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My piano buying adventures #2731725
04/25/18 02:35 PM
04/25/18 02:35 PM
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schinl Offline OP
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Hello! I am a returning adult student struggling on a digital Yamaha keyboard (Y143). A few weeks ago I started on a journey to try as many acoustic pianos as I can and maaaaybe find one that matches my modest playing and even modester budget.

Of upmost importance to me is a responsive action and touch, and a warm deep sound. I would like to focus on romantic pieces and trying to work on musicality, and practicing Chopin's Aeolian harp on the digital keyboard (weighted, at least!) leaves me with a sore forearm and 0% pleasure.

I would LOVE a grand, but I don't think I can find a good one in my price range ($7-10k), and the used grands I’ve tried weren’t quite right.

After weeks of trying out dozens of used and new and grand and upright pianos from so many different showrooms... from Yamaha (the U1 and U3 is beautiful but a little too expensive) Boston, Kawai, Young Chang (I like it but don't love it?), Essex (great price and I like the touch, but not the sound), Pearl River (lovely sound but just not quite right), Ritmuller, Hailun (very interesting pianos!) etc etc to dreamy castle in the air Steinways, Shigerus, Bosendorfers, Mason & Hamlins, Petrof.. you name it, I've tried it! (you can also see why I'm so confused and overwhelmed).

When I was out of state for a conference, I came across a Kawai K500, which I did like very much! I liked the beautiful sound and most of all, the goooorgeous keys and such a responsive touch. I believe they are synthetic ivory or something, to match their amazing grands (I also tried the GL series, which are my dream pianos). The K300 did not inspire me as much.

However, my local Kawai dealer do not have a K500 in stock, and I would have liked to try it again to make sure I really love it, especially since it is right on the edge of my budget. I would have to special order and have it set up in my house, though they did say if I didn't like it by 14 days it could be sent back. However I don't think I am ready to commit to buying something sight unseen and right out of the box! Is this normal procedure?

I would appreciate any advice or suggestions! I am not in a hurry though every time I practice on my digital keyboard I wish I had something better already! I’m pretty sure by now the dealers are sick of me returning several times inquiring about new stock. Is finding “the one” a pipe dream, or should I just settle for a perfectly good Young Chang or Ritmuller?

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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731729
04/25/18 03:02 PM
04/25/18 03:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
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Urbandale, Iowa
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Steve Chandler Offline
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Hi schinl,

You don't say where you are, location is important. Most participants on this forum are in the USA or Europe, but there are also some in parts of Asia and other parts of the world. Having looked at the link in your signature I see you're in Las Vegas. If the Kawai dealer in Vegas doesn't have a K500 in stock, he should. The idea of special ordering seems a nonstarter for me, you could drive to LA try more than a few K500s and many other fine instruments and then also enjoy that the market in Southern California is much larger and more competitive than the piano market in Vegas. The savings alone on a K500 would probably cover your delivery, gas, meals and hotel room. Tell that to your local dealer and he'll know it's true. I purchased my piano long distance (purchased in Stamford, CT, delivered to Iowa). Long distance piano purchases is nothing to fear, just expect support to be from local technicians. Good luck!

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731730
04/25/18 03:04 PM
04/25/18 03:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
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Danville, California
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Furtwangler Offline
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My advice: Buy it.


Amateur Pianist and raconteur.
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731731
04/25/18 03:04 PM
04/25/18 03:04 PM
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redfish1901 Offline
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Each piano is unique, and it behooves one to try it before committing.

However, Kawai's are generally very uniform. There is fair chance you will like the one sight unseen.

Maybe you could talk to the dealer about working something out. My dealer had something like "We will order a piano and set it up for you, if you put down 50% of the agreed price. If you like it, you pay the rest and buy it. If you do not like it, you have to buy another piano from us using your down payment." If you are going to eventually buy a piano from them within a year, this might be a good option.

If you go this route, get it in writing with terms and dates spelled out. Best of luck!

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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731753
04/25/18 05:29 PM
04/25/18 05:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
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Atlanta, GA
PianoWorksATL Offline
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Unless your request is for a K500 in a finish other than polish ebony, I find it very unusual that it is considered a special order. As a dealer, we tend to carry a representative piano of any popular model, though we do run out of stock. In those cases, deposits give priority for incoming pianos, but is very different than a special order. Since you liked the one you played, there is a very good chance you will like the new one.

The 14 day return option is very reasonable to offer, but it would be important to outline what is included in the setup. Kawai's factory prep is good, but all pianos require some before and after sale service. 14 days is plenty of time to see if you like it, but very little time if it needs any adjustments to make it a keeper. For that reason and benefit, I would hope you can work it out with your local dealer.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731755
04/25/18 05:35 PM
04/25/18 05:35 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,376
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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I stand somewhat firmly in the camp of try-it-before-you-buy-it. Each piano is different and even among the same models of the same brand, including those brands known for their overall consistency, individual pianos may have slightly different tonal and touch characteristics. Make sure that you get exactly what you are expecting from your shopping experience, down to the point of recording the serial number of the piano purchased and verifying that number when the piano is delivered.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731757
04/25/18 05:40 PM
04/25/18 05:40 PM
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schinl Offline OP
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Steve: Yes, I am indeed in Las Vegas and would love to buy and build a relationship with a local dealer, as I feel they will offer more support in case of any malfunction etc. In fact they had mentioned that they had been burned before, someone ordered a fancy piano, tried it in their showroom and decided to buy from California instead, which is why they were reluctant on ordering a K500 for me to try. I didn't have the idea of buying from out of state till they mentioned it! How amazing you bought your piano from two states away!

Redfish1901: Thanks for your response. I have only spoken to the salesmen, and not the owner, who seemed pretty reluctant, but perhaps would do some kind of deal. However, I am also looking at used pianos, and so rather not be tied down to one particular dealer.

PianoworksATL: Well apparently the K500 isn't a popular model for them, and they were reluctant to order one in case I don't like it, and it will sit in their showroom unsold for a long time. They do have the K300 and K400, but I didn't like those very much. Can you elaborate on what kind of adjustments it would need after sale? I know pianos need some time to adjust after unboxing but I'm not sure how much more work it needs.

BruceD: Yes, that is what I feel, too! The difference in touch and tone is subtle but enough to drive me crazy if it is not correct.

Last edited by schinl; 04/25/18 05:42 PM.
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731763
04/25/18 06:07 PM
04/25/18 06:07 PM
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Perhaps I’m missing something in this thread. Why can’t you simply purchase the K500 that you tried out of state and really loved? I realize that you’d prefer to buy locally for after sales service. But I think you would have little problem with a company like Kawai wherever you bought it.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731772
04/25/18 06:33 PM
04/25/18 06:33 PM
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schinl Offline OP
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SMA55: The K500 is indeed beautiful, and it stands out amongst the uprights I have tried in the showroom out of town. It would be great if I can try it again locally to really make sure.

However it is quite expensive and for that price I am still wondering if I should continue my search and maybe find a cheaper used grand instead. Or 'settle' for the K500.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731775
04/25/18 06:54 PM
04/25/18 06:54 PM
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I guess I misunderstood. It sounded to me like you were sold on the K500.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731776
04/25/18 06:56 PM
04/25/18 06:56 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,814
Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
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Originally Posted by schinl
SMA55: The K500 is indeed beautiful, and it stands out amongst the uprights I have tried in the showroom out of town. It would be great if I can try it again locally to really make sure.

However it is quite expensive and for that price I am still wondering if I should continue my search and maybe find a cheaper used grand instead. Or 'settle' for the K500.


How much are they asking for the K500 ??


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731782
04/25/18 07:06 PM
04/25/18 07:06 PM
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schinl Offline OP
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SMA55: I don't blame you, I know I sound very confused in my post! I love it but I'm not in love with it, and am hesitant to pull the trigger!

Carey: A little more than $10k, but I don't know how flexible they are. And I know I can get it cheaper elsewhere, however they are the only Kawai dealer in town. May I ask how much you paid for yours?

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731787
04/25/18 07:18 PM
04/25/18 07:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
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Atlanta, GA
PianoWorksATL Offline
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Prepping an upright is very routine, but the time needed to regulate to specs and to voice to suit will still vary. 3 - 6 hrs of skilled prep is common among better quality, mass produced pianos, though quite a few are sold with less. Sometimes more is necessary. Beyond the normal factory variance, a piano is affected by transit and time spent in transit/warehouse.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731789
04/25/18 07:30 PM
04/25/18 07:30 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,814
Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
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Originally Posted by schinl
SMA55: I don't blame you, I know I sound very confused in my post! I love it but I'm not in love with it, and am hesitant to pull the trigger!

Carey: A little more than $10k, but I don't know how flexible they are. And I know I can get it cheaper elsewhere, however they are the only Kawai dealer in town. May I ask how much you paid for yours?


