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Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729603
04/17/18 11:08 AM
04/17/18 11:08 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 365
Celestis
Granyala Offline
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Granyala  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 365
Celestis
Quote
I don't thing that any shrill like this would be coming from an acoustic piano.

On an acoustic you don't force an artificial brilliance setting to the max either. Well you could do it in post processing software and the result would be similar in hideousness. Stuff like brilliance and other settings are precision tools not sledgehammers.

Go close to the max into either direction and your sound WILL become more and more unrealistic.

Originally Posted by Marcel M
It does not require high school to hear that there is something in the sound that is disturbing and should not be there. And yes they were qualified (musicians and sort of audiophiles)


Apart from looping samples and a general harshness I can't hear any obvious distortion or foreign elements in your second recording, the first one I wont comment on because it sounds horrible either way.

Sounds like a piano to me.
Maybe you simply dislike the SK-EX sound signature.
Try a VST so you can rule out any of your other sonic equipment.

Last edited by Granyala; 04/17/18 11:11 AM.

The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
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Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729627
04/17/18 12:24 PM
04/17/18 12:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 685
Europe
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arc7urus Offline
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Europe
Originally Posted by Marcel M

Originally Posted by arc_turus

Do you hear those artefacts on these recordings made with one CA98? These were recorded directly to usb in mp3 using high brilliance settings as well.
https://soundcloud.com/ac-635715790/sets/ca98-samples


Yes, of course, extremely disturbing... Are you saying that it is clear beautiful piano sound?


Ah! Now we are getting on the same page :-) I believe you prefer a very clean and clear piano sound. However, a clean and clear sound is something that you will never get from any acoustic piano due to resonance, ringing overtones, harmonic beating, mechanical noises and all other acoustic phenomena happening inside and outside the piano.

The CA98 - and to some extent your CA48 - are trying to simulate these effects. If the sound is "beautiful" or not is a subjective matter. But you are definitely not hearing noise. This video from Paul Barton shows some examples of resonance (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHWex94-mHg&feature=youtu.be&t=442). You would hear the same effects on a good quality recording made with an acoustic.

I also believe you would have the exact same complaints with any DP or VST that is trying to simulate these acoustic effects. For example, have a listen at Pianoteq's demos. The first one ("The Places We Knew") is a good example. Do you consider it to be "noisy" as well? https://www.pianoteq.com/listen_by_instrument

So, you should try to understand if you do not like how Kawai is trying to simulate these effects, if you do not like the SK-EX tone or if you simply do not like the "unclean" sound of an acoustic piano along with all of its imperfections...


Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729642
04/17/18 01:14 PM
04/17/18 01:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,811
Germany
JoBert Offline
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JoBert  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,811
Germany
Originally Posted by Marcel M

Originally Posted by arc_turus

Do you hear those artefacts on these recordings made with one CA98? These were recorded directly to usb in mp3 using high brilliance settings as well.
https://soundcloud.com/ac-635715790/sets/ca98-samples


Yes, of course, extremely disturbing... Are you saying that it is clear beautiful piano sound?

Yes. Ignoring the ramped up brilliance, this is a normal, beautiful piano sound. Well, "beautiful" if you like the Kawai sound signature (which I do, someone else may think otherwise). But it certainly is "normal". There's nothing in there (again, except the brilliance) that is not typical and normal for a piano sound. Is it also a "clear" piano sound? To me, yes. But I suspect that you have a different interpretation of "clear" in mind, because you obviously don't characterize it so.

Now, please don't misunderstand the following. It is meant in a constructive and hopefully helpful way. You mentioned that your previous piano has been a YDP 141, and that it had the "super clear" sound that you like. This YDP 141 is an 8 year old model that even when it was new was a model in Yamaha's entry level line with technology that wasn't new even back then. Certainly it had a much simpler sound engine than your CA48 has, with much less resonances and the like. I wonder if maybe playing this instrument has, over time, somewhat skewed your perception of how a piano is supposed to sound? So that you now perceive the rather "plain" and (excuse the honesty) boring sound of that piano as your "clear" ideal piano sound, and find the more realistic sound of the CA48 unnatural.
If you have the opportunity, go to a shop and play a lot of other recent DP models (the more high end the better), not only Kawai, but Roland, Casio and Yamaha too. And download the free trial for Pianoteq and play it. Maybe also play some (preferrably not so cheap) acoustics at a shop. Everything to "reset" your baseline of how a piano is supposed to sound. Then maybe you can learn to accept, or even like, the CA48 too.

Of course you may end up still not liking it. Then you have a problem if you indeed cannot return it. Because one thing seems to be clear: Your piano does not have a defect that Kawai can fix for you. It sounds exactly as designed.

Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: JoBert] #2729696
04/17/18 04:46 PM
04/17/18 04:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 100
R
redfish1901 Offline
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Posts: 100
Originally Posted by JoBert
I wonder if maybe playing this instrument has, over time, somewhat skewed your perception of how a piano is supposed to sound?


I'm not the original poster, and am going clearly off topic, but this hits home because it happened to me.

Until recently, I hadn't played a real piano in like 20 years. Even though I could still play intermediate-advanced classical music from memory, and learn new pieces, I only had access to a digital, so it was a shocking discovery that I had effectively forgotten how to play the real thing.

As I started shopping for a new digital recently, I got to play real pianos again in the stores, and discovered that my playing has lost sensitivity and expressiveness, and my pedaling has become sloppy. The lesser digitals hid these defects, but the better ones (AvantGrands) were revealing. I'm slowing getting better as I continue to play acoustics while shopping for a new piano, but now instead of looking for a good digital, my minimum bar has become hybrids and maybe stretch my budget for a used grand.

There is an old forum member who advocates modeled pianos and playing at realistic volume levels (I believe bennevis). I strongly agree with this now. Pianoteq goes further than most digitals, but even it has limitations. (Here is a very interesting pteq forum thread related to this: http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=3427)

I'm not advocating everyone only use acoustic instruments. People have different needs and means, and making and enjoying music is the real goal here. But at the same time, it's possible that people without access to a real acoustic piano (and in tune and good working order) may have a difficult time determining what "good piano sound" is supposed to be like.

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Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729701
04/17/18 05:11 PM
04/17/18 05:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 255
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GoldmanT Offline
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Posts: 255
The flip side is that a lot of the acoustic pianos out there in the wild (not brand new ones in shops) just aren't very good, or need constant tuning to keep them sounding good. An upright action always feels spring-loaded to me (it probably is?) so I never have much control over the softer end of the spectrum, there's no resistance there, and a grand piano to play on is a rarity outside of a teacher's piano or staying in some well-to-do hotel or access to a university department - no-one I know even has the space for a grand piano, let alone be able to afford a decent one.

A few weeks ago we were in a café with a nice looking upright piano with a sign saying 'do not play unless authorised' and an advert for the local music shop on top of it. When the 'authorised' guy finally came to play it, I was really underwhelmed - it didn't sing, it was muddy and reminded me of old folks homes. A mid-priced digital sounds good (like 'studio recording of acoustic piano' good, not 'like an acoustic piano is in your room' good) and can be turned down enough not to disturb the neighbours.

One thing I've done recently though is increase the note decay time on my digital so it more closely resembles the longer decay of an acoustic - I know some manufacturers must reduce the decay so their sample looping doesn't become obvious, but also maybe to make players not sound as bad when they jam down the damper pedal.

Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729779
04/18/18 02:27 AM
04/18/18 02:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 637
Valencia, Spain
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mabraman Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 637
Valencia, Spain
Did the OP turn pedal noises off, by the way?


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
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