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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731186
04/23/18 01:39 PM
04/23/18 01:39 PM
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Unsurprisingly the pedal sensor unit looks not unlike the one that’s used in ES7
[Linked Image]

I’ll be using this one in my DIY controller and I analyzed it a lot. If you happen to find pedal position and actual values don’t match, I can help you. I’ve had that problem which was why I disassembled it in the first place (and incidentally broke the wooden enclosure so I ordered a new one and that would serve a great purpose)

Last edited by CyberGene; 04/23/18 01:42 PM.

Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: CyberGene] #2731205
04/23/18 03:18 PM
04/23/18 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
The other two pedals however get their resistance only from pressing against the sensor levers, which are pushed down by much more substantial springs, as you can see below (view from the back, so una corda on the right - see how the spring on the left, for the damper pedal, is much thinner). So the washers have to be thicker or otherwise they would probably bend when pushing against the sensor levers.


This of course makes sense. But as you mention, why go to the trouble of customizing washer thickness for the different pedals, and yet include the adjustable capstans which are completely without function? smile Perhaps some BOM-cost versus scale decision, perhaps a manufacturing mystery!


Originally Posted by CyberGene
Unsurprisingly the pedal sensor unit looks not unlike the one that’s used in ES7


I have to admit this gave me a chuckle. It really looks like they took the ES7 pedal unit, replaced the pedals with a shorter lever arms, and mounted it upside down!


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2731215
04/23/18 04:00 PM
04/23/18 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
and yet include the adjustable capstans which are completely without function?

This was obviously done because they want to reuse the same pedal rod assembly, without wanting to change manufacturing steps, in the NV20, where these rods will have function, i.e. the middle rod moves the damper weights for sostenuto and the left rod actually shifts the action! wink

Originally Posted by Gombessa
I have to admit this gave me a chuckle. It really looks like they took the ES7 pedal unit, replaced the pedals with a shorter lever arms, and mounted it upside down!

I wouldn't be surprised if we would find the same sensor unit underneath a CA98 or CA97 or their siblings...

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731219
04/23/18 04:13 PM
04/23/18 04:13 PM
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Well, in honesty, that’s the optional triple pedal unit for ES7 and it has very well made contactless optical sensors with continuous values for all three pedals (measured through a voltmeter, although MIDI values for sostenuto and soft are binary and damper pedal is split into only 4 regions). The pedals are assumed to mimic grand pedal feel which I can confirm, especially compared to the flimsy and very soft stock pedal (which is using a potentiometer). So it would hardly go better than that and I see no reason for them not to reuse it fully or partially in higher end models.

Last edited by CyberGene; 04/23/18 04:15 PM.

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Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2731224
04/23/18 05:04 PM
04/23/18 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

One small observation which I'm sure you've already noticed--the capstan on your damper rod is contacting directly on the wooden cylinder lever. On my NV10 (and on JoBert's pics of his), there is a small leather disk about 5mm thick that should be glued to the bottom of the cylinder, and the damper rod should be pushing against that instead. It may have fallen off, or not been installed at the factory? In any case, I think that may be part of the reason your damper rod was loose?


Thank you for this observation. I have totally missed the existence of the leather disc. Of course, that is the reason for the loose pedal!

I had to open the front panel now again by myself. I looked very carefully but couldn't find any trace of the leather disc inside the piano. If I look at the wooden cylinder close enough, I can see some glue residues there. I also noticed that the thin leather piece above the L-shaped screw is also almost separate (see the first picture). I straightened it and pushed back to it's place (see the second picture). I don't know if it will stay there, though.

I would say there is absolutely some problem with the glue and leather combination. Perhaps the climate changes during transportation have resulted in a loose contact. Perhaps the leather disc has come off before the piano was assembled (the piano was already assembled when I got it).

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731228
04/23/18 05:14 PM
04/23/18 05:14 PM
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Virginia
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Great posts guys! KJ will be able to use this knowledge to aid his engineers resolve the “sticky” problem.


