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Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729378
04/16/18 12:24 PM
04/16/18 12:24 PM
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redfish1901 Offline
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Just to add to the confusion further, I hear a high frequency, shrill, "ringing" when listening to the recording made through the speakers, most noticeable when higher notes are played. It is much less noticeable to me in the line-out recording. I have also noticed this ringing in person in CA97, 98, 78 at the store.

I notice a dissonant "bzzzz" in the times Marcel_M indicated, but that sounds like normal piano dissonance to me.

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Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729399
04/16/18 01:31 PM
04/16/18 01:31 PM
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I came across some odd digital artefacts on my Kawai a few times, and narrowed it down to the key-on/key-off noise getting messed up in the reverb, giving a bit of a digital artefact. That wouldn't necessarily match with what you're describing though, but you could try turning off the key-noise effects in Virtual Technician to see if that changes what you're hearing.

Last edited by GoldmanT; 04/16/18 01:43 PM.
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729401
04/16/18 01:37 PM
04/16/18 01:37 PM
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Thanks guys for finally confirming that there is something wrong with kawai sound. I noticed it also in cn 27/37. It surprise me that something like this happens also on such a expensive piano like ca97.


Kawai CA48
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729402
04/16/18 01:40 PM
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What noise did anyone confirm? Lots of people couldn't hear anything untoward in your recording....

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Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729404
04/16/18 01:42 PM
04/16/18 01:42 PM
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actually just redfish1901

Last edited by Marcel M; 04/16/18 01:43 PM.

Kawai CA48
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729405
04/16/18 01:44 PM
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[edited]

I'll try to post up a recording of the artefacts I (thought I) heard, see if anyone can hear them. Ears are deceptive though.

Last edited by GoldmanT; 04/16/18 01:44 PM.
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729409
04/16/18 01:57 PM
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I cannot understand how people cannot hear any noise on my recordings.
I showed it to some people in my work, and all confirmed that there is some noise (or shrill, whatever it means) in the recordings that definitely should not be there. I am always talking about listening with higher volume on good headphones.


Kawai CA48
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729419
04/16/18 02:47 PM
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If you turn up brilliance to max and listen to it loud it's going to be shrill, but then a bright acoustic piano played loudly is going to be shrill.. Did all the people say 'that noise shouldn't be there' or was that your words interpreting what they were saying? Were they qualified to say it 'shouldn't be there' based on their experience of recording and listening to recordings of acoustic pianos?

Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729426
04/16/18 02:52 PM
04/16/18 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcel M
I cannot understand how people cannot hear any noise on my recordings.
I showed it to some people in my work, and all confirmed that there is some noise (or shrill, whatever it means) in the recordings that definitely should not be there. I am always talking about listening with higher volume on good headphones.

I listened too (several times), from my tablet, with HD 599 headphones, at maximum volume. I also cannot hear anything that I wouldn't expect in a piano sound with such exaggerated brilliance.

I think people are actually hearing the same thing you hear, we simply interpret it differently. What you interpret as noise is interpreted as normal dissonance, overtones and resonances by others (amplified by the excessive brilliance, of course).

I think it is a case of you just not liking the Kawai piano sound very much. And in addition, you have now trained yourself to notice this sound in particular, that you perceive as faulty. I don't think anyone here will now be able to convince you that the sound is normal (and simply unexpected by you). If possible at all, you should probably return the piano (a destroyed box should be no hindrance). If you indeed cannot return it, then maybe you have the option of using a VST via a computer at least for a while? Something like Pianoteq or Garritan CFX? Maybe you can then "untrain" yourself from hearing the sound as "wrong".

Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729448
04/16/18 04:15 PM
04/16/18 04:15 PM
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I also wondered if what I'm hearing is real, so I made a spectral plot of the two sound files.

speakers: https://imgur.com/a/kICJD
line in: https://imgur.com/a/gjWUn

The speaker recording has much louder high frequency resonance, which is not really present in line-out recording.

So, there is something actually there. It could be the settings, the room acoustics, or maybe even the hardware. It could also be that some people are just more sensitive. I'm certainly in the camp that's sensitive.

Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729451
04/16/18 04:28 PM
04/16/18 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcel M
I cannot understand how people cannot hear any noise on my recordings.
I showed it to some people in my work, and all confirmed that there is some noise (or shrill, whatever it means) in the recordings that definitely should not be there. I am always talking about listening with higher volume on good headphones.