Certainly.......$8.000 (two months ago) - plus tax and moving. Included one home tuning. Of course, the dealer had purchased a good many Kawai uprights as part of a large sale to a local college, so he was able to reduce the price accordingly. I believe he still has one K-500 available.

Perhaps you could get the Las Vegas dealer to go down to $9K.

If you buy elsewhere, you'd be looking at additional shipping costs and you'd lose the local dealer support.

If you really want a grand, however and have the space for it, I'd encourage you to pursue that.



Last edited by Carey; 04/25/18 07:39 PM.

Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731791
04/25/18 07:40 PM
04/25/18 07:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 133
Alsea Oregon, USA
jshelton Offline
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Alsea Oregon, USA
Like you we bought a digital piano to get started and almost immediately switched to a new upright console which was a nice piano but our tuner found a GC1 yamaha that was virtually unused and only a few years old for a good price so we upgraded. Not saying we're normal but if I were you I'd find a place for a grand piano in your home and skip all the expensive steps between the digitals to uprights to finally a grand. Right now we're shopping for a larger, higher quality grand although neither of us will ever be at the level of most on this list.


John Shelton
Shelton-Farretta Guitars
www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731803
04/25/18 08:17 PM
04/25/18 08:17 PM
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schinl Offline OP
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PianoworksATL: Thank you, how interesting! I doubt any technician will want to spend 3-6 hours doing the complimentary prepping in my house. I really wish they had one in the showroom all ready.

Carey: That is a great deal, and congratulations! How wonderful you have a Mason & Hamlin as well, how would you compare your wonderful upright and grand?

jshelton: That is exactly my dilemma. On one hand I feel I should stay within a lower budget and stick to practicing on an upright, and then get a grand when I have a better repertoire, experience and budget. On the other, skipping all the steps, rearrange some furniture and fit in a beautiful grand. Unfortunately for my $10k purse, I can get either a very good upright or a lesser quality used grand!

A GC1 is pretty good! What are you looking to upgrade? What don't you like about the GC1?

Last edited by schinl; 04/25/18 08:18 PM.
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731808
04/25/18 08:57 PM
04/25/18 08:57 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 487
Bay Area CA
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pwl Offline
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schinl -

I'm NOT trying to talk you out of an acoustic piano. Really, I'm not . . .

Just being sure you're aware of the Kawai and Yamaha hybrids that offer a true mechanical action (from an acoustic grand). Kawai's new Novus is getting a lot of positive talk from owners (over on the digital forum) - altho it's maybe just slightly above your top price range. Yamaha's N2 is, according to most reports, definitely within your range.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731812
04/25/18 09:05 PM
04/25/18 09:05 PM
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schinl Offline OP
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PWL: Hybrid pianos are certainly on the table! I did try the Yamaha N1 and 2 but found the action to be too hard. I would LOVE to try the Novus, in fact I have been asking everyone about it as I am quite interested in how the volume can be controlled (how loud a grand would be in my house is one of my concerns). Unfortunately the kawai dealer here do not plan to bring one in and I would have to be “seriously interested” for them to order one. As I know the price range is higher than my budget, I could not make any promises however tempting it is.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731818
04/25/18 09:43 PM
04/25/18 09:43 PM
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huaidongxi Offline
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schinl, convincing a dealer to do something for you they're not predisposed to do might/might not be as simple as it seems. at the >$10k. budget there are many options including used grands if you accept a patient strategy. a major dealer with a large inventory (R.Estrin) in orange county, CA includes transporting a piano in that price range (which is probably worth more than an economy plane ticket from 'vegas to see the piano).

any acoustic piano you own will mean establishing a connection with a technician, one major difference between an acoustic and a digital. for me the quality of sound and touch response does not compare with a good acoustic piano unless one takes the plunge for the high end hybrid digital pianos.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731827
04/25/18 10:42 PM
04/25/18 10:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,380
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Quote
from Yamaha (the U1 and U3 is beautiful but a little too expensive) Boston, Kawai, Young Chang (I like it but don't love it?), Essex (great price and I like the touch, but not the sound), Pearl River (lovely sound but just not quite right), Ritmuller, Hailun (very interesting pianos!) etc etc to dreamy castle in the air Steinways, Shigerus, Bosendorfers, Mason & Hamlins, Petrof.. you name it, I've tried it! (you can also see why I'm so confused and overwhelmed).


You will be even more confused when shopping and trying uprights and grands in totally different price groups.

You also found some pianos "interesting" but still didn't buy them.

Please keep us in the loop on what basis you will make your decision.
Good luck!

Norbert


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731847
04/26/18 01:17 AM
04/26/18 01:17 AM
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Don't be afraid to look at second-hand grands. You might be surprised what you can find within your budget. Just out of curiosity, I took a peek at the Las Vegas Craigslist. This Baldwin R might be worth having a look at:

https://lasvegas.craigslist.org/msg/d/tuners-sale-baldwin-grand/6529591003.html

The listing says it's an RPT's personal piano. Just to see if it might be a scam, I Googled the contact phone number in the listing and it hit several music related links, including this one to an RPT's listing on the PTG website:

https://www.ptg.org/scripts/4disapi...=DirectoryDetail&PersID_W=14863&

If I was shopping in Las Vegas with your budget, I think I'd take a look.

There are others too, and more over in Los Angeles (I'd second the notion of going there to look if you need to).


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: Retsacnal] #2731920
04/26/18 08:24 AM
04/26/18 08:24 AM
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GC13 Offline
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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Don't be afraid to look at second-hand grands. You might be surprised what you can find within your budget. Just out of curiosity, I took a peek at the Las Vegas Craigslist. This Baldwin R might be worth having a look at:

https://lasvegas.craigslist.org/msg/d/tuners-sale-baldwin-grand/6529591003.html

The listing says it's an RPT's personal piano. Just to see if it might be a scam, I Googled the contact phone number in the listing and it hit several music related links, including this one to an RPT's listing on the PTG website:

https://www.ptg.org/scripts/4disapi...=DirectoryDetail&PersID_W=14863&

If I was shopping in Las Vegas with your budget, I think I'd take a look.

There are others too, and more over in Los Angeles (I'd second the notion of going there to look if you need to).


I second that idea! The Baldwin R can be a very nice piano. I'd definitely take a look at it if I were in Las Vegas. Good luck. I hope you find something you like.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731946
04/26/18 10:44 AM
04/26/18 10:44 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 133
Alsea Oregon, USA
jshelton Offline
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Originally Posted by schinl

jshelton: That is exactly my dilemma. On one hand I feel I should stay within a lower budget and stick to practicing on an upright, and then get a grand when I have a better repertoire, experience and budget. On the other, skipping all the steps, rearrange some furniture and fit in a beautiful grand. Unfortunately for my $10k purse, I can get either a very good upright or a lesser quality used grand!

A GC1 is pretty good! What are you looking to upgrade? What don't you like about the GC1?

I played a Kawai GX2 a while back and loved it. It stood up well to several much more expensive pianos at the same shop. I like the mellow voice better than the strident voice of our Yamaha and the action was very smooth.


John Shelton
Shelton-Farretta Guitars
www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2731966
04/26/18 12:50 PM
04/26/18 12:50 PM
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schinl Offline OP
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huaidongxi: Thanks for the tip. Which piano shops in California do you think I should visit? It would be fun to make a weekend trip visiting friends and piano shops. Now that I see buying pianos long distance isn't that big of a deal, I feel more open to the idea.

Norbert: Yes, I have tried dozens of pianos costing from $3k all the way to $70k Bosendorfers. I know I am thoroughly confused. The only thing I know for sure is I wish I had a bigger house and budget!

Retsacnal & GC13: The members of PW never fail to amaze me. Within a day of making this thread I feel more ideas and options opening up. Thank you so much for the link and research, I can't believe I missed it. I will make a call to her today!

jshelton: I have tried a Kawai GX also, and yes they are so wonderful. I do tend to lean to Kawais as I enjoy the responsive action very much. Best of luck and I hope you will get your GX2 soon.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732037
04/26/18 05:11 PM
04/26/18 05:11 PM
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Urbandale, Iowa
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Steve Chandler Offline
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Originally Posted by schinl
huaidongxi: Thanks for the tip. Which piano shops in California do you think I should visit? It would be fun to make a weekend trip visiting friends and piano shops. Now that I see buying pianos long distance isn't that big of a deal, I feel more open to the idea.

Good! Just to be clear, I bought my piano half a continent away. The fact is if you get tech services through your dealer you'll probably be paying a higher price. That's why you want to develop a direct relationship with your tech.