Kawai MP11 (v1), iMac 2017, Yamaha HS8's, Sennheiser 650, Focusrite 2i4, Pianoteq 5, Steinway Model A, Mason and Hamlin Model AA
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731236
04/23/18 05:40 PM
04/23/18 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
So it seems that these leather patches are either prone to fall off or to be forgotten during assembly... frown

Anyway, jnx, I would ask Kawai to provide one, so that you don't have excessive wear on the wooden part.


I contacted my Nordic dealer about the loose pedal and they organized the technician to regulate it. Actually I don't know if there is any direct Kawai contact here where I live.

Originally Posted by JoBert

Oh, and congrats on your NV10! And thanks for the pic and pointing out that the front panel is removable.


You're welcome. It was actually the DIY solution made by Gombessa that I had in my mind. It seems that this issue has been now resolved.

Originally Posted by JoBert

Also regarding your headphones' noise floor: I was curious and tested with my piano. My headphones are HD 599 (50 Ohm, I believe), and I hear nothing. Just total silence. For the experiment I turned the volume knob to the maximum and also set the sound setting to "high volume headphones", but still nothing. I didn't want to damage my ears with that loud setting, so I didn't play anything, but I did press the damper pedal (so I got the damper-felt-on-strings "woosh" sound) and I silently pressed a key so that I didn't get an actual note, but only the simulated hammer fallback sound when I released the key. Even then I did not hear any background hiss or white noise or similar.
(Well, my ears are not the youngest, but if it were as bad on my piano as you described it for your piano, I think I should have heard at least something.)
I wonder if that is maybe related to the line in level too? Have you tried turning the physical line in level knob all the way to "min" (counter clockwise)? Do you then still have the noise floor in the headphones? (I must admit that I forgot to test this scenario with line in turned to "max", so I can't say if it would have made a difference with my piano, but I can test it later today).
If you still hear it, I would ask Kawai for help to get rid of it. Maybe it's a case of a badly insulated cable or something similar.


To clarify the problem, the noise floor is totally indipendent of everything. The main volume knob, input volume knob, USB audio settings or any software settings do not impact anything. The hiss stays unaffected. I think somebody has reported high background noise levels before. Perhaps it was some early NV10 video review. Anyone else heard about this before?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731237
04/23/18 05:41 PM
04/23/18 05:41 PM
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None of this is evidence of satisfactory quality control for a $10K instrument. Do the AG's ship with these issues? Seems to me that Kawai should send out a tech, just like they do for an acoustic. He won't have to tune it. However, he could look for these kind of problems.

Last edited by TomLC; 04/23/18 05:43 PM.

Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: jnx] #2731243
04/23/18 05:54 PM
04/23/18 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jnx
Originally Posted by JoBert
So it seems that these leather patches are either prone to fall off or to be forgotten during assembly... frown

Anyway, jnx, I would ask Kawai to provide one, so that you don't have excessive wear on the wooden part.


I contacted my Nordic dealer about the loose pedal and they organized the technician to regulate it. Actually I don't know if there is any direct Kawai contact here where I live.

Originally Posted by JoBert

Oh, and congrats on your NV10! And thanks for the pic and pointing out that the front panel is removable.


You're welcome. It was actually the DIY solution made by Gombessa that I had in my mind. It seems that this issue has been now resolved.

Originally Posted by JoBert

Also regarding your headphones' noise floor: I was curious and tested with my piano. My headphones are HD 599 (50 Ohm, I believe), and I hear nothing. Just total silence. For the experiment I turned the volume knob to the maximum and also set the sound setting to "high volume headphones", but still nothing. I didn't want to damage my ears with that loud setting, so I didn't play anything, but I did press the damper pedal (so I got the damper-felt-on-strings "woosh" sound) and I silently pressed a key so that I didn't get an actual note, but only the simulated hammer fallback sound when I released the key. Even then I did not hear any background hiss or white noise or similar.
(Well, my ears are not the youngest, but if it were as bad on my piano as you described it for your piano, I think I should have heard at least something.)
I wonder if that is maybe related to the line in level too? Have you tried turning the physical line in level knob all the way to "min" (counter clockwise)? Do you then still have the noise floor in the headphones? (I must admit that I forgot to test this scenario with line in turned to "max", so I can't say if it would have made a difference with my piano, but I can test it later today).
If you still hear it, I would ask Kawai for help to get rid of it. Maybe it's a case of a badly insulated cable or something similar.


