and aligned. I see it more as a marketing ploy here to justify the high price.

It also doesn't seem they are using much compression, if any, which makes the library large. Pedalling and general playability is also unknown despite any marketing claims. So a lot of risk here given the price and lack of a way to actually demo the product. Bechstein at least lets you demo their product for 30 days and get a refund if you don't like it. Like many I don't trust audio demos and paid reviews.

Given the price here, the size of the library, no way to demo, and no way to make edits yourself since their engine is proprietary, it's a pass for me as well.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733559
05/02/18 01:12 PM
05/02/18 01:12 PM
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Wow, hey people, don`t wait, shoot at VSL immediately. My god, nobody order this piano here and yet full of negatives. This is not the first time that samples pianos goes for selling without demo. VSL produce for orchestra work first, and this piano is not only for orchestra but also for solo playing. I have bunch of sample pianos that I paid and collecting dust for years because I dont like them. This is a risk I took and no hard feelings after that. Do we need another piano vst ? No, there are already too many, but what if they stop to make them, what then ? I am glad for every new piano somebody produce, and its up to me if I order or not. No one piano vst will ever grow to acoustic no matter how hard we try and no one piano vst will absolutely satisfied us. So, relax, this is our hobby and we want new pianos. I will probably order this.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: propianist] #2733573
05/02/18 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by propianist
I recently learned that the hard way (yet again!!) buying Light & Sound Concert Grand which turned out to be a complete unplayable pile of shít. But what else can ya do? There's no way to find out, other than buy it.


Just wanted to chime in and say that I agree, I didn't like the Light and Sound Concert Grand either, waste of money for me. Played it for a few minutes and buried it in the grand tomb of bought and forgotten piano VSTs that I have carved out under my bed. The developer is very friendly and nice, and I guess considering that it doesn't sting quite as much (as it would have stung to have bought Hans Zimmer piano or something like that), but it's unusuable for me. The thing that really gets me though is that part of my reason for buying it was good forum reviews, people saying it's on par with the Garritan CFX in terms of playability, many others who said they really like its feel etc., and I was amazed at just how bad it felt to me when I played it myself. What were these people thinking? This has made me even more untrusting of people's opinions on piano VSTs to be honet - I've had similar experiences before, but not on this scale (where the majority of opinions were positive and then it was a stiniker). It was a remarkable experience for me.

Now as for the VSL CFX, I will get it probably until beginning of the coming week - I have just been too hyped about this for too long to not get it, especially since they give you a cheaper version which is still fully usable and they offer upgrades.

Originally Posted by bsntn99

As far as VSL, they are first and foremost focused on making instruments for scoring and less for performance.


I don't have much insight into their other products, but I wanted to say that at least the Vienna Imperial was also marketed as a piano that pleases classical pianists when being played live, and it's the same for the CFX. I'm gonna make a bold statement and say that nobody needs another piano for scoring or for use inside DAWs with midi files. The holy grail, as people in these forums often called it, is a good sounding AND well playable instrument at the same time. And there is still a lot of work to be done until that has been reached IMHO, even though Garritan's offering has come very close to it, and that's the angle from which I am gonna approach the VSL CFX, because again they make it an explicit point how well suited their new instrument is for advanced/professional pianist live use.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: bsntn99] #2733582
05/02/18 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bsntn99
Out of curiosity, what are your main issues with LASCG?

Probably better to write on the main thread about LASCG, rather than sidetrack into long discussion here... but basically, with LASCG, it said 150 missing samples when I tried to load it, had to skip them. The Kontakt screen is far too big for 1080p monitor, there's no numerical value for any sliders or pots (hence no exact repeatability of settings) unless you control them remotely via MIDI values. Pedal down resonance either doesn't work correctly or seems to be almost non-existant under certain situations. The D above middle C sticks out like a sore thumb with bright sample, as does middle C to less extent too. I knew it only had about 5 layers, but was expecting them to sound like they were appropriately spaced mappings for those given velocities, but those notes just don't work. Epic fail. Unplayable. Also, why use 32 layers for high B6, but only 5 layers for more important D3 anyway? Stupid design! Holding D4 with sustain pedal (mic mix) I was getting a repeated pulse of slow tremolo type effect after a few seconds - very weird. Many of the mic perspectives (listened to individually) sound nearly the same, with audibly bad sound quality overall, too much mechanical noise, muddy off-axis sound, thin tone. Realised that his YouTube demo is always mixing several mics together, never exposing any solo, so you never really get to hear what you're working with, just a slightly "off" blend that you think you'll probably be able to sort out once you can isolate the sources and judge, but they're all pretty ropey. And obviously Kontakt Player resets every 15 minutes too which is annoying, and had to download 5.7 to make it work because it didn't like v5.6.

