Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Kawai GFII Action: Squishy Feel?

I am not sure I get our point. It seems you are assuming there is some kind of universal definition for what is a "proper" up or down-weight what or what is a "correct" pivot point. There is no such thing. Actions on acoustic pianos have a very significant variance on how they feel. And two acoustic pianos that use the exact same type of action can be regulated in different ways. So, you won't find be able to get universal agreement on what is the "proper" or "correct" feel of a keyboard action. So, the only requirement on your list that makes sense is the first one. Everything else is either subjective or depends on your own personal taste.

Anyway, as Tyr just said, if you want to satisfy your first requirement then get a Yamaha AG or a Kawai NV10. But you may easily conclude that the actions on these hybrid DPs (or even the action of an acoustic grand piano) will fail to meet your other requirements.

OK, but let's just say that it is possible to define a "perfect" action.

Even then the project remains impossible.

First we would ask: Are there any constraints on size, weight and retail price of the action?

No? Well, OK then. Project done. No effort necessary, just take the best acoustic action that you can find and use that.

Yes? So the action should not be too large, too heavy and likely also not too expensive in retail?

Well. Ok, then we'll probably have to develop something new, if the current actions aren't good enough. Only then we have the next question: What about the costs of the manhattan project itself? Is there a limit? Because if not, then I'm sure that if we pooled the knowledge of all the best people around the world "manhattan project" style, it would indeed be possible to build an action that meets these criteria.

But of course the answer is "no". The project will only have a limited budget. Because no company in the world will put money into such a manhattan project without a limit. The company will want that the sales from the action (or the pianos that use the action) will cover the costs of the project, at least in a mid term time frame, or possibly even in a short term. So unless you have a magic money fairy descending from heaven, you will not find any company that is willing to engage in such a project without a limit. And in reality, that limit will be so low that in the end you won't have a manhattan project, but you'll simply have a normal product development - just like the development that has resulted in the current actions.

So the answer to this question:

is very simply: Because no one is willing to pay for it.

Of course, any project, and product that comes out of it, initially is expensive. However, over time the cost should come down as well as the physical size.

Tyr mentioned the new Kawai Novus model. I'm just wondering: does the key weight change when using the damper pedal on the NV10? I'm pretty sure Yamaha's AvantGrand models don't have this but they are getting a little dated.

Did Kawai address this issue with this new instrument?

Yes.

Edit: I just remembered that you can see that in my video. The key weights are the strips that you see moving below the red felt.
https://youtu.be/mQ0PTEv-hNg

The NV10 has a true back action, meaning there are weighted graded damper blocks on each key that are raised on keypress (and together with the damper pedal).

You can see them here:

Yup, I'm quite picky...

A while ago my 46" flatscreen t.v. was driving me nuts because it wasn't sitting level. This was noticeable from several feet away. I had to raise one corner 1/8" (3.175 mm).

I use a spirit level to set up my turntables, if that makes you feel better.

That is gratifying! Thank you. LOL

I am completely with you on that one :-)

I remember seeing your video about a month ago or so. Nice to find you here in this forum... and good playing too!

Thanks for sharing those pics. I read your description a couple times to get a good understanding. Really interesting. I was supposed to see the Novus a couple weeks ago but things came up. I need to go see this at my earliest convenience.

Just wanted to ask what do you think is more squishy feeling, GFI or GFII?
Please notice that I'm not saying any of them is squishy feeling or not squishy feeling, I don't have the experience to tell.

I’ve never tried any Kawai digital with the regular GF action so I don’t know. I am hoping to get my hands on the new CA58 and try out the Grand Feel Compact Action.

SQL, if you are sensitive to these subtleties, you probably would not be happy until you're playing an actual grand action.

Acoustic actions are the only ones that truly make me happy. I’m used to upright actions and even then only Ultra-Responsive and Millennium 3 models by Kawai truly satisfy me. Hoping some day to also try a Renner.

The action on the Kawai K200 and upwards series is Millenium III and feels not unlike the GF Compact on the digitals.

What touch setting are you using when you get the squishy feel? I have an MP11SE, and while it's an older generation of the Grand Feel, it also gets squishy if I set the touch to "Heavy" or "Heavy+". It seems what Kawai does to make the touch heavy is not to actually alter the force needed to depress the key, but instead, to delay the sound a split second, and also make it a little softer. That makes you have to play harder to get the same volume you get on the "normal" touch setting.

In the normal setting, it does not feel squishy to me at all. Maybe check to see if your piano touch is set to heavy.

I have experience only with Kawai RM3 Grand II and Kawai Grand Feel II.
I also felt that sometimes Kawai wooden actions have squishy feel at the bottom, but honestly, as long as I can apply on my Kawai digital piano the exact same pianistic technique I use on acoustic pianos, it doesn't bother me.

This squishy feel doesn't force you to change your technique at all, you still can play on Grand Feel II exactly like you would have played on acoustic piano.
We have to remember that the machnics of the Grand Feel II is still not the exact same mechanics of acoustic actions, so it is acceptable for me that it feels a little different than real acoustic.

The sensitivity level changes only the velocity curve, i.e. how key velocity is translated to the volume/dynamics level of the sound. A light sensitivity setting translates a low velocity reading to a loud volume while an heavy setting would require higher velocity to get the same dynamics. Thus, playing with low velocity with an heavy sensitivity setting would not only sound quieter but also "softer". It also seems you are pressing hard the keys to get loud dynamics and therefore you feel the bottom felts but other players may use different techniques to maximize key velocity and not feel the bottom felts the same way. BTW, you can check how the velocity curve is changed if you connect a MIDI event monitor to your MP11 (such as MIDI-OX or PianoTeq on a PC or MIDI Wrench for the iPad).

Note that the sensitivity settings do not introduce any delay to the sound. On the Kawai such delay is controlled via the "Hammer Delay" setting on the VT. Once again, you can check the effect of the hammer delay on the MIDI monitor.