However, dealer prep is important. Your local dealer doesn't care to stock a high end upright. My guess is they don't stock Kawai's high end grands either. Do they talk much about dealer prep or is that something you first heard about here? Many dealers don't do much more than tune their new pianos unless there's a problem. I wish I cold recommend dealers in Southern California, but one has already been suggested (Estrin). Maybe others will chime in with their favorites in the region.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732045
04/26/18 05:45 PM
04/26/18 05:45 PM
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Steve Chandler:
Did you also visit your piano in person, then have them send it to you half a continent away?? How did you acclimatize your piano then, was that just between you and your own tech?

The local dealer actually has wonderful high end Kawais, there were new Shigerus and GLs. They only had K300 and K400 uprights unfortunately, so I'm not sure why they don't spare some space for a K500.

We did not talk much about dealer prep. But I do know that I much prefer trying the actual piano I want to buy in store before paying. I know Kawai is very reliable but I'd hate to be the exception to the rule.

If anyone has some SoCal piano store recommendations I'd be very interested to hear them!

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732064
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schinl, there are a number of participants here who have been around to the major dealers in the metro LA/orange county area. one individual for example is D.Ferris, a professional performer who found a used kawai grand recently in the area for a colleague.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732097
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In Southern California you have Kim's Piano, they are a big Kawai dealer. I personally know Bajamin Kim and Steven Rivera both very professional.


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732220
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Originally Posted by schinl
Steve Chandler:
Did you also visit your piano in person, then have them send it to you half a continent away?? How did you acclimatize your piano then, was that just between you and your own tech?

Yes, I played it and many other pianos and arranged to have it delivered to me. As for acclimatizing it, I just had it set up and started playing. After a few weeks I got a tuner in to go over it, but it was still in pretty good tune. My piano still has very good tuning stability. Any work has been done at my expense by techs I've hired, with one exception. I had 1 string replaced because of inharmonic overtones (that was covered by warranty).

Last edited by Steve Chandler; 04/27/18 09:49 AM.
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: Steve Chandler] #2732338
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Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
I had 1 string replaced because of inharmonic overtones (that was covered by warranty).

Wow! You actually got the manufacturer to accept a warranty claim on the basis of that? I am truly shocked and impressed. Was that Estonia?

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732340
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huaidongxi & kurtmen: Thank you, I have looked at Kim's pianos and am very impressed with their selection. I will make a visit there next month.

Steve Chandler: Wonderful, that sounds like such a pain-free experience. I hope that whenever I do get my piano long distance it will be the same!

Which brings me to today's piano adventure, I found a used Petrof model 4 for $12k. It sounded beautiful, very responsive touch, and upon asking it is about 14 years old, with one previous local owner. I was actually quite interested and was going to ask if my tech can take a look at it. And then the seller mentioned it actually has a cracked sound board... upon inspection I found 3 large cracks right across the soundboard! Now I am not so sure...

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732365
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Originally Posted by schinl
Which brings me to today's piano adventure, I found a used Petrof model 4 for $12k. It sounded beautiful, very responsive touch, and upon asking it is about 14 years old, with one previous local owner. I was actually quite interested and was going to ask if my tech can take a look at it. And then the seller mentioned it actually has a cracked sound board... upon inspection I found 3 large cracks right across the soundboard! Now I am not so sure...
Rather unusual for a 14 year old piano to have a cracked soundboard. Is this piano being sold by a dealer? If so, I'm surprised.


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732386
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Yes, I thought so too. The story is the dealer sold it as a new Petrof to the buyer 14 years ago. It came from Czechoslovakia and the change in humidity (where I live is very dry) caused the cracking. They sent a Petrof technician to fix it, and the buyer kept it all this time and is now selling it through this dealer on consignment. No warranty claims since. I've been trying to get a hold of my technician and see if it's worth checking out as the cracks look pretty substantial to me, but then again it is a Petrof, maybe it's not that big of a deal.

Last edited by schinl; 04/27/18 08:02 PM.
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732415
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Originally Posted by schinl
Yes, I thought so too. The story is the dealer sold it as a new Petrof to the buyer 14 years ago. It came from Czechoslovakia and the change in humidity (where I live is very dry) caused the cracking. They sent a Petrof technician to fix it, and the buyer kept it all this time and is now selling it through this dealer on consignment. No warranty claims since. I've been trying to get a hold of my technician and see if it's worth checking out as the cracks look pretty substantial to me, but then again it is a Petrof, maybe it's not that big of a deal.
It's a big deal - Petrof or not. Help me understand - did they actually repair (shim and fill in) the cracks? Even if they did, I'd still be wary about considering this instrument - particularly for $12K. Soundboard cracks happen....but there had to be something unique about this particular situation. European built pianos (Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Petrof. Estonia) generally do just fine here in the dry climate of Arizona. I'd be interested in your tech's opinion.


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732491
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I’m not experienced enough to be able to tell if a crack has been shimmed but here are some photos. I don’t know if it’s even worth spending the money to get the tech to look at it, if it really is that bad.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732493
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Offer them less than they are asking, buy the piano, and stop looking at the soundboard. You will never know the difference.


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: Kurtmen] #2732499
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Originally Posted by Kurtmen
In Southern California you have Kim's Piano, they are a big Kawai dealer. I personally know Bajamin Kim and Steven Rivera both very professional.


You should (also) visit Pierre's fine piano's in West LA. He has a close relationship with Kawai US in Rancho Dominquez. Besides a large inventory of new and used grands, and uprights, he will probably have a Kawai Novus NV10 you can try. I bought mine from him and the service was top rate.


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732502
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Isn't warranty service billed back to the factory? In which case, any authorized Kawai shop is your after sale service point, right? Kawai Don, if you read this, maybe you could help clarify? What happens if I buy from the Kawai dealer down the block and then move 2 states over? I certainly don't lose my access to warranty support.

I've shopped at Ben Kim's Garden Grove location twice. Both time I've been super impressed with the ratio of prep, store condition, professionalism and courtesy, to price. They didn't get the sale because Hollywood Piano had the hot deal on a new old stock YC Pramberger which was a taller, better sounding piano than the K3 for less money.

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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732560
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BDB: But I'd never be able to sell it!

TomLC: Yes, I saw his shop website, it looks very fancy and out of my price range! I want to try and visit both Pierre's and Kim's, unfortunately they are not very close together, but I am sure I can make it work.
Congratulations on your Novus10! I have been drooling over it myself, and would LOVE to try one. How do you like yours?

I tried a Pramberger and it sounds really good but not a fan of the action, do you remember which was the one you tried?

Last edited by schinl; 04/28/18 05:00 PM.
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732573
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R.Estrin has three grands listed in your budget range (he includes moving in that price range). Howard model 550 was built by Kawai for Baldwin. Kimball Viennese Classic was made when they owned Boesendorfer and used the Austrian scale and plate designs. Estrin himself provides a demo video on these ; the Kimball does not sound like any Kimball most of us have played. he also has a vintage Baldwin model C, which later evolved into their model L according to his info (he knows Baldwins better than most). in the next price tier up, he lists a Baldwin F (7 ft.), a Mason & Hamlin A (regarded as one of the best grands under 6 ft.), and a Mason & Hamlin AA. his location isn't very close to Hollywood pianos but isn't far in orange county terms from Kim's flagship location in Stanton.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732602
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Originally Posted by schinl
BDB: But I'd never be able to sell it!


Just add $1000 to your price and wait for someone to knock $1000 off the price because it has a crack in the soundboard!


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: SMA55] #2732693
04/29/18 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by SMA55
Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
I had 1 string replaced because of inharmonic overtones (that was covered by warranty).

Wow! You actually got the manufacturer to accept a warranty claim on the basis of that? I am truly shocked and impressed. Was that Estonia?

Yes, Ori and Indrek made that happen?

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2732726
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Originally Posted by schinl


I tried a Pramberger and it sounds really good but not a fan of the action, do you remember which was the one you tried?


My Pramberger is quite different from what you tried. Joseph Pramberger had worked as a designer at Steinway. He was hired by Young Chang to design a series of "European" voiced instruments to go along with the Young Chang branded pianos which imitated the Yamahas. The Prambergers were built in YC's Korean factory as a premium model. After Joe died, his family sold the name but not the designs to Samick where they are now built in China (Parsons?) and the same piano is used with three different names that Samick also owns. The YC Prambergers were renamed Albert Weber. The Weber pianos were split into 3 lines and some of them along many YC pianos were re-scaled by Del Fandrich to great reviews. Unfortunately, soon after this big step forward in sound, YC was acquired by Hyundai and at least here in America both brands have languished. If you want to try something similar to my piano but probably even better since it was one of the ones redesigned by Del, it's the Albert Weber AW-121.

Kurt


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2733044
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huaidongxi: I'd love a Mason and Hamlin, but I'm pretty sure I won't be able to afford even an older used one. Thank you so much for this, I found his Youtube channel and have spent all weekend watching his tutorials and demos.

BDB: Haha! Anyway, my tech will be looking at the cracked Petrof this week when he has time. He said he might have seen or known someone who was it when it was being fixed 14 years ago, but not sure.