To clarify the problem, the noise floor is totally indipendent of everything. The main volume knob, input volume knob, USB audio settings or any software settings do not impact anything. The hiss stays unaffected. I think somebody has reported high background noise levels before. Perhaps it was some early NV10 video review. Anyone else heard about this before?


jnx, I did not experience this noise. However, a tech from Kawai came out and replaced a couple of wires that he said were not shielded. Could be??


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: TomLC] #2731245
04/23/18 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Well, in honesty, that’s the optional triple pedal unit for ES7 and it has very well made contactless optical sensors with continuous values for all three pedals (measured through a voltmeter, although MIDI values for sostenuto and soft are binary and damper pedal is split into only 4 regions). The pedals are assumed to mimic grand pedal feel which I can confirm, especially compared to the flimsy and very soft stock pedal (which is using a potentiometer). So it would hardly go better than that and I see no reason for them not to reuse it fully or partially in higher end models.


Ah, so I guess this is the basis for the GFP-3 3-pedal unit for the MP11SE? I had no idea Kawai was using 3x continuous optical sensors on their other pedal units, that's great to know.

Originally Posted by TomLC
None of this is evidence of satisfactory quality control for a $10K instrument. Do the AG's ship with these issues? Seems to me that Kawai should send out a tech, just like they do for an acoustic. He won't have to tune it. However, he could look for these kind of problems.


I think this is a fair statement, though on the flipside, the AGs have been out for nearly a decade now, so I would have to wonder what kind of issues they had when they (or the GranTouch before the AvantGrands) were new on the market? For me, this is the kind of inevitable early-adopter issue I was expecting and willing to live with (but that's not making any excuses for a manufacturer, just my personal level of pragmatism as a consumer).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2731253
04/23/18 06:58 PM
04/23/18 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
[ For me, this is the kind of inevitable early-adopter issue I was expecting and willing to live with (but that's not making any excuses for a manufacturer, just my personal level of pragmatism as a consumer).


Trying not to sound like I am dissatisfied. I love this piano, as I have said many times on this forum. However, leaving off parts, glue that doesn't hold, using non-shielded wires; should not be inevitable. Maybe it is for the piano industry? I actually expected the first tranche manufactured to receive extraordinary attention to insure that the initial reviews of the product were stellar.


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: jnx] #2731303
04/24/18 01:58 AM
04/24/18 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jnx
To clarify the problem, the noise floor is totally indipendent of everything. The main volume knob, input volume knob, USB audio settings or any software settings do not impact anything. The hiss stays unaffected. I think somebody has reported high background noise levels before. Perhaps it was some early NV10 video review. Anyone else heard about this before?


jnx, on my NV10 there is no audible background noise in the headphones. Tried Sennheiser HD650, Teufel Aureol Real and some cheap earbuds.

I do hear noise when the touch-screen is being updated or touched (this seems to be a separate problem with my NV10) but nothing else.

However some noticeable constant hiss comes from all speakers. This is actually similar to the CA93 here: speakers hissing and silent headphones.


Kawai Novus NV10, Kawai CA-93
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731309
04/24/18 02:49 AM
04/24/18 02:49 AM
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Had they spent more time before launching this model...
You can't accept this blunders in your top-of-the-line instrument.
Missing felts, bad wires and hissing speakers, a not so great sound system (when you are selling a joint venture with Onkyo), problems with an android device. Since 8777€ up to 9799€.

