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Mark_C Offline OP
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Y'know how it can make your day (or year, or decade) grin when something in a piece reminds you of some other piece, and you can't think of what, but then you do?

That happened to me with this passage in the last movement of Mendelssohn's Fantasy in F# minor, which BTW is a piece that ought to get played more, don't y'all think.....

It's this snippet-kind-of-thing that occurs several times, in slightly different forms, in the development section of the last movement ....I guess the main place is 12:25 to 12:28 but there are similar bits throughout the section.
It goes by real fast, but if you're just practicing it, like I am, it doesn't grin so you have time to dwell on it.



The main reason it stumped me for a good while was that I was thinking that the other piece that it reminded me of was also Mendelssohn. But then I realized that this whole passage is sort of an homage to another composer....

And here's another hint: That other piece isn't a keyboard piece, although there are some arrangements for keyboard.

Any guesses? smile

(I'm sure there are other good answers besides the piece I mean. In fact I think just about anything by the right composer would get full credit.) ha

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Some kind of Bach vibe, maybe?

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Opening motif of Beethoven's 5th Symphony ??? cool



Last edited by Carey; 04/18/18 11:39 AM.

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Originally Posted by Carey
Opening motif of Beethoven's 5th Symphony ??? cool

Funny -- that never occurred to me.

I say funny because it seems like such an obvious thing! (Now that you mention it.)

But here's why it's wrong. grin
(Although the spirit of the section sort of matches it.)

The reason it never occurred to me is that I'm one of the few people on the planet who knows that in the Beethoven, the first note isn't accented; the second one is.

It's not "BAH bah bah BAAAAAAAHHHH."
It's "bah BAH bah BAAAAAAAHHHH."

I so much have only the right rhythm in my head that something resembling the wrong rhythm isn't likely to remind me of it.

(BTW, did you know this about the Beethoven? Even many very advanced musicians don't.)

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Mark_C Offline OP
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Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Some kind of Bach vibe, maybe?

Snowflakes got it. smile

There are probably dozens or hundreds of Bach pieces that are echoed in this section. I'm thinking of one in particular. If nobody guesses it soon, I'll show it.

It's easier to hear the "Bach vibe" if you imagine it being played much slower.
In fact, as I discovered recently (I think from someone on here), youtube gives the option of seeing and hearing a video at slower speeds -- ½ or ¾, and without changing the pitch. The way to get it is by clicking on the "Settings" thing, which is the the thing that looks like a star or wheel (what IS that thing?) on the bottom-right of the screen.

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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Carey
Opening motif of Beethoven's 5th Symphony ??? cool

Funny -- that never occurred to me.

I say funny because it seems like such an obvious thing! (Now that you mention it.)


And I initially thought the Bach vibe thing was obvious - and vague - which is why I dug a little deeper.

Quote
But here's why it's wrong. grin
(Although the spirit of the section sort of matches it.)

The reason it never occurred to me is that I'm one of the few people on the planet who knows that in the Beethoven, the first note isn't accented; the second one is.

It's not "BAH bah bah BAAAAAAAHHHH."
It's "bah BAH bah BAAAAAAAHHHH."

I so much have only the right rhythm in my head that something resembling the wrong rhythm isn't likely to remind me of it.

I wasn't thinking about the the accents - only the repeated four note pattern.

Quote
(BTW, did you know this about the Beethoven? Even many very advanced musicians don't.)

Sure did. ha

Now how about giving us a break and telling us which specific non-keyboard work by Bach the Mendelssohn reminds you of. grin

Also - thanks for the tip regarding the YouTube settings function..........


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I hear the prelude from BWV 872 but that is a keyboard work.

I think there are probably a dozen reasonable answers to your question, Mark.


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Originally Posted by Mark_C
And here's another hint: That other piece isn't a keyboard piece, although there are some arrangements for keyboard.

I think you might be thinking of Bach's Chaconne from Partita No.2 in D minor for solo violin, BWV something-or-other grin

Though the first piece that came into my mind was by Chopin......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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BTW, regarding your "accent " on the second note of Beethoven 5. I would dispute the use of the word "accent".

Because the first note is off the beat, it has to be phrased differently. But it is more about how the 3 notes are phrased than just a simple matter of "an accent on the second note".