Kurtz: Oh yikes, I feel like I need an excel sheet to keep up with all these incestuous piano company histories!!! This is another reason I am apprehensive about looking into used pianos.. I know I would be in for a world of research. Thank goodness for Piano world. The Pramberger I tried is a brand new one, so I don't think you would be very impressed with it.

On to my latest piano adventure, I went to the Craigslist listing of the 1960 Baldwin R. It is indeed owned by a RPT, who did considerable work on it. It used to be owned by a church. It is a little expensive (though I'm sure it can be talked down), plays great, feels great, the RPT offered to ship and tune even, however... and I know I will be yelled at for this... I just do not like the color. It is an light brown/orange color that I simply do not like. Yikes!

Later this week I will be looking at a 18 year old SKG600 Kohler & Campbell from Craigslist. Does anyone know anything about this model?

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2733048
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The cracked sound board repair on the Petrof IV looks pretty rough to me. It looks like they tried to repair it with the strings still in place, though I could be wrong.

Petrof is a nice piano, but I would not pay $12K for it in that condition. I'd be reluctant to offer $6K. Whatever price you pay, if you ever decide to sell it, you will be stressing out trying to explain the cracks in the sound board to potential buyers. But that is just me.

Good luck!

Rick


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2733053
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Originally Posted by schinl

Later this week I will be looking at a 18 year old SKG600 Kohler & Campbell from Craigslist. Does anyone know anything about this model?


The SKG600 was built by Samick in Korea, and was ranked by Larry Fine in the Piano Book (2001 edition) as a "medium quality consumer grade" piano. He also stated that Samick pianos in general were suitable for average home use, but not "for heavy or institutional use."

I recall playing several new K&C's back in 2002 when I began my grand piano search. The prices were appealing - but the instruments really didn't "wow" me. Because I was a more advanced player, the sale persons kept trying to steer me over to better quality instruments, that could stand up to frequent use.

I saw the craigslist ad. The photo is not of the actual instrument. The price is reasonable if, indeed, the piano is in excellent condition. Your tech should evaluate it if you are interested in it.

Personally, I would consider a Korean built Young Chang product over anything produced by Samick. The Young Chang Prambergers and special edition Webers built in the early 2000s prior to designer Joe Pramberger's untimely death were very good instruments for the price.





Last edited by Carey; 04/30/18 03:03 PM.

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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2733139
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Rickster: You are right. I love the thing but it would be heck to try to sell it. And even if I can, it would probably not be for very much.

Carey: The K&C I am going to look at is not on Craigslist, it is on an app called Offerup. I'm not sure how to link to it, but the photos look pretty genuine to me. I'l be happy to send you a screenshot if you are interested. I did some research as well and SKG600 seems to be the Millienium edition grands, which should be built from better parts. I'm hoping that will mean it is better than the usual Samicks you see around.

Has anyone tried the Kawai GL10? Thoughts? The dealer here is doing $10k for it.. very tempting! I fell in love with the GL40, and I know the GL10 is nowhere there, but still...

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Is there something wrong with Boston GP156s?? I saw three used ones for sale in three dealerships here.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2734100
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Originally Posted by schinl
Carey: The K&C I am going to look at is not on Craigslist, it is on an app called Offerup. I'm not sure how to link to it, but the photos look pretty genuine to me. I'l be happy to send you a screenshot if you are interested. I did some research as well and SKG600 seems to be the Millienium edition grands, which should be built from better parts. I'm hoping that will mean it is better than the usual Samicks you see around.
According to the Piano Book (2001) the regular Samick Korean built grands had the prefixes SG and SKG. The World and Millennium models had the prefixes WFG and KFM.

Quote
Has anyone tried the Kawai GL10? Thoughts? The dealer here is doing $10k for it.. very tempting! I fell in love with the GL40, and I know the GL10 is nowhere there, but still...
Indonesian built - 5 foot - pretty basic piano - but at least it has the Millenium III action going for it (as well as other higher end Kawai GX features such as agraffes, longer keys, full sostenuto pedal and a soft close keyboard). Price is excellent.. May not be your "forever" piano - BUT it is a NEW piano with a warranty. thumb I'd suggest you spend a lot of time playing it before making a decision. .


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2734145
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Originally Posted by schinl
Is there something wrong with Boston GP156s?? I saw three used ones for sale in three dealerships here.
If you decide to look at Boston, I recommend at least the GP163.


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2734148
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Today I went to look at the new 5' Kawai GL10, it seems a wonderful little entry level grand, great for my budget and space. The sound is a little dull across the board however, and the action a little stiff, but the dealer mentioned it has not been prepped and regulated and will do so after purchase. Still, it feels and sounds great for $10k 'right out of the box.' He also mentioned the sound will mature after a couple years. I really wish they would just prep their showroom pianos rather than wait for someone to buy it first.

However, right on the other side of the room I found a used 2004 5'1 Boston GP156. I found it very responsive to my touch, and sounds so beautiful. There is a buzzing on the lower notes but the dealer said it is just a damper issue and will be fixed after purchase. It is a little expensive at $9.5k, so it is a toss up between that and the Kawai GL10. The dealer seems to really dislike this piano, but I'm sure he would rather me buy his new GL10 instead! I don't know the history behind this piano, but it has been at the store for over 6 months.

I found another used Boston GP156 in dealership B, it is from 1996 and cheaper at $7.8k. There is also a buzzing and stuck key issue which the dealer promised to fix next week. I can't wait to go back and try it and see if it is comparable to the one above.

Yet another used Boston showed up at dealership C, this time a 5'4" GP164 from 1994. It is also quite beautiful but more expensive at $12k. It is a little over my budget, but I really like this dealership the best and trust them more.

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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted by schinl
Is there something wrong with Boston GP156s?? I saw three used ones for sale in three dealerships here.
If you decide to look at Boston, I recommend at least the GP163.


Please tell me more about Bostons! I know they don't have the Kawai millenium action, but I honestly still like the touch, and the sound as well. Is the extra 5'4 worth the upgrade from a 5'1?

Last edited by schinl; 05/04/18 05:42 PM.
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2734167
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IMO, the 5'4" is worth much more than the 5'1" Boston. While I think Kawai's millenium action is a good thing, it's not a "revolutionary" thing, and their wood action (used in the Boston) is still pretty good. When lubricated and regulated, Boston actions tend to be firmer than average, but predictable and controllable. We've had a couple of GP163's that were very forgettable, but a few that were remarkably sweet and musical.


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2734168
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the small grands under 170 cm. or so (approx. 5.6 feet) are generally a challenge to the designers. overall design, quality of materials, standards of execution matter more than size, same as the full size grands, but with smaller margins for compromises or poorly executed scales or construction. my own preference would be for a higher tier and slightly bigger piano used, rather than a brand new entry level piano, but you're the one who'll be living with it. the used piano quest certainly demands more patience and travel.

in the small size range, the pianobuyer.com staff picks have two pianos in your budget range, a Ritmuller and a Weber. the staff picks in the next size up that you might find a good deal in your budget are Hailun, Perzina, and Pramberger.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2734174
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Originally Posted by schinl
Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted by schinl
Is there something wrong with Boston GP156s?? I saw three used ones for sale in three dealerships here.
If you decide to look at Boston, I recommend at least the GP163.


Please tell me more about Bostons! I know they don't have the Kawai millenium action, but I honestly still like the touch, and the sound as well. Is the extra 5'4 worth the upgrade from a 5'1?


I'm assuming you've read this....

https://www.pianobuyer.com/Resources/Piano-Brands-Profiles/Detail/ArticleId/55/Brand/BOSTON

This general description of the Boston piano in the Piano Book/PianoBuyer hasn't changed much in the past 18 years (with the exception of mention of more recent enhancements). I believe that Boston pianos are a tad overpriced - compared to other mid-tier pianos built by Kawai. IMHO, the price differential has much to do with the Steinway connection. as opposed to the inherent attributes of the instruments themselves. I've always felt that the Kawai's were better deals. In this instance, however, you are comparing a NEW entry level Kawai with a warranty to older, slightly larger, higher tier USED Bostons without warranties. If the warranty and millennium III action really don't matter to you, go with the instrument that feels and sounds the best. However, $12K for a 24 year old Boston GP164 is way too high - even if it says "designed by Steinway" on the fallboard. .



.


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: Carey] #2734285
05/05/18 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Carey
However, $12K for a 24 year old Boston GP164 is way too high - even if it says "designed by Steinway" on the fallboard. .
If in excellent condition, sold used by a dealer, presumably with some store warranty and after sale service, then I have a hard time saying the price is "way too high". The OP's market isn't the most crowded for competition either. In my market, which is more competitive, it would be only a tad high.


