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Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: Chris Leslie] #2687908
11/07/17 09:01 PM
11/07/17 09:01 PM
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That Guy Offline
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Of course you could always just simply put the machines away, open your ears, and tune nice clean octaves and double octaves down that region. I don't want to start an argument though!


Yes, absolutely. And that's what I do quite often. But, that's not the purpose of what I'm doing. I'm trying to get TuneLab to match up with OnlyPure's perfect 12ths temperament. It always matches up nicely in the treble but in the break area and down sometimes it doesn't. It could be that, in the end, just tuning the bass aurally is the easiest and most accurate, but hey, where's the fun in that? 😏😁 And besides, I'm having some nice success! thumb

Also, there are some TuneLab users that have been very interested in what I'm doing, so I have some motivation to continue.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
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Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: michaelopolis] #2687914
11/07/17 09:24 PM
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Would it be better, if using a machine, to listen to what we do aurally. For example, directly listening to at least two prominent partials, say 2, 3 and 4, and tune manually to the compromise. That is what the Accu Tuner manual suggests.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: That Guy] #2688126
11/08/17 07:04 PM
11/08/17 07:04 PM
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That is what I do as well, go through it once and fix up the octaves around and below the break. If verituner is better at handling that, I'm also interested in try it out..


David C.
Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: Chris Leslie] #2688273
11/09/17 11:17 AM
11/09/17 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Would it be better, if using a machine, to listen to what we do aurally. For example, directly listening to at least two prominent partials, say 2, 3 and 4, and tune manually to the compromise. That is what the Accu Tuner manual suggests.


Do you mean something along the lines of matching double octave and octaves-5ths?

For the most part I now ignore Tunelab in the bass because I get superior results by ear (and I am not even an experienced aural tuner).


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Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: michaelopolis] #2688344
11/09/17 04:24 PM
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Yes. It is using the machine to do the listening, but the principle is what we do aurally if matching octave and octave-fifths for example. The whole piano outside of the temperament can be tuned this way. In doing so, there is no need to measure inharmonicity, have a tuning curve generated, or force a particular octave type in any region of the piano.

For example, to tune A2: Tune the A2 note but listen using the machine to A4 and E4 seperately so the the indicator drifts equally but in opposite directions.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: Chris Leslie] #2688535
11/10/17 11:33 AM
11/10/17 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Yes. It is using the machine to do the listening, but the principle is what we do aurally if matching octave and octave-fifths for example. The whole piano outside of the temperament can be tuned this way. In doing so, there is no need to measure inharmonicity, have a tuning curve generated, or force a particular octave type in any region of the piano.

For example, to tune A2: Tune the A2 note but listen using the machine to A4 and E4 seperately so the the indicator drifts equally but in opposite directions.


I never thought of this and it makes perfect sense. However, to me it seems to defeat the purpose of the ETA because the machine is supposed to be figuring this out for you instead of you having to do it. I guess it depends on how much extra effort you want to put into the tuning. At some point you will save a lot of time just using your ears.

Having said that, I only seem to have a problem in the bass using Tunelab so I just ignore the machine and tune by ear. By contrast, Tunelab usually does a fine job in the treble so I just tune to the indicator and then listen to make sure it is okay; and it almost always is.


Piano Player and DIY tuner
Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: staveoff] #2688561
11/10/17 12:52 PM
11/10/17 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by staveoff
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Yes. It is using the machine to do the listening, but the principle is what we do aurally if matching octave and octave-fifths for example. The whole piano outside of the temperament can be tuned this way. In doing so, there is no need to measure inharmonicity, have a tuning curve generated, or force a particular octave type in any region of the piano.

For example, to tune A2: Tune the A2 note but listen using the machine to A4 and E4 seperately so the the indicator drifts equally but in opposite directions.


I never thought of this and it makes perfect sense. However, to me it seems to defeat the purpose of the ETA because the machine is supposed to be figuring this out for you instead of you having to do it. I guess it depends on how much extra effort you want to put into the tuning. At some point you will save a lot of time just using your ears.

Having said that, I only seem to have a problem in the bass using Tunelab so I just ignore the machine and tune by ear. By contrast, Tunelab usually does a fine job in the treble so I just tune to the indicator and then listen to make sure it is okay; and it almost always is.


What the machine figures out is based on some sort of algorithm, and I do not see what algorithm works. The mathematics is complex and inexact, so how can I trust it? On the other hand, the physics of what I hear is really simple, so for me, I would rather rely on my ears than on what a machine tells me. It has just been a question of developing my ear to hand coordination. One thing that happens: your ear gets better and better. The machine does not.