Believe me, get get some 100€ Sennheiser OPEN cans and forget about those things. Set touch to heavy to make it mellower. DON'T set headphones to high volume, it's not natural.
There are some imperfections in PHI engine but It is musical enough if you play carefully. If you bang it and use bad settings, it's gonna sound bad.
You found my recording beautiful sounding, so it's not a problem with Kawai sound. And by the way those settings were chosen to be played via speakers, so It sounds a bit harsh on headphones.


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729464
04/16/18 05:18 PM
04/16/18 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcel M
I cannot understand how people cannot hear any noise on my recordings.
I showed it to some people in my work, and all confirmed that there is some noise (or shrill, whatever it means) in the recordings that definitely should not be there. I am always talking about listening with higher volume on good headphones.


Can you please have a listen at these four recordings? https://soundcloud.com/ac-635715790/sets/ca98-samples

I tried to reproduce your example on the CA98 with brilliance at a high level using the HI-XL engine and the new "pianist mode". These were recorded directly to USB in MP3 format. I am curious if you are able to detect any noise or artefacts on these recordings as well. Note that I am aware that your Kawai features the older PHI sound engine.

Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: redfish1901] #2729469
04/16/18 05:45 PM
04/16/18 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by redfish1901
I also wondered if what I'm hearing is real, so I made a spectral plot of the two sound files.

speakers: https://imgur.com/a/kICJD
line in: https://imgur.com/a/gjWUn

The speaker recording has much louder high frequency resonance, which is not really present in line-out recording.

So, there is something actually there. It could be the settings, the room acoustics, or maybe even the hardware. It could also be that some people are just more sensitive. I'm certainly in the camp that's sensitive.


The speaker recording was done with a smartphone which means it not only captured the audio from the DP but also all the ambient noise. Moreover, the microphones on such devices are not to produce a decent audio recording. So, it is very likely that the higher frequencies and "noise" you are detecting on the plot are artefacts introduced by the the low quality of that microphone.

Note that the OP is also able to hear noise on the "line out" recording, while the only thing I hear is resonance and what sounds like some clipping when the last chord is played. Anyway, this is an interesting but a completely subjective discussion :-)

Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: arc7urus] #2729513
04/16/18 09:46 PM
04/16/18 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by arc_turus

The speaker recording was done with a smartphone which means it not only captured the audio from the DP but also all the ambient noise. Moreover, the microphones on such devices are not to produce a decent audio recording. So, it is very likely that the higher frequencies and "noise" you are detecting on the plot are artefacts introduced by the the low quality of that microphone.


I disagree because 1) Most smart phone microphones are quite good between 150Hz-16KHz, and 2) I heard the very same artifacts in person listening to other Kawai CA models. On multiple occasions I visited the shop, I heard them. Maybe it's the room (which I said was possible), but I doubt it's being introduced by the recording equipment.

Originally Posted by arc_turus

Note that the OP is also able to hear noise on the "line out" recording, while the only thing I hear is resonance and what sounds like some clipping when the last chord is played. Anyway, this is an interesting but a completely subjective discussion :-)


Rightly so.

Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: redfish1901] #2729519
04/16/18 10:15 PM
04/16/18 10:15 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Originally Posted by redfish1901
I also wondered if what I'm hearing is real, so I made a spectral plot of the two sound files.

speakers: https://imgur.com/a/kICJD
line in: https://imgur.com/a/gjWUn


Hmm...I'm not entirely sure this illustrates a great deal, beyond the fact that two differently performed passages recorded at separate times under different conditions result in different spectral analysis images. I believe there are too many variables involved to allow any kind of conclusions to be drawn.

Honestly, I'm inclined to agree with JoBert. There does not appear to be a problem with the instrument, however if the OP dislikes the sound it produces for whatever reason, it's probably best to (try to) return it to the store, or consider alternative sound generation options.

Kind regards,
James
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Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: redfish1901] #2729541
04/17/18 02:12 AM
04/17/18 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by redfish1901
Originally Posted by arc_turus

The speaker recording was done with a smartphone which means it not only captured the audio from the DP but also all the ambient noise. Moreover, the microphones on such devices are not to produce a decent audio recording. So, it is very likely that the higher frequencies and "noise" you are detecting on the plot are artefacts introduced by the the low quality of that microphone.