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2734289
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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted by Carey
However, $12K for a 24 year old Boston GP164 is way too high - even if it says "designed by Steinway" on the fallboard. .
If in excellent condition, sold used by a dealer, presumably with some store warranty and after sale service, then I have a hard time saying the price is "way too high". The OP's market isn't the most crowded for competition either. In my market, which is more competitive, it would be only a tad high.
Thanks for the additional perspective, Sam. Good point about dealer vs. private sales - and different markets. Perhaps I should qualify my statement by saying that I personally would not be inclined to buy a 24 year old Boston GP164 for $12K. smile


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2742555
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Just an update on my piano search progress. I came across a very good deal on a practically new Yamaha GB1K, but the sound just isn't my sound. I had to let it go, unfortunately.

The $7k 1996 Boston 156 sold before I could take a second look at it. I was quite upset!

The other 2004 Boston 156 is still there. I brought a pianist friend there and he likes it too, but also agrees the buzzing is very irritating. I really wish the dealer would just fix it and we can evaluate it properly.

I went to a wonderful dealer in Tennessee and found a beautiful Kawai 2007 RX2, for $20k. A gorgeous instrument, one of my grails, but unfortunately over my budget. I would have really loved to own this piano.

Also found a Novus10 there! I was so excited to try it as a hybrid would solve all my concerns, but the sound quality is just not up to par.

And finally I got my hands on a new Kawai GL20, and could compare it to a GL10 sitting right next to it. The GL20 is so much better, and I like it so much. It doesn't have that much of a singing treble as the Boston, but that's not that big of a deal. However, it is over my $10k budget by about $4k, so at this point I wonder if I should just bite the bullet and get a new GL20? How does the GLs compare to RX?

I also tried a GX7 and a Bosendorfer, oh my word, such beauties. Not a big fan of the Shigeru though!

Anyway, I have made plans to go to California next month and visit Pierres, Ahn's and Knauer and see what I can find. The excruciating search continues...

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2742616
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Sounds like fun looking at least!


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2742773
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Originally Posted by schinl
Just an update on my piano search progress. I came across a very good deal on a practically new Yamaha GB1K, but the sound just isn't my sound. I had to let it go, unfortunately.

The $7k 1996 Boston 156 sold before I could take a second look at it. I was quite upset!

The other 2004 Boston 156 is still there. I brought a pianist friend there and he likes it too, but also agrees the buzzing is very irritating. I really wish the dealer would just fix it and we can evaluate it properly.

I went to a wonderful dealer in Tennessee and found a beautiful Kawai 2007 RX2, for $20k. A gorgeous instrument, one of my grails, but unfortunately over my budget. I would have really loved to own this piano.

Also found a Novus10 there! I was so excited to try it as a hybrid would solve all my concerns, but the sound quality is just not up to par.

And finally I got my hands on a new Kawai GL20, and could compare it to a GL10 sitting right next to it. The GL20 is so much better, and I like it so much. It doesn't have that much of a singing treble as the Boston, but that's not that big of a deal. However, it is over my $10k budget by about $4k, so at this point I wonder if I should just bite the bullet and get a new GL20? How does the GLs compare to RX?

I also tried a GX7 and a Bosendorfer, oh my word, such beauties. Not a big fan of the Shigeru though!

Anyway, I have made plans to go to California next month and visit Pierres, Ahn's and Knauer and see what I can find. The excruciating search continues...


I went through a similar search the last two months or so, before settling on a new Boston 163. You asked earlier if it was worth the upgrade from the 156, and my answer is most certainly yes! I found none of the entry level baby grands (be it Kawai, Boston, Yamaha, etc.) to be good, but the next one up was quite a different story. The 163 has much better sound, color, and depth. The transition from bass - tenor is much better than on the 156. Same can be said of the Yamaha GC1/GC2, and Kawais. In addition, the action on the 163 is the same exact one as on the 178 - meaning longer keys, as the 178 is a 5'10" piano. For me, my budget, and space, the 163 was the sweet spot.

I did go back and forth between Kawai's GL20/30 and GX-1 (much better!) and the Yamaha GC1/GC2 as well. I found the Yamahas to still be too bright and not as well built - cheaper in other words. The Yamaha CX series is more comparable. I also found the Kawai action to be too hard, stiff, etc. Not a fan. And the sound darker and less singing, sustain, color. Interestingly enough, the two Kawai dealers mostly spoke about how strong, reliable, and how good the Millennium action is, but they never talked about sound. Their main focus was on the physical characteristics of the piano - reinforced keybed, strong rim, heavy fallboard, strong keyslip, the carbon action, etc. And that told me a lot, not that I couldn't tell the clear difference in touch and sound between the Boston and Kawai. I was comparing the GX-1 and 163. The 163 is just as well built as the GX-1 (same parts it seems even) but with better feel and sound. I don't get the Kawais to be quite honest. I couldn't care less about plastic/carbon/wood - I just care how it feels and how it sounds. Anyway, that's my story - hope it helps a bit.


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2742843
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Thanks so much for your reply! You are right, I have been looking at so many entry level grands and the 5'0 is surprisingly quite lacking compared to their 5'5 and above brothers. I never thought a few measly inches could make such a difference in sound.

Your Boston 163 has a beautiful sound. Did you find it stayed the same in the showroom and in your house? Did you have it tuned and voiced? I was told that I could voice a Kawai to sound more similar to a Boston after purchase, which is why I am focusing more on the action. Did you find the Boston action to be more sensitive than the Kawai?

And you are right, I couldn't care less about the carbon whatever. The dealers went through some trouble showing me the wood and carbon parts but I didn't retain any of it.

Unfortunately, my budget is very small. I am fully aware that the GX and 163 is far superior, but my pursestrings only afford me a GL10 equivalent. Right now I am still contemplating forking over an extra $4-5k for a GL20, and even that is a big leap for me. Which is why my piano search is so excruciating. I have champagne tastes on a beer budget!

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2742845
06/07/18 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by schinl
[...]
Your Boston 163 has a beautiful sound. Did you find it stayed the same in the showroom and in your house? Did you have it tuned and voiced? I was told that I could voice a Kawai to sound more similar to a Boston after purchase, which is why I am focusing more on the action. Did you find the Boston action to be more sensitive than the Kawai?

[...]


From what I have heard and read - and I'm no expert, so keep that in mind - one should never buy a piano in the hopes that "it can be made to sound like [fill in the blank]. A piano can be voiced, yes, but optimally to its own characteristics and not to the tonal characteristics of another piano, let alone to that of another make.

Buy a piano that you like for what it is, not one that you think you will like (or maybe you won't) after it is voiced.

Regards,


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2742852
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Originally Posted by schinl
Thanks so much for your reply! You are right, I have been looking at so many entry level grands and the 5'0 is surprisingly quite lacking compared to their 5'5 and above brothers. I never thought a few measly inches could make such a difference in sound.

Your Boston 163 has a beautiful sound. Did you find it stayed the same in the showroom and in your house? Did you have it tuned and voiced? I was told that I could voice a Kawai to sound more similar to a Boston after purchase, which is why I am focusing more on the action. Did you find the Boston action to be more sensitive than the Kawai?

And you are right, I couldn't care less about the carbon whatever. The dealers went through some trouble showing me the wood and carbon parts but I didn't retain any of it.

Unfortunately, my budget is very small. I am fully aware that the GX and 163 is far superior, but my pursestrings only afford me a GL10 equivalent. Right now I am still contemplating forking over an extra $4-5k for a GL20, and even that is a big leap for me. Which is why my piano search is so excruciating. I have champagne tastes on a beer budget!


Yeah, every inch counts smile The sound of my piano was pretty similar when in my house compared to the showroom (except it's louder in my smaller room), but that's because the acoustics/environment were similar (i.e. very quiet rooms). Most times that's not the case, and you will need to modify your living space to either be more or less reflective as you prefer, but the color should be the same. When in the showroom, I found it best to play the pianos with the lids down and folded open, and the music desks removed (or down). This reduced the effects of the showroom's acoustics.

I will have it tuned next week. I'm OK with the voicing as it is. I may decide to have it voiced in 6months or a year, once it opens up and settles in more. I couldn't agree more with what Bruce said above. Dealers will say this piano can be made to sound like this and that, but that's mostly selling points IMO. Each piano will sound a bit different, never mind trying to match a Kawai to a Boston or whatever. So I wouldn't go by that at all.

I would actually focus more on the sound than the action, unless you find the action not to your liking and clearly prefer one over the other. In my case, I preferred both the sound and action of the Bostons over the Kawais, despite Kawai dealers insisting that the Kawai action is "superior". They will tell you they are made in the same factory, by the same people, Boston is overpriced with lesser action, blah, blah. In the end, they DO sound and feel different, as they should. The funny thing is that Boston salespeople never talked about matching a Kawai, it was always the other way around. But yeah, all that sales talk aside, I personally found the Kawai action heavier and less to my liking for reasons I don't even know or can't put in words. I felt I had to dig more into the keys to get the same sound. And the sound, yes, the Bostons had more sustain and color IMO.