An almost identical example occurs at the opening of Bach's English Suite #2 in A minor. A trap for inexperienced players.

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Mark_C Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
I hear the prelude from BWV 872 but that is a keyboard work.

That totally works.

I didn't know that Prelude & Fugue at all. If I did, I might well have thought of it too.

Quote
I think there are probably a dozen reasonable answers to your question, Mark.

I think dozen is a conservative estimate. smile


Originally Posted by CharlesXX
BTW, regarding your "accent " on the second note of Beethoven 5. I would dispute the use of the word "accent".

Because the first note is off the beat, it has to be phrased differently. But it is more about how the 3 notes are phrased than just a simple matter of "an accent on the second note."

I AGREE!

I was just trying to keep it simple about that, since it was sort of a tangent to the subject. But it did pain me a little to put it the way I did. grin

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Originally Posted by bennevis
.....the first piece that came into my mind was by Chopin......

WHAT PIECE??

I'm wondering if that piece (whatever it is!) might have been hovering in my mind too.

Here's the piece I meant:


The figuration in question is sort of everywhere, but I'll single out 0:57 and especially 2:58.


BTW, notice that there are lots of places where Heifetz actually commits some stray extraneous squeaks and hits-of-extra-strings.
I guess that on the violin as well as the piano, Bach (I'm saying) might be harder than Paganini or Liszt, even if we're just talking about "technique"!

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I think that bit at 2:58 in that last video sounds more like a spot in the middle of two-part invention #8....i.e. go to 0:38 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omsIpJ9Fwas

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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
]I think there are probably a dozen reasonable answers to your question, Mark.

I think dozen is a conservative estimate. smile

Then what's the point of this impossible little quiz? smile


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Originally Posted by scriabinfanatic
I think that bit at 2:58 in that last video sounds more like a spot in the middle of two-part invention #8....i.e. go to 0:38 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omsIpJ9Fwas

That works too! but.....

Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
]I think there are probably a dozen reasonable answers to your question, Mark.

I think dozen is a conservative estimate. smile

Then what's the point of this impossible little quiz? smile

.....if you slow down the Mendelssohn to the speed I was practicing it at, the other thing is closest. ha

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Part 2:
(I wasn't holding out grin ....only just thought of this, although it had been floating in my mind for 30 years)

What show tune has a part that might have been stolen from this same movement?

Like, at 1:04 and 1:09 on here:


I think this is easier than the other one.
The only thing that makes me say "I think" rather than flat-out "is," is that I've never heard or come across any mention of this, and an internet search shows nothing.


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When the dog bites, when the bee stings, when I’m feeling sad
I simply remember My Favourite Things and then I don’t feel so bad!
🙂


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PS. There’s a spot in the D minor piano trio that reminds me of that too.


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Originally Posted by Mark_C
The only thing that makes me say "I think" rather than flat-out "is," is that I've never heard of come across any mention of this, and an internet search shows nothing.
Why would it? smile I believe the similarities are merely coincidental rather than intentional. While the rhythm is the same - the intervals of this snippet from the Mendelssohn Fantasy vs. the Rodgers song are significantly different. As for the similar melodic snippet in the d minor trio....that has always reminded me a bit of the Rodgers song. ha






Last edited by Carey; 04/29/18 03:02 AM.

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Originally Posted by currawong
When the dog bites, when the bee stings, when I’m feeling sad
I simply remember My Favourite Things and then I don’t feel so bad!
🙂

Thank you, Curra. smile

Maybe an even better spot in the movement is 4:49, because it becomes more lyrical there.

And, speaking of that Mendelssohn trio, and highway robbery.... grin

How about this thing in Pagliacci, at 8:56:



......and the passage at 27:49 in the Mendelssohn trio, which was written about 50 years earlier:


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While we're at sorting puzzles, I instantly thought of Rach Piano #2 when I heard the Scriabin piano concerto (op 20) for the first time. As far as I can ascertain, the Scriabin was written 5 years earlier than the Rachmannov. (Their paths don't seem to have crossed, Scriabin being St Petersburg based while Rachmaninov was in Moscow).

Does anyone know if there really is a link between them, or did both take a typically 'contemporary Russian' view to composition, makng it no more than coincidental?


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