I disagree because 1) Most smart phone microphones are quite good between 150Hz-16KHz, and 2) I heard the very same artifacts in person listening to other Kawai CA models. On multiple occasions I visited the shop, I heard them. Maybe it's the room (which I said was possible), but I doubt it's being introduced by the recording equipment.


Do you hear those artefacts on these recordings made with one CA98? These were recorded directly to usb in mp3 using high brilliance settings as well.
https://soundcloud.com/ac-635715790/sets/ca98-samples

And it is not only about the frequency range that the mic on a smartphone can capture. It is also about how these mics handle sound source directionality, signal/noise and other parameters . I have never heard a decent recording of an acoustic or digital piano made through the microphone of a smartphone. So, you cannot be sure what characteristics of that recording are actually part of the sound source, what is being introduced by the ambient environment and what is the impact of the recording hardware and software.I would say that the line-out recording eliminates some of these variables and therefore is more objective.

Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: Marcel M] #2729548
04/17/18 03:19 AM
04/17/18 03:19 AM
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From my experience with PHI, some "artefacts" may indeed happen and they usually, but not always, come from modelling:

-Resonance model is (of course) imperfect, to keep some compromises. It has its own "signature" (like real pianos have) and some people find it "ringing".
-Touch, when set to heavy or heavy+, makes the sound almost muffled when playing mf.
-Mellow voicings produce noise.(but a real piano, fully closed, does it too)
-Brilliant voicings tend to be piercing and ringing, when the piano is not a mellow one.(idem)
-Dynamic voicings sound fake (but sometimes work well).
-Some (many!) settings, when high or very low values are selected, don't work well toghether and produce "artefacts". This is to be expected as they are deviations from a mean.
-Cues are looped and it sounds weird specially in the bass, mostly if you play with pedal.
-Some dissonances sound really weird and fake, this is the only thing that is,indeed, close to a "buzz", but you simply get used to it. When it buzzes you know you have made a pedalling mistake.

But, all things above being true...sit and play on a not-so-cheap vertical and tell me what you hear!! Lots of strange noises that you end getting used to.

And most important, the brain is an active processor: depending on where you come from, it perceives sound in a way or another, until it just finds the way to "hear" well.


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: GoldmanT] #2729595
04/17/18 11:38 AM
04/17/18 11:38 AM
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Marcel M Offline OP
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Originally Posted by GoldmanT
If you turn up brilliance to max and listen to it loud it's going to be shrill, but then a bright acoustic piano played loudly is going to be shrill..

I don't thing that any shrill like this would be coming from an acoustic piano. Actually it remind me when I play piano at my parents house, they got lots of stuff placed on piano, so it resonate like crazy when I play... Maybe that is the purpose of it, to simulate it:)

Originally Posted by GoldmanT
Did all the people say 'that noise shouldn't be there' or was that your words interpreting what they were saying? Were they qualified to say it 'shouldn't be there' based on their experience of recording and listening to recordings of acoustic pianos?


It does not require high school to hear that there is something in the sound that is disturbing and should not be there. And yes they were qualified (musicians and sort of audiophiles)


Kawai CA48
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: arc7urus] #2729598
04/17/18 11:49 AM
04/17/18 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by arc_turus

Do you hear those artefacts on these recordings made with one CA98? These were recorded directly to usb in mp3 using high brilliance settings as well.
https://soundcloud.com/ac-635715790/sets/ca98-samples


Yes, of course, extremely disturbing... Are you saying that it is clear beautiful piano sound?


Kawai CA48
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting) [Re: mabraman] #2729602
04/17/18 11:56 AM
04/17/18 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mabraman


But, all things above being true...sit and play on a not-so-cheap vertical and tell me what you hear!! Lots of strange noises that you end getting used to.

And most important, the brain is an active processor: depending on where you come from, it perceives sound in a way or another, until it just finds the way to "hear" well.


Well said! And, it's just as easy to find fault with a top line grand. Room, room location, furnishings, lid position, cabinet rattle maybe; indigestion, headache. . . hangover . . .
And you can't send one of those back without a fight!


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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