The Kawai is defiantly more "bang for the buck" when buying new, and some dealers can discount a lot. I remember the GL30 was around $18k new and the GX-1 $20K new. GL20 probably $15k new. I would definitely get at least the GL20. If not, continue to look for used. Some great pianos out there used.


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2742862
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I am dealing with the same Dilemma. To make it easier on myself I have to decide first first whether I want an upright or grand. It seems impossible to make a choice otherwise.

Good luck

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: ghostwind] #2742866
06/07/18 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ghostwind
When in the showroom, I found it best to play the pianos with the lids down and folded open, and the music desks removed (or down).
I think it makes at least as much sense to play the pianos with the lid adjusted the way you will play the piano in your home.

Originally Posted by ghostwind
In my case, I preferred both the sound and action of the Bostons over the Kawais, despite Kawai dealers insisting that the Kawai action is "superior". They will tell you they are made in the same factory, by the same people, Boston is overpriced with lesser action, blah, blah. In the end, they DO sound and feel different, as they should. The funny thing is that Boston salespeople never talked about matching a Kawai, it was always the other way around.
It's not really funny or unexpected. It's because Kawai dealers want you to think you are getting a Steinway-like piano and because Boston dealers don't want you to think you're getting a Kawai-like piano(they also want to emphasize the Steinway connection).

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: pianoloverus] #2742889
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by ghostwind
When in the showroom, I found it best to play the pianos with the lids down and folded open, and the music desks removed (or down).
I think it makes at least as much sense to play the pianos with the lid adjusted the way you will play the piano in your home.


Yes, play with the lid in all positions, of course, but again, to rule out room acoustics as much as possible, playing the way I was describing it is the best way IMO to get a true impression of the piano's sound in a large showroom.

Quote
It's not really funny or unexpected. It's because Kawai dealers want you to think you are getting a Steinway-like piano and because Boston dealers don't want you to think you're getting a Kawai-like piano(they also want to emphasize the Steinway connection).


Yes, this is true. But back to my original post, Kawai salespeople spoke about the instrument's build quality, the ABS action and humidity changes, and stuff like this. Never a word about sound, color, etc. Found that very telling. And yet they are wonderful instruments, with their own sound and touch that many prefer. I guess everyone markets what they think will best sell their instruments. Still I would hear this sales talk to other customers while playing in the showroom, and they were not very interested as well. People I think primarily care about sound and touch. Not about material science smile Anyway, they were all nice and friendly people, and I do like the Kawais. I just preferred the Boston in my case.

One thing that's interesting, is why would Kawai, a proud family business, build a piano that was better than theirs, unless (contrary to what you say - and which I agree with) they don't think it's better, which goes back to my point. Sure they are getting paid by Steinway to do this, but it's a bit strange to me.


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: ghostwind] #2742902
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Originally Posted by ghostwind
One thing that's interesting, is why would Kawai, a proud family business, build a piano that was better than theirs, unless (contrary to what you say - and which I agree with) they don't think it's better, which goes back to my point. Sure they are getting paid by Steinway to do this, but it's a bit strange to me.

1. You're assuming that your personal preference about Boston being better is how most think and that's not the case.
2. My guess is that Kawai dealers mostly bring up Boston pianos only if a customer mentions it. If they bring it up independently it's probably because of Boston's Steinway connection.
3. Despite the internet, many buyers are may not be familiar with Boston so it's not necessarily major competition for Kawai or at least not any more than other makes in a similar price range.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: pianoloverus] #2742905
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by ghostwind
One thing that's interesting, is why would Kawai, a proud family business, build a piano that was better than theirs, unless (contrary to what you say - and which I agree with) they don't think it's better, which goes back to my point. Sure they are getting paid by Steinway to do this, but it's a bit strange to me.

1. You're assuming that your personal preference about Boston being better is how most think and that's not the case.
2. My guess is that Kawai dealers mostly bring up Boston pianos only if a customer mentions it. If they bring it up independently it's probably because of Boston's Steinway connection.
3. Despite the internet, many buyers are may not be familiar with Boston so it's not necessarily major competition for Kawai or at least not any more than other makes in a similar price range.


No, I'm not assuming that at all - I said as much. But again, back to my main point, it's interesting and telling how the Kawai dealers (at least the 2 I've met) never spoke about sound, but about technical things. That to me tells me that Kawai either knows they are not as good and pushes the technology aspect, or that they think that's the best way to sell their pianos. Which is fine, but for me sound is the main thing. I would think for everyone that would also hold true.


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: ghostwind] #2742908
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Originally Posted by ghostwind
But again, back to my main point, it's interesting and telling how the Kawai dealers (at least the 2 I've met) never spoke about sound, but about technical things. That to me tells me that Kawai either knows they are not as good and pushes the technology aspect, or that they think that's the best way to sell their pianos. Which is fine, but for me sound is the main thing. I would think for everyone that would also hold true.
For some, touch is more important than sound.

I certainly don't think Kawai pushes their action because they think their sound is not good. I think that's just your personal preference for the Boston sound showing. Sound preference is personal but the materials Kawai uses in it's action are fairly unique. I think the only other maker that uses a non wood action is Mason Hamlin in its WNG action.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: pianoloverus] #2742911
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by ghostwind
But again, back to my main point, it's interesting and telling how the Kawai dealers (at least the 2 I've met) never spoke about sound, but about technical things. That to me tells me that Kawai either knows they are not as good and pushes the technology aspect, or that they think that's the best way to sell their pianos. Which is fine, but for me sound is the main thing. I would think for everyone that would also hold true.
For some, touch is more important than sound.

I certainly don't think Kawai pushes their action because they think their sound is not good. I think that's just your personal preference for the Boston sound showing. Sound preference is personal but the materials Kawai uses in it's action are fairly unique. I think the only other maker that uses a non wood action is Mason Hamlin in its WNG action.


No, it has nothing to do with my personal preference! As I've repeated several times, I was just surprised none of the Kawai dealers spoke about sound, period! Yamaha dealers did, Boston dealers did, others did. Kawai spoke about their action, build quality, etc. And I found that interesting and telling. That's all. If as you say some care more about touch than sound, then that will be important perhaps. Still, what musician doesn't care about sound primarily? This is also quite strange to think about...

Their action is definitely unique and makes sense in many ways. But it was not a deciding factor for me consciously. In other words I preferred the Boston and Yamaha actions, but not because I thought "it's wood and not ABS or whatever" or vice versa. Yes M&H also use non wood. Those pianos have a wonderful sound and quite a different feel from the Kawai action. But very $$$$ smile


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Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: pianoloverus] #2742979
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by ghostwind
One thing that's interesting, is why would Kawai, a proud family business, build a piano that was better than theirs, unless (contrary to what you say - and which I agree with) they don't think it's better, which goes back to my point. Sure they are getting paid by Steinway to do this, but it's a bit strange to me.

1. You're assuming that your personal preference about Boston being better is how most think and that's not the case.
2. My guess is that Kawai dealers mostly bring up Boston pianos only if a customer mentions it. If they bring it up independently it's probably because of Boston's Steinway connection.
3. Despite the internet, many buyers are may not be familiar with Boston so it's not necessarily major competition for Kawai or at least not any more than other makes in a similar price range.


When I worked for Maytag back before it was owned by Whirlpool in their Cooking Products Division, we designed and manufactured products for Kenmore and other private labels. We also stamped some other "major manufacturers" (the direct competitions) brand names on product and shipped to their distribution centers. A sale is a sale in the business world for the parent company. In that industry (and many others) it's hard to tell who actually produced a product and what you're getting. Maytag owned 2 plants that produced washers and dryers. Both plants stamped the same brand names on the units, but the 2 plants produced very different lines of machines at very distinct quality levels. Unless the consumer was really educated and knew what to look for, it was really hard to tell the differences and what they were purchasing.

My mother used to work for a textile factory that produced women's clothing for K-Mart, Wal-Mart, JC Penney, Belk, etc. They had stricter quality standards for the JC Penney and Belk products and they were periodically inspected by their representatives to insure quality, but it all came out of the same factory.

To a degree, this is the relationship between Kawai and Steinway. The same can be said for other piano companies that are building pianos for competitors. Kawai has the manufacturing capacity to build the Steinway-designed Boston pianos, and as long as they can sell the pianos to Steinway for a profit ad increase the bottom line, Kawai is happy to play the game, and it helps Kawai maintain manufacturing economy-of-scale reducing their overhead costs. The relationship gives Steinway a line of pianos to compete outside the top-tier / luxury piano market. It's the same with the Essex line and Pearl River. All parties at the parent company level win as long as the pianos sell. As long as the general public is unaware of the relationships all is good. And there are marked design differences between Boston and Kawai pianos and Pearl River and Essex pianos.