Originally Posted by bsntn99
As far as VSL, they are first and foremost focused on making instruments for scoring and less for performance. I have yet to see a good playable piano vst come from a scoring focused company. I'm not a fan of bloating a library with all these velocity layers and think it's unnecessary. Even with this many layers, they still may not be aligned tonally.

Yes, agree. VSL's mic position diagram shows the position of the CFX in an orchestra floor-plan layout with most of the ambient mics in the conductor position. That's hardly how you'd choose to do it for solo pianist setup.
Not sure what you mean about "aligned"? Time aligned? Sonically coherent when blended together?
They probably record them all simultaneously and save as polyphonic wav files for editing which can be edited en masse with identical results. They should be perfectly aligned as far as each note is edited within the range compared its equivalent note in other mic perspectives. Although time delay (due to path length arrival times) will differ between mic positions and between low and high notes over the keyboard range for any given mic.

Originally Posted by slobajudge
So, relax, this is our hobby...

Maybe for you, but some of us pro pianist types use these software instruments for work. (Whereas say, photography is just a hobby for me, but I know some people do that for a living.)

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733621
05/02/18 04:20 PM
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I have seen this VSL CFX on bestservice.com... I hope we will have it soon on try-sound.com, then would be able to test it free.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733669
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When I say aligned, I mean note to note timbre such that you get the same level of brightness playing the same velocity level across notes. We have seen libraries where this is not the case. Mics are all recorded at the same time, so as long as they are phase aligned to compensate for distance, there should be minimal issues with blending although it's never perfect and can introduce some muddiness.

Thanks for the detailed comments on LASCG. I won't waste any more space here talking about it. As far as VSL CFX, it's a pass for me for reasons mentioned above. Interesting if you can demo on try-sound, but there is huge latency. Will be interesting to see how this compares to Garritan CFX once a few take the plunge here.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733682
05/02/18 07:56 PM
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Thanks guys for a very helpfull discussion, i truly appreciatie it and it once more underlines how subjective preferences are.
My Hammersmith pro and Ravenscroft do not work for me , althaugh i bought both of them solely relying on the positive online reviews.
To me the sound of the sampled grand+recording room surpasses playabilty. I always seem to be able to find a work around with the latter, but the former is a dead end from the start.
My latest purchase is the CinePiano from Cinesamples and till date my clear favorite.
I do like my Garritan CFX also, but it doesn’t touch my soul as much, for the lack of better words.
This new CFX from VSL maybe on my wishlist, but i’ll wait for some early user reviews.

A small question though, Samsung just realeased SSD’s 860 pro and EVO,..... do you think it will help the overall processing speed of demanding piano vst’s ? Because althaugh i have an I7 processor, , SSD’s, RME soundcard, 16GB ram, the Ravenscroft with all mic perspectives activated starts to struggle during intensive playing.....not that i use the Ravenscroft anymore, but with the focus on this new demanding CFX ?

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733686
05/02/18 08:33 PM
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Hears about VSL CFX.

Sees the hype.

Goes and plays Garritan CFX.

...Nope! No need to buy another CFX! I'm happy with what I have! cool

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: pianistje] #2733745
05/03/18 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by pianistje
A small question though, Samsung just realeased SSD’s 860 pro and EVO,..... do you think it will help the overall processing speed of demanding piano vst’s ? Because althaugh i have an I7 processor, , SSD’s, RME soundcard, 16GB ram, the Ravenscroft with all mic perspectives activated starts to struggle during intensive playing.....not that i use the Ravenscroft anymore, but with the focus on this new demanding CFX ?


On my laptops with RME interface and Garritan CFX Full, the old Samsung 850 EVO (SATA) drive provided the same latency as a new Samsung 961 (nvme). Also, I noticed no difference during daily use of other programs. YMMV:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...piano-or-pcie-is-a-must.html#Post2710346

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: newer player] #2733765
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Originally Posted by newer player
Originally Posted by pianistje
A small question though, Samsung just realeased SSD’s 860 pro and EVO,..... do you think it will help the overall processing speed of demanding piano vst’s ? Because althaugh i have an I7 processor, , SSD’s, RME soundcard, 16GB ram, the Ravenscroft with all mic perspectives activated starts to struggle during intensive playing.....not that i use the Ravenscroft anymore, but with the focus on this new demanding CFX ?