Noooo, thanks. That's not a matter of 'first batch'.
It's something deeper, I'm afraid, as it happens again and again.

Last edited by mabraman; 04/24/18 02:50 AM.

Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731316
04/24/18 03:56 AM
04/24/18 03:56 AM
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There's no question in my mind that Kawai has a higher rate of problems with its products than its competitors. No manufacturer is exempt from issues but over time it has been clear that the rate of issues is significantly higher with Kawai. They make up for it with great service when issues are reported, but I do think it's something they should look into. People deserve better than what they are getting - you shouldn't have to go through the stress of warranty claims or DIY repairs just to get what you paid for. Kawai makes very nice and innovative products, but If I was going to live on a desert island I wouldn't take take a Kawai - even if it was my favourite. I'd probably take a boring Yamaha - you rarely hear about failures with them. Roland is pretty solid too - aside from the disintegrating keytops problem of 5 years ago.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: TomLC] #2731317
04/24/18 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by TomLC
None of this is evidence of satisfactory quality control for a $10K instrument. Do the AG's ship with these issues?


Who knows, even if the early ones had shipped with a few issues we'd be unlikely to know about it. The only reason we're discussing it here is because we've got a handful of Novus owners talking in one thread, a number of which have willingly dismantled and poked about inside! I'm going out on a limb here but I'd guess there wasn't an equivalent thread for the AGs. Without that communication the hypothetical AG owner with a fault would have just poked the shop under warranty, got a tech sent out and probably thought nothing more of it.


Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: ando] #2731325
04/24/18 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ando
There's no question in my mind that Kawai has a higher rate of problems with its products than its competitors. No manufacturer is exempt from issues but over time it has been clear that the rate of issues is significantly higher with Kawai. They make up for it with great service when issues are reported, but I do think it's something they should look into. People deserve better than what they are getting - you shouldn't have to go through the stress of warranty claims or DIY repairs just to get what you paid for. Kawai makes very nice and innovative products, but If I was going to live on a desert island I wouldn't take take a Kawai - even if it was my favourite. I'd probably take a boring Yamaha - you rarely hear about failures with them. Roland is pretty solid too - aside from the disintegrating keytops problem of 5 years ago.



+1

I don’t understand why some here still deny this fact.

This has nothing to do with the fact that this is a Novus thread. There was a long-running thread for the new Rolands, and issues like these were not as prominent. Same goes for other brands, including Yamaha.

I once owned an MP10, and it took two trips to a tech and one trip to the dealer (new unit) to finally get a working instrument. On the other side, I’ve owned several Yamahas, including a Clavinova CLP380, and never did I experience any issues. The CLP was kept in a basement, and sometimes I would go for days without playing it. That’s not a big deal; however, the heater was always off during that time. When I came to the piano, the keys were almost frozen. I honestly felt that this piano would break down at some point, but I had it for two years and never a single sqeak.

I still loved my MP10, but after what I experienced and all the posts I’ve read here, I honestly believe it’s time that Kawai addresses the underlying issues. Is it quality control? Poor craftsmanship? Low quality materials? Or perhaps all of the above? That’s for Kawai to figure out and correct.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731330
04/24/18 06:52 AM
04/24/18 06:52 AM
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I don't know what is it, exactly, but is quite surprising because it's NOT how this brand delivers other items, as equally (or lower) priced uprights i.e. wich are usually perfect.

Last edited by mabraman; 04/24/18 06:54 AM.

Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: mabraman] #2731337
04/24/18 07:31 AM
04/24/18 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mabraman
I don't know what is it, exactly, but is quite surprising because it's NOT how this brand delivers other items, as equally (or lower) priced uprights i.e. wich are usually perfect.


Magraman, that is also my experience. I did not have a single problem with my previous four Kawai's. Any number of these "issues" could be the result of transportation and delivery. The NV10 is a marvelous instrument once these little irritations are solved. I still recommend it to anyone interested in a grand piano experience. And that experience should include a visit from a tech to check the action, damper system, wires to speakers, etc.(IMHO) smile

Last edited by TomLC; 04/24/18 07:43 AM.

Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731361
04/24/18 08:57 AM
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I have to say I'm not convinced this is the case. It seems a lot more people discuss Kawai here, and a lot more people tend to dig into the details of their Kawai's (maybe the type of customer they attract with their 101 action variants wink ) which of course raises more opportunities to find issues.

I remember when the rd-2000 was released, several of the first purchasers here reported numerous issues (firmware update issues, auto-off not functioning correctly, excessive play in the keyboard/action, clicking keys, incorrect led indicators etc.). And several of these resulted in returns or exchanges. There was at that time a big rd2k thead or two with people trying to replicate or diagnose problems.

On the flipside, in the many months since Yamaha's GrandTouch action has been released (and several confirmed 675/685 owners) not a single person has tmi opened one up and posted pictures or measurements from the action. There hasn't been a big owners/hands on thread. Of course that doesn't mean there are or aren't problems but it does suggest a lower level of engagement (at least non-playing engagement) among owners here who discuss such issues. They're not the ones measuring noise floors against pro audio equipment, recording speaker hiss or noticing missing leather pads on internal mechanisms, and posting about it here.



Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: ando] #2731384
04/24/18 10:22 AM
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We are spoiled with a lot of good choices these days.


Last edited by newer player; 04/24/18 07:04 PM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731402
04/24/18 11:04 AM
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It's still important to note that NU1 and NU1X 's sudden loud note problem is something that's been specifically (under)designed to behave like that. There's no fix, especially one that can be performed by the end user. In order to fix it, Yamaha will need to redesign the piano (probably from ground-up since it requires optical sensors on the hammers but those are upright hammers and to this date Yamaha don't have an implementation of upright hammer sensors).

And then we compare it to first batch quality problems that are fixable even by the user.

Night and day smile


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Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: CyberGene] #2731406
04/24/18 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
It's still important to note that NU1 and NU1X 's sudden loud note problem is something that's been specifically (under)designed to behave like that. There's no fix, especially one that can be performed by the end user. In order to fix it, Yamaha will need to redesign the piano (probably from ground-up since it requires optical sensors on the hammers but those are upright hammers and to this date Yamaha don't have an implementation of upright hammer sensors).

And then we compare it to first batch quality problems that are fixable even by the user.

Night and day smile


Good point!


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2731416
04/24/18 11:23 AM
04/24/18 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Bambers

It's a grand action, so the whole keybed will need to be removed

...

None of that is a suggestion to DIY but I'd be surprised if a acoustic tech had much of an issue? Surely should be much the same as dealing with a kawai grand with ATX.


The one complication is that the NV10 keyframe is bolted down to the chassis, it's not a sled that slides in and out of the frame. I think that means a lot of panel disassembly, including the top/front speakers, if you want to access the action.


Does this imply that the action can't be worked on by any qualified acoustic piano technician, as they would be accustomed to sliding out the action with minimal disassembly? Probably more of a post-warranty concern but still of interest.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: jfl] #2731426
04/24/18 11:57 AM
04/24/18 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jfl

Does this imply that the action can't be worked on by any qualified acoustic piano technician, as they would be accustomed to sliding out the action with minimal disassembly? Probably more of a post-warranty concern but still of interest.


Oh, I don't want to give that impression. I have NO idea, really, other than the common sense observation that it will likely be a different process than accessing the action on an acoustic. IIRC, Dave Horne has an N3X which has had action work done, and he mentioned it was quite an involved process on that hybrid as well.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: newer player] #2731501
04/24/18 04:34 PM
04/24/18 04:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
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Melbourne, Australia
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Originally Posted by newer player


Originally Posted by ando
There's no question in my mind that Kawai has a higher rate of problems with its products than its competitors. No manufacturer is exempt from issues but over time it has been clear that the rate of issues is significantly higher with Kawai.