However, a local, independently-owned Kawai dealer will never mention a Boston piano or they will treat them as "the competition" pointing out the sound and design differences in a negative way. Why? Because the sale of a Boston does not increase the bottom line of the local Kawai dealer.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: GC13] #2742981
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Originally Posted by GC13
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by ghostwind
One thing that's interesting, is why would Kawai, a proud family business, build a piano that was better than theirs, unless (contrary to what you say - and which I agree with) they don't think it's better, which goes back to my point. Sure they are getting paid by Steinway to do this, but it's a bit strange to me.

1. You're assuming that your personal preference about Boston being better is how most think and that's not the case.
2. My guess is that Kawai dealers mostly bring up Boston pianos only if a customer mentions it. If they bring it up independently it's probably because of Boston's Steinway connection.
3. Despite the internet, many buyers are may not be familiar with Boston so it's not necessarily major competition for Kawai or at least not any more than other makes in a similar price range.


When I worked for Maytag back before it was owned by Whirlpool in their Cooking Products Division, we designed and manufactured products for Kenmore and other private labels. We also stamped some other "major manufacturers" (the direct competitions) brand names on product and shipped to their distribution centers. A sale is a sale in the business world for the parent company. In that industry (and many others) it's hard to tell who actually produced a product and what you're getting. Maytag owned 2 plants that produced washers and dryers. Both plants stamped the same brand names on the units, but the 2 plants produced very different lines of machines at very distinct quality levels. Unless the consumer was really educated and knew what to look for, it was really hard to tell the differences and what they were purchasing.

My mother used to work for a textile factory that produced women's clothing for K-Mart, Wal-Mart, JC Penney, Belk, etc. They had stricter quality standards for the JC Penney and Belk products and they were periodically inspected by their representatives to insure quality, but it all came out of the same factory.

To a degree, this is the relationship between Kawai and Steinway. The same can be said for other piano companies that are building pianos for competitors. Kawai has the manufacturing capacity to build the Steinway-designed Boston pianos, and as long as they can sell the pianos to Steinway for a profit ad increase the bottom line, Kawai is happy to play the game, and it helps Kawai maintain manufacturing economy-of-scale reducing their overhead costs. The relationship gives Steinway a line of pianos to compete outside the top-tier / luxury piano market. It's the same with the Essex line and Pearl River. All parties at the parent company level win as long as the pianos sell. As long as the general public is unaware of the relationships all is good. And there are marked design differences between Boston and Kawai pianos and Pearl River and Essex pianos.

However, a local, independently-owned Kawai dealer will never mention a Boston piano or they will treat them as "the competition" pointing out the sound and design differences in a negative way. Why? Because the sale of a Boston does not increase the bottom line of the local Kawai dealer.


Yeah, this is clearly the case. I think the key as always, as you point out, is that most people do not know the relationship at all. People here on Piano World know, people really into pianos may know, but the majority of the piano buying public probably has no idea. From all I've read and heard about Kawai (being a smaller player, proud family business, etc.) I was a tad intrigued, that's all. But business is business, and if Steinway is helping them in any way, then more power to them. They do a heck of a job in terms of build quality on both Boston and Kawai pianos. I know Steinway first approached Yamaha back in the early 90s to build the Bostons, but they were turned down from what I heard. Yamaha was large enough to not need the money I suppose, and Kawai being smaller took them up on their offer.

It probably is the same with Pearl River and Essex, though Pearl River is not a small, proud, family business. They are just business.


2017 Boston GP-163 PE II
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2743033
06/08/18 12:29 PM
06/08/18 12:29 PM
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schinl Offline OP
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I am thoroughly enjoying your conversations, thank you so much. I am also learning a lot about the relationship between Boston/Kawai. Personally, as a beginner/intermediate, action is most important to me, as I still have to deal with learning notes and trying to express color through my playing. My ear isn't sufficiently trained enough to be able to make it a priority, but of course I can tell the difference between a deep warm Kawai and brighter Yamaha. But once variables such as lid opened or closed, big or small rooms come in, I get confused. Hence my preference to buy for action. After all, it is only my first acoustic piano. Maybe 15-20 years in the future, I will have advanced enough to be able to buy for sound.

I have news, I found a Mason Hamlin model A 5'9 grand on Craigslist for $5500. It is built in 1972, the pictures look fine, and owned by a RPT. I am a little suspicious at the price, something must be wrong with it. But I am still going to go look at it tomorrow with a pianist friend and see what is there to see. Please give me any tips on how to evaluate if it is a good deal? Is it rude to ask if I can ask another RPT to take a look at it?

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2743036
06/08/18 12:36 PM
06/08/18 12:36 PM
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schinl Offline OP
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Here are some pictures of it:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2743037
06/08/18 12:38 PM
06/08/18 12:38 PM
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GC13 Offline
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Me and my videos... here's a good one by Robert Estrin at Living Pianos on the subject. I used this when evaluating mine for purchase. I don't think it would be rude to have another technician evaluate it. That is a low price, and if he has nothing to hide I don't think he'd mind another technician taking a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2e3kPzP5kU

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2743887
06/12/18 12:51 PM
06/12/18 12:51 PM
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schinl Offline OP
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Thanks GC13. That was very a helpful video. I am going to Pierre's and Ahn's piano store in California next month, and will try to squeeze in a visit to Living Pianos in Santa Ana.

Unfortunately the Mason Hamlin was not my piano. I'm sure it used to be a beautiful piano, but after 40 years in a church, it needs some repairs. I wouldn't mind that as it was so under budget, but the bass was just no longer there, and the action felt like it was fighting me the whole time. The search continues... frown

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2745386
06/18/18 05:05 PM
06/18/18 05:05 PM
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schinl Offline OP
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The search has ended!!!! After QUITE an intense week. HOOO BOY!

After the Mason Hamlin disappointment on Monday, I found an old 1929 Steinway on Craigslist, right on my budget. I went over immediately to try it out, and while it sounds so delightful, the action was really stiff, and the piano not really taken care of. Nevertheless, I engaged a tech to go look at it the very next day, and started a new thread about it: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2744027/thoughts-on-this-1929-steinway-s-m.html
As you can see, the replies has not been favorable and after a couple nights, I decided to let it go. It would have been a fixer upper piano and I would not be comfortable with that as my first piano, even with the tech's mostly positive evaluation. Thank goodness for Pianoworld!

On Wednesday, Carey from the forums sent me a very welcome PM. He said I should go to this Arizona dealer, and mentioned a few notable pianos there within my budget. Unbeknownst to him, I have already visited this dealer months before, and one of the pianos he recommended was in my 'dream list.' It was a Kawai 2001 RX-2, which I hovered over and played for a couple hours. However, at the time it was over my budget (I was still considering uprights then), and the dealer said someone else was looking at it so I gave it up. I was so surprised and excited that that same piano was still available for the same price, and Carey thought it was a good piano!

It was exciting news because just a couple weeks ago I was in Tennessee and found a similar 2007 RX-2 for $20k. Way beyond my budget but it just solidified my love for the RX2.

So I called the dealer and he confirmed the availability, and we talked a little about shipping costs etc. He doesn't know much about its history, but assures me it's stayed in Arizona the entire time. The total plus shipping came up to a little over the edge of my budget, so I made plans to drive up again to Phoenix maybe in a week or two to try it. I also talked to a local Phoenix tech who emailed back saying he has tried the same piano and gave it the all clear. Woohoo!

However, very soon afterwards, Carey replied with a curveball- he found a Phoenix Craigslist ad- a private seller is selling a 2008 RX-2 for a cheaper price. Here we go again!!!!

I was wary at first, not having good experiences with Craigslist (the Mason Hamlin and Steinway, amongst others) but called the seller anyway. He seemed sincere and said he is the original owner, it was played sparingly and he is moving soon so the piano is priced to sell. This was Thursday.. and I then made the decision to drive down to Phoenix that weekend to look at both the dealer's and Craigslist RX2.

The first thing I did was call some more techs in the Phoenix area... and boy are they hard to get a hold of. Thankfully a tech Carey recommended was available that weekend, and he promised to go to the Craigslist house on Saturday morning and let me know his evaluations ASAP. Meanwhile I had to educate myself on RX2s very quickly, who knew I would have TWO to choose from that weekend, and look up moving prices and pet sitters for my impromptu road trip! I also realized that the dealer's 2001 RX2 has the older Milennium 2 action, and the Craigslist's 2008 RX2 should have the newer Milennium 3 action. Well then!

The tech called me during my drive on Saturday afternoon and gave me the all-clear for the Craigslist RX2, only mentioning the piano is out of tune and needs 4-5 hours worth of regulation work. He confirmed the Milennium 3 action on it, and pointed out that the touch is slightly heavy but nothing too unusual from the other Kawais he has regulated. Another thing he pointed out is that the satin ebony finish has some little scratches on it (oh, whatever!). Otherwise he said it is a great piano, well taken care of (the lid was closed most of the time), and he anticipates no trouble if I should buy it. With this glowing review on hand, I arrived in Phoenix and first made a stop to the dealer's, to try their RX2.