On my laptops with RME interface and Garritan CFX Full, the old Samsung 850 EVO (SATA) drive provided the same latency as a new Samsung 961 (nvme). Also, I noticed no difference during daily use of other programs. YMMV:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...piano-or-pcie-is-a-must.html#Post2710346



Ah thanks !!!!

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733787
05/03/18 05:22 AM
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Drive latency doesn't affect audio latency in quite the way you might expect.

All of my existing Kontakt-based VSTs and my older standalone Ivory v1 will load into memory a large segment of audio data. So most of the time the sound you hear is from that memory-resident base.

Disk fetch need only take place on sustained notes when "early sound" from the resident set nears exhaustion. And the elapsed time to exhaustion is long enough for even a slow HDD to fetch the needed data.

The latency you experience generally comes from other sources, principally from the Windows audio processing chain.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733789
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SSDs are good for significantly improving load speeds over HDDs, but even a good SATAIII SSD drive is not used to throughput capacity for any on-the-fly loading of samples that I've seen. Memory is sometimes seen as a limitation, but again if you have enough system memory (generally 8GBs or more for a smooth experience with Windows 7/8/10), and you're allowing the VST enough memory if has a parameter for that (some do), then this is rarely a limiting factor as well. Performance issues with VSTs are most commonly one of three things:-

(1) CPU ability to handle the processing of large numbers of voices and resonances in real time (the Bechstein Digital Grand is perhaps the most severe in this respect).
(2) Latencies that are too low for the audio chip to handle in real time (and depending on the audio chip, this can interact with (1) as well).
(3) Audio clipping by excessive gain within the VST (the Ivory interface and UVIWorkstation are both particularly susceptible to this).


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733821
05/03/18 09:47 AM
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A new sample library, what could be gassier?

I was curious about this so have sorted out a rough demo of the Garritan CFX playing the above posted clip of its VSL counterpart. Does anyone know what this piece is?


Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733833
05/03/18 11:41 AM
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Hi Diretonic,
Thanks for that video - very interesting.
Where did you find that MIDI file? Please could you provide a weblink where we can all download it? Or is that you playing it live yourself, having listened and transcribed by ear from the VSL demo? If so, damn good job! Bravo!

Funny, if YouTube sends you an automated copyright notice, you'll at last be able to discover what the name of that piece is! Haha. Strange world we live in, where uploading an interesting unknown piece onto YouTube just to get a copyright message might be the quickest way of learning the title and composer info...

Re: Ravenscroft latency questions?
I've had Ravenscroft running for years on my old Windows XP computer (XP SP2 32 bit, 4GB RAM) and it works fine at 128 samples buffer, although my 4GB OCZ Reaper HPC DDR3 RAM was very, very fast for it's day! The RAM's 1333MHz clock speed with ultralow CAS latency timings 6-6-6-18 means it calculates to 9.002 nanoseconds latency (for the RAM module). That's actually faster than my present day Corsair Vengeance 32GB SODIMM DDR4 3000MHz 16-18-18-39 which only calculates to 10.667 nanoseconds true RAM latency, so despite technological progress, the ten-year-old desktop RAM is still quicker than today's fastest laptop RAM modules! Unbelievable but true.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: propianist] #2733838
05/03/18 12:11 PM
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Hi propianist - yeah that's me playing it live with my back to the piano while drinking a cup of tea. No, I jotted out the transcription then put the midi together in cubase alongside the VSL audio to get as much timing/mood matching as poss - hence it's part played and largely edited after the fact. I couldn't play those runs at speed without putting some time in.

I wanted to see how the sound matches for power and contrast - I think the Garritan does a creditable job for a relatively careless imitation (my ending isn't as sweet as the VSL but I think that's in the playing).

I half-wondered if I'd get a rap over the knuckles via YouTube for plagiarising a non-public domain piece - as you say, an odd but maybe effective way to identify it.


midi file


Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL [Re: slobajudge] #2733840
05/03/18 12:24 PM
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Hi Dire Tonic,
Well, you did a good job however you did it! Thankyou for uploading the MIDI file.
I thought maybe you'd used some kind of WAV > MIDI music transcription software, like this which you can find online, but they only seem to work okay for simple tracks then fall apart with more complex fast runs like this.

I'll try your MIDI file in Vintage D and see how it sounds as another comparison....

Regards,
propianist

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