This is impossible to know without data so we need to be careful of biases. For example, Kawai models are popular on this forum so we see a lot of Kawai user comments here. And owners are more likely to post about "problems" than post about "no problems". It helps that Kawai James is active here but that also boosts the troubleshooting posts.



I'll just make it clear here that Pianoworld is not my only source of data. I work for a music school that is mostly piano students. We also supply musical gear to our students. We have seen a significant number of complaints regarding Kawai's domestic home pianos (we don't have access to stage pianos). Practically none from Yamaha. A few from Casio. We don't deal with Roland so my impressions of them are just from friends and colleagues who own them and from here. With warranties, we practically have Kawai's rep on speed-dial. Yamaha's rep, we rarely call. My private students that I teach from home also reflect what I've seen elsewhere. This might not be a significant enough data set for some of you, but at some point we make opinions and this is my opinion. I think it's mostly Kawai owners who defend them or cite biases because they don't want it to be true. I'm not saying Kawai is making junk - I think they are basically ok but tend to have small problems that are fixable rather than fatal and expensive component breakdown. I just think they should invest a bit more time in dotting some i's and crossing some t's.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: ando] #2731517
04/24/18 05:41 PM
04/24/18 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by newer player


Originally Posted by ando
There's no question in my mind that Kawai has a higher rate of problems with its products than its competitors. No manufacturer is exempt from issues but over time it has been clear that the rate of issues is significantly higher with Kawai.


This is impossible to know without data so we need to be careful of biases. For example, Kawai models are popular on this forum so we see a lot of Kawai user comments here. And owners are more likely to post about "problems" than post about "no problems". It helps that Kawai James is active here but that also boosts the troubleshooting posts.



I'll just make it clear here that Pianoworld is not my only source of data. I work for a music school that is mostly piano students. We also supply musical gear to our students. We have seen a significant number of complaints regarding Kawai's domestic home pianos (we don't have access to stage pianos). Practically none from Yamaha. A few from Casio. We don't deal with Roland so my impressions of them are just from friends and colleagues who own them and from here. With warranties, we practically have Kawai's rep on speed-dial. Yamaha's rep, we rarely call. My private students that I teach from home also reflect what I've seen elsewhere. This might not be a significant enough data set for some of you, but at some point we make opinions and this is my opinion. I think it's mostly Kawai owners who defend them or cite biases because they don't want it to be true. I'm not saying Kawai is making junk - I think they are basically ok but tend to have small problems that are fixable rather than fatal and expensive component breakdown. I just think they should invest a bit more time in dotting some i's and crossing some t's.


Are your observations limited to DP's? Or home acoustics also?

Last edited by Grandman; 04/24/18 05:42 PM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Grandman] #2731547
04/24/18 08:53 PM
04/24/18 08:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
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Melbourne, Australia
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Grandman
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by newer player


Originally Posted by ando
There's no question in my mind that Kawai has a higher rate of problems with its products than its competitors. No manufacturer is exempt from issues but over time it has been clear that the rate of issues is significantly higher with Kawai.


This is impossible to know without data so we need to be careful of biases. For example, Kawai models are popular on this forum so we see a lot of Kawai user comments here. And owners are more likely to post about "problems" than post about "no problems". It helps that Kawai James is active here but that also boosts the troubleshooting posts.



I'll just make it clear here that Pianoworld is not my only source of data. I work for a music school that is mostly piano students. We also supply musical gear to our students. We have seen a significant number of complaints regarding Kawai's domestic home pianos (we don't have access to stage pianos). Practically none from Yamaha. A few from Casio. We don't deal with Roland so my impressions of them are just from friends and colleagues who own them and from here. With warranties, we practically have Kawai's rep on speed-dial. Yamaha's rep, we rarely call. My private students that I teach from home also reflect what I've seen elsewhere. This might not be a significant enough data set for some of you, but at some point we make opinions and this is my opinion. I think it's mostly Kawai owners who defend them or cite biases because they don't want it to be true. I'm not saying Kawai is making junk - I think they are basically ok but tend to have small problems that are fixable rather than fatal and expensive component breakdown. I just think they should invest a bit more time in dotting some i's and crossing some t's.