At a recent concert I tuned for, the oboist in the Poulenc Sextour complimented me by saying that my A 440 was right on. I told her that was especially gratifying, because I tune with a C fork.


Semipro Tech
Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: That Guy] #2688662
11/10/17 07:36 PM
11/10/17 07:36 PM
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Hi Scott,

What notes do you normally measure when using TuneLab for a P12 tuning?

Do you edit the table of partials?

Do you normally use 6:2, 6:1, or other octave in the bass?

Thanks for your work on this!
Brent Musgrave


Brent Musgrave
Piano Tuner-Technician
Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: michaelopolis] #2729155
04/15/18 12:12 PM
04/15/18 12:12 PM
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Heya Scott, any more experiments with getting tunelab to match up with onlypure perfect 12ths tuning ?

Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: michaelopolis] #2729202
04/15/18 03:39 PM
04/15/18 03:39 PM
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I haven't continued to experiment. In fact recently I've been using another app Easy Piano Tuner (EPT). I've started another thread about it on this forum. You might check it out.

My best suggestion with TuneLab is to use 3:1 12ths in the treble and 6:2 12ths in the bass. Tune the treble section first and then the bass section going down making sure to check all the octaves, like an aural tuning. In my comparisons the treble section lined up with a P12ths tuning, it was the bass that I couldn't get to line up. So, with a little bit of ear work, I think you'll come out with a pretty good P12ths tuning.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: michaelopolis] #2729232
04/15/18 05:59 PM
04/15/18 05:59 PM
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Those of you who have a goal of a p12th tuning - be aware that most of the electronic tuning devices will default to a tempered 5th when calculating out to the 3:1 or 6:2 - Experiment with the amount of correction factor that you might need to use to get those 12ths to really match up with your expectations!

I know of at least one tech that gets around this by direct referencing using a machine to compare the partials manually, but there should be a way to "fudge factor" to get the calculation to come how you intend.

Ron Koval

Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: That Guy] #2729249
04/15/18 08:38 PM
04/15/18 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by That Guy
I haven't continued to experiment. In fact recently I've been using another app Easy Piano Tuner (EPT). I've started another thread about it on this forum. You might check it out.

My best suggestion with TuneLab is to use 3:1 12ths in the treble and 6:2 12ths in the bass. Tune the treble section first and then the bass section going down making sure to check all the octaves, like an aural tuning. In my comparisons the treble section lined up with a P12ths tuning, it was the bass that I couldn't get to line up. So, with a little bit of ear work, I think you'll come out with a pretty good P12ths tuning.


Many thanks for that Scott

In addition you still recommend sampling the highest wound string in the bass only, along with 3 or 4 other notes from the mid,tenor,treble ? And auto-partial selection ON ?

Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: michaelopolis] #2729385
04/16/18 12:52 PM
04/16/18 12:52 PM
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Quote
In addition you still recommend sampling the highest wound string in the bass only, along with 3 or 4 other notes from the mid,tenor,treble ? And auto-partial selection ON ?


Yes, it seemed like that sampling strategy worked okay. As far as auto-partial selection is concerned, I guess it doesn't matter much if you're tuning the bass section aurally. I usually had the best luck with keeping it off.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: michaelopolis] #2729406
04/16/18 01:49 PM
04/16/18 01:49 PM
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Thanks again Scott
Tried it today on a little yamaha upright, Tunelab made a great job of it, just a little bit of tweaking in the bass needed but I was very pleased with how it turned out.

It even did a pretty good job of the transition into the bass break, Will be interesting to try it out on a few other instruments and hear the results.

Last edited by michaelopolis; 04/16/18 04:10 PM.
Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: michaelopolis] #2729476
04/16/18 06:48 PM
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Great to hear!

Originally Posted by michaelopolis
It even did a pretty good job of the transition into the bass break, Will be interesting to try it out on a few other instruments and hear the results.


Yes, as you might expect, it's poorly scaled pianos that don't turn out as well. But with a little ear work it's fine.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Verituner vs Tunelab [Re: michaelopolis] #2729526
04/16/18 11:24 PM
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Thought i'd post a pic of the generated curve using Scotts suggested settings.
The deviation curve is interesting, almost a straight line, still trying to decipher it.
[Linked Image]

Last edited by michaelopolis; 04/16/18 11:26 PM.
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