Just as I remembered, it was a beautiful piano. I really love it! It was glossy black, completely cleaned up and beautiful and the Milennium 2 action was great. It was definitely 'showroom ready' and ready for sale. Doesn't look like it is 17 years old at all. While I was admiring it, Carey called me with happy news.. he is able to join me when I visit the Craigslist RX2 later that evening! He also mentioned he stopped by the dealer last night to try the RX2, so he will be able to compare the Craigslist piano with me with fresh ears. I was over the moon! How lucky am I to have a second opinion (or third, after the tech!).

The Craigslist seller was super nice, and the piano does indeed look very clean and well cared for for a 10 year old piano. Not 'showroom ready' as the one at the dealers, but I don't care! When I played it, the first thing I noticed is the treble seems brighter.. which I did like. The piano sounds so beautiful. Carey (who is an amaaaazing pianist!) mentioned the treble can be brought down, and that the action seems a little heavier compared to the dealer's RX2. I did notice that too, so we made a call to the tech who reiterated that the piano needs regulation and tuning which may affect our perception of the action. Still, I did not think it was unplayable.. it was still very comfortable. Nevertheless, when comparing the dealer's and Craigslist RX2... I didn't even hesitate, the difference to me was rather minute, I thought we were splitting hairs. I made the decision to buy the Craigslist's RX2!

My hands were shaking when I wrote the check! And when I woke up this morning back at home I can't believe it. Finally after so many months I found a grand of my favorite brand (Kawai), in a model I love (RX), in a size I could really grow into (5'10), not too old (2008!), at a price that left room for shipping, as much tuning and regulation it wants, and even a nice rug, covers and piano leg covers even.The cherry on top was when I found out it has Neotex keys, yay!

My infinite thanks and gratitude to Carey for finding and helping me evaluate this beautiful piano! I am holding my breath until the movers actually show up at my door with my new family member (who knows when? They're also very difficult to get a hold of).

For now I am measuring the space in my living room and seeing how it will fit, plus rug shopping. All the fun post-piano purchase stuff! My friends and family (who were held captive with glassy eyes listening to my inane piano chatter) can also breathe a sigh of relief!

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2745396
06/18/18 05:35 PM
06/18/18 05:35 PM
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John305 Offline
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schinl, congratulations on your purchase. And really nice of Carey to go out of his way to help you. I too just bought my first grand piano and I know what the wait for delivery is like. It was best for me to try and put it out of my mind, which was really hard to do. After nearly a month it arrived two days ago on Saturday, well worth the wait. As for the rug, I found a very nice rug at rugs-direct.com, they have a really big selection. The rug I bought from them is very nice quality.


It’s never too late to be what you might have been. -George Eliot
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2745402
06/18/18 05:54 PM
06/18/18 05:54 PM
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huaidongxi Offline
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thank you for sharing this engaging ballad of the RX 2. to you and carey, namaste.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2745416
06/18/18 06:29 PM
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schinl Offline OP
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John305: Yes, Carey is like an angel that flew down, pointed at things and lo! It was the perfect piano. Haha! Congratulations on your Shigeru 7! What a beauty. Have you posted photos yet? Also thanks for the tip on the rugs website. I am looking for a thicker rug.. preferably over 1/4in, as I am pretty sure this piano will be very loud.

huaidongxi: Thank you, and thanks for your help as well in the early stages of my journey!

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2745418
06/18/18 06:44 PM
06/18/18 06:44 PM
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Congrats on your new piano! I know it musts been quite a journey, i just bought a piano for my daughter, I was so exhausted!

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2745439
06/18/18 07:29 PM
06/18/18 07:29 PM
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John305 Offline
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shinl, no pictures yet. I'll try and remedy that soon though. The website I mentioned allows you to choose a rug thickness in the search parameters as well as the length, width, shape, etc. I went with 5/8" thick, I believe.

Last edited by John305; 06/18/18 07:31 PM.

It’s never too late to be what you might have been. -George Eliot
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2745489
06/18/18 10:16 PM
06/18/18 10:16 PM
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Congratulations schinl!

Wishing you much joy on the purchase of your new-to-you Kawai RX-2. My experience with well-maintained RX-series has always been very good; the RX-2 has a nice full sound for its 5'10" size and the advanced Millennium action on your selected instrument will be much more tolerant of environmental changes. Also thanks to Carey for his willingness to assist you in your selection. From my past discussions with him, and his wonderful recordings, I could tell he was a very special person! Sounds like you made a great choice too!

All the Best,


Jason Solomonides
Mason & Hamlin 7' BB 93623
Yamaha 6'1" C3 (w/WNG) D3010008
My Piano Recordings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7aJcfJZZvg&list=PLkP65I5BsNirTcv-nAHm4BXXsCbB_EbAJ
Mason & Hamlin Artist
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2745558
06/19/18 08:46 AM
06/19/18 08:46 AM
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GC13 Offline
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What a cool story! I've never played an RX-2, but a friend of mine in Virginia who is an excellent pianist owns one and he loves it dearly. I think I'm going to have to watch for one to appear in our local Kawai showroom and give one a try just for kicks.

It was very nice of Cary to assist you. I bet many members of PW would love the opportunity to help others evaluate their piano options like that. I know I would.

On another note, If you have an Uncle Ollie's in your area, I was able to find my rug at one in our area for very little cost. I was surprised that they carry very high quality rugs there at exceptional bargains.

Last edited by GC13; 06/19/18 08:48 AM.
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2745652
06/19/18 02:54 PM
06/19/18 02:54 PM
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Congratulations on your new piano. You just cannot put a price on all the wonderful advice and the really nice people you get to "meet" on PianoWorld. Thank you for sharing your adventure and I join those who thank Cary for going above and beyond.

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2745729
06/19/18 08:38 PM
06/19/18 08:38 PM
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In the Ozarks of Missouri
NobleHouse Offline
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Congrats on your new piano! It was really interesting to read your "adventure". It is wonderful that there are helpful members on this forum!

Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2745767
06/20/18 12:10 AM
06/20/18 12:10 AM
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Carey Offline
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Schinl -

Of course I'm thrilled for you !! thumb

I realized from reading your posts that you had seen and ruled out all of the available pianos in your price range in Las Vegas. Since you seemed open to exploring options in other nearby cities, I didn't hesitate to share info with you about the Kawai RX2 at the dealer. What a surprise to learn that you had fallen in love with that same piano a few months earlier while visiting Phoenix and didn't realize it was still for sale. Aside from the condition of that piano (which was excellent), there were other issues to consider such as shipping costs and sales tax. I then remembered the newer, less expensive "private sale" RX2 (with a Millenium III action) I'd also seen on Craigslist and figured you should definitely be aware of that one as well. When you told me you were planning to drive down to Phoenix to look at both pianos I gave you the names of techs you could contact to evaluate them. Some last minute schedule changes made it possible for me to see and play both pianos myself, and I was able to join you at the private seller's home after my tech had spent an hour earlier that afternoon evaluating that piano. The private seller was truly motivated to sell his piano due to his impending move in two weeks (his kids are grown and in college and he is downsizing to a smaller residence) and he had priced the piano accordingly. BUT he told me that he really wanted the piano to go to someone who would appreciate and take care of it!! He overheard us talking about the need for tuning and regulation so he was aware of the extra expense you'd be incurring in addition to shipping costs. He could tell you loved the piano and was impressed that you'd driven all the way here from Las Vegas, so apparently he decided to reduce the asking price even further. Are you lucky or what !!!!!!! ha

So yes - it was indeed a pleasure to meet you, to help you finalize your long piano search, and hear you play !! I'm looking forward to hearing about the delivery of the piano in a couple of weeks, how it feels and sounds after a full regulation, and how it looks in your home with the new rug and other enhancements !!!!

Best wishes -

Carey (Phil)


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: schinl] #2745771
06/20/18 01:16 AM
06/20/18 01:16 AM
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huaidongxi Offline
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if the folks here like 19th century romantic period piano music, maestro Phil Jones a.k.a. Carey communicates the music with a true affinity and knowledge (incl. rarely performed Schumann); his youtube channel is very much recommended.

Last edited by huaidongxi; 06/20/18 01:17 AM.
Re: My piano buying adventures [Re: huaidongxi] #2745964
06/20/18 11:41 PM
06/20/18 11:41 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,814
Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
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Originally Posted by huaidongxi
if the folks here like 19th century romantic period piano music, maestro Phil Jones a.k.a. Carey communicates the music with a true affinity and knowledge (incl. rarely performed Schumann); his youtube channel is very much recommended.
You are very kind. I appreciate the validation.
Thank you !! smile


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
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