Are your observations limited to DP's? Or home acoustics also?

Only DPs. For acoustics we refer them to a piano store.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731720
04/25/18 01:27 PM
04/25/18 01:27 PM
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A question for other owners on a features I haven't quite figured out: when do "Sound Settings" and "Settings" get saved?

Normally, I have local control off. Saving that to a favorite works as expected, so I have one favorite with LC on, and one with LC off to make one touch switching between VST and internal sounds.

But how are LC and other Settings saved for the standard Pianst Mode menu? I somehow got it to stick at LC Off without using a favorite, but can't get it to stay back on through a reboot. Sometimes going into VT and "Store to sound" seems to work, but other times it will rest to LC off when I next start up and go to pianist mode.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: ando] #2731727
04/25/18 01:40 PM
04/25/18 01:40 PM
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newer player Online content
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Originally Posted by ando
Only DPs. For acoustics we refer them to a piano store.


I think that school environment is a pretty good sample to support your comments.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2731737
04/25/18 03:04 PM
04/25/18 03:04 PM
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JoBert Offline OP
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JoBert  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
A question for other owners on a features I haven't quite figured out: when do "Sound Settings" and "Settings" get saved?

Normally, I have local control off. Saving that to a favorite works as expected, so I have one favorite with LC on, and one with LC off to make one touch switching between VST and internal sounds.

But how are LC and other Settings saved for the standard Pianst Mode menu? I somehow got it to stick at LC Off without using a favorite, but can't get it to stay back on through a reboot. Sometimes going into VT and "Store to sound" seems to work, but other times it will rest to LC off when I next start up and go to pianist mode.

First of all, I'm (pleasantly) surprised that it is even possible to save the local control setting in a favorite, as the manual does not list this option among those that can be stored in a favorite. Luckily, that seems to be an inaccuracy in the manual (maybe it was changed in a firmware update?).

About your question: That's a complicated topic, and that's where much of the criticism about the new UI stems from.

As I understand the manual, the "Store to Sound" option (which is located inside the VT menu) stores only the VT settings.

All the other settings, including the ones in the "Sound Settings" and "Settings" menus (but also the selected pianist mode + resonance depth, or sound mode voice, or ambience/reverb) fall in one of the following categories:
  • Stored automatically. These settings are the simplest ones. Just select the desired value, leave the menu, and forget about it. The selected value will be retained even after a restart. The "auto display off" and "auto power off" options in the "Settings" menus are such settings.
  • Not stored at all, not even in a favorite. These settings are the most inconvenient ones. You can select a new value, but once you restart the piano, the setting reverts to its default and not even storing it in a favorite works. This means that such a setting always needs to be set "freshly" after you restart the piano. The "Bluetooth Audio" option is such a setting. It always defaults to "On" after a restart, and is also not stored to a favorite.
  • Stored only in a favorite. These are the settings where you can store a change, but only in a favorite. Such a setting reverts to its default value after a piano restart, but the value that was stored to a favorite can be recalled. However the value from the favorite only applies while you are on the favorite screen and have that favorite selected (except for the "startup with favorite" option, see below for more). As far as I can tell, only settings from the "Sound Settings" and "Settings" menus are in this category (but not all of them, some are in the categories above!). For example the "Tone Control" setting in the "Sound Settings" menu is one of these. If the piano is restarted, it always reverts to its default (which is normally "Off", but see below for more). But if you have stored a favorite with a different settings, then this different setting is used while the favorite is selected.

As I mentioned in the last bullet above, there's also the "Startup with Favorite" option.

This option has two purposes, if it is enabled:

First, its most obvious purpose is to auto-select the first favorite upon startup. So after a startup, the piano automatically has the first favorite applied, so all the virtual technician settings, pianist mode settings and whatnot that are stored in that favorite are automatically applied. This means that also the settings from the "Sound Settings" and "Settings" menu that fall into the third bullet point above and that are stored in this favorite are now applied. So far so boring - this alone only has the advantage that it saves you two taps on the screen, that you otherwise would have to make manually to select the first favorite after a piano restart.

What's interesting is the second purpose of the "Startup with Favorite" option that I found out (there's no mention of it in the manual, so I hope this is not a fluke that goes away with a firmware update):

Remember how I wrote in the third bullet above, that options of this type revert back to their default values after a restart (unless a favorite is selected)? Well, the question is, what is this default value that these options revert to?

Well, if the "Startup with Favorite" option is not enabled, then this default is system defined. For example for "Tone Control", the system default is "Off". Or for "Phones Type", the system default is "Normal", etc.

But with "Startup with Favorite" enabled, the default for such a setting is no longer the system default, but is the value that is stored in the first favorite (the one that is auto-selected during startup). Which has the effect that these values from the first favorite also still apply if you leave the favorite screen (after the piano restart and the first-favorite-auto-select).

Let me give you a specific example using "Phones Type": Let's say I have two favorites, one with "Phones Type: Open" (that's the first favorite) and a second with "Phones Type: Closed". With these two favorites in the system, the behavior is as follows (after a piano restart):

If "Startup with Favorite" is off:
While you are on the favorites screen with the first favorite selected, the "Phones Type: Open" applies.
While you are on the favorites screen with the second favorite selected, the "Phones Type: Closed" applies.
While you are not on the favorites screen, i.e. anywhere else in the UI, the system default "Phones Type: Normal" applies.

If "Startup with Favorite" is on:
While you are on the favorites screen with the first favorite selected, the "Phones Type: Open" applies.
While you are on the favorites screen with the second favorite selected, the "Phones Type: Closed" applies.
While you are not on the favorites screen, i.e. anywhere else in the UI, the setting from the first favorite still applies, i.e. "Phones Type: Open" in this case. <-- here is the difference to the "Startup with Favorite Off" case.

So the "Startup with Favorite" option, together with the first favorite, can be used to override the system defaults for some settings in the "Sound Settings" and "Settings" menus, so that you get these "new" defaults after a piano restart, and those defaults apply as soon you leave the favorites screen (until you override the value manually in the menu).

But there is one big caveat that I found: The first favorite (together with the "Startup with Favorite" option) only reliably defines these "new" defaults, if this first favorite is created as the very first one after a factory reset, and is then never again modified or moved around. If you change the ordering of the favorites and make another favorite the new first one, then for all that I could tell, the result regarding the defaults is not predictable. Based on the above, one would expect that the values from the favorite that was newly moved into first position are now the new defaults. But that doesn't seem to be the case. It's also not so that the same defaults as before are still applied. Instead, you somehow get a weird mix of defaults. It doesn't even help to erase all favorites and then create a fresh "first" favorite. Again you get unpredictable behavior. (BTW, I don't think that this behavior is "by design", but is most likely a bug that you have to workaround.)

The only way how I could get the first favorite to reliably define my own "new" defaults was, if I created this first favorite as the very first one after a factory reset, and then never moved it around, i.e. always left it in first place. So to make use of this, do something like this:
  • Think long and well about what defaults you want. Maybe try out some things and experiment a bit.
  • Do a factory reset.
  • Set all these defaults that you want in the "Sound Settings" and "Settings" menus.
  • Also set other settings that you want in the startup favorite (maybe a different pianist mode or sound mode voice?).
  • Save this as your first favorite.
  • Enable the "Startup with Favorites" option.
  • Never again touch this first favorite (well, at least until a firmware upgrade fixes this problem).

You can now create more favorites and use them normally, even move them around among themselves, but you should never move one of these other favorites into first place, or you will break your work of above and will have to start over with another factory reset. (Well, at least that's what I found how it works...)

Hope this helps a bit! As I said - it's a complicated topic! crazy

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