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Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone #2729133
04/15/18 10:20 AM
04/15/18 10:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 479
Rockville, MD
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In a quest for a little more "oomph", with the help of a technician friend, I've tried an experiment to see what difference changing to WNG carbon fibre hammer shanks and flanges in the 2nd capo area of my piano. Here is a picture of what's been done so far.

http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/galleries/2729131.html#Post2729131

Based on the results, I'd like to move forward and replace JUST the shanks and flanges in the 2nd capo area.

My technician has written WNG at least once about it; over a month has gone by, and they have not replied. (He has installed several complete sets, so they know him as a client).

If any of you have any "extra" WNG shanks and flanges and would be willing to sell them, we need 19 more to finish the 2nd capo area. Please PM me here if you can help this project.

[Yes, I know it might be better to replace ALL the shanks and flanges, but... 1) I'm not convinced that's the best musical option. Kawai, e.g., uses carbon fibre but NOT in the shanks, and 2) I really don't have the cash to do a complete set now. At some point, I need to replace the nearly 100 year old keysticks and am saving my $s towards a new keyboard from Klug. (sigh).

Good day to all.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
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Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2729158
04/15/18 12:38 PM
04/15/18 12:38 PM
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kpembrook Offline
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More info needed.

I imagine I have 19 shanks/flanges but from different sets. You need to specify 3 things -- 2 of which are essential:
1) Distance from centerpin to center of knuckle core.
2) Distance from centerpin to center of flange screw hole
3) Ideally, diameter of knuckle.

The other issue is that WN&G uses 3 different wall thicknesses of their CF shank tubes. It might not make a lot of difference and certainly would be an improvement over wood but you probably need either the "white" or "blue" wall thickness. I know some of my extras are "red".


It's not just the carbon fiber material in the shanks.... it's also the rigid centerpin bushings. Kawai hasn't figured out how to do that yet. I have replaced shanks flanges on the Kawai Millennium II action with positive results.
So... yes, you really should consider a full set of shanks/flanges. I understand the budget constraints but you certainly won't want to end up with a nice new keyboard and a mishmash of top action components, either.

As far as WN&G supplying partial sets, they have no incentive to do so. What do they do with the rest of the parts in the set they have broken up to accommodate you? It's not like they have them in a big bin and just package them into sets when they get the order.

I know you asked for PM but I thought some of this information might be useful to others, as well. Feel free to PM me if you wish.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
Editor Emeritus, Piano Technicians Journal
Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2729169
04/15/18 01:49 PM
04/15/18 01:49 PM
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New Hampshire
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My PTG Chapter has a Steinert C as our project, The shank CP to knuckle core is (surprisingly) 16.9 mm. It has a WNG action, albeit the earlier wood ones. WNG can fit the shanks with 8, 9, 10, or 11 mm. knuckles. You can get the knuckles unmounted, so the tech can glue them on at the required distance. WNG sells copies of the earlier WNG shanks, but you will want to confirm that they will fit by examining the originals for the proper data.

It is not typical to change shanks and flanges without replacing hammers. One difficulty is that the CF WNG shanks are smaller in diameter than the original - the holes will have to be plugged and redrilled for the smaller shanks. Since the hammers are already tapered, coved, and curved, he will have to make a jig to be able to bore them at the correct angle.

I happily use WNG parts all the time, but I don't think this is the best way to go about it. The benefits are small enough to not justify the expense.

Call WNG tech support and ask for Mark Burgett. You should be able to get your answers.


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2729171
04/15/18 01:50 PM
04/15/18 01:50 PM
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P W Grey Offline
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I thoroughly agree with Keith and Will here. You may also inadvertently open a can of worms here.

My .02

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 04/15/18 01:51 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
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Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2729176
04/15/18 02:06 PM
04/15/18 02:06 PM
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New Hampshire
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WilliamTruitt Offline
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My PTG Chapter has a Steinert C as our project, The shank CP to knuckle core is (surprisingly) 16.9 mm. It has a WNG action, albeit the earlier wood ones. WNG can fit the shanks with 8, 9, 10, or 11 mm. knuckles. You can get the knuckles unmounted, so the tech can glue them on at the required distance. WNG sells copies of the earlier WNG shanks, but you will want to confirm that they will fit by examining the originals for the proper data.

It is not typical to change shanks and flanges without replacing hammers. One difficulty is that the CF WNG shanks are smaller in diameter than the original - the holes will have to be plugged and redrilled for the smaller shanks. Since the hammers are already tapered, coved, and curved, he will have to make a jig to be able to bore them at the correct angle.

I happily use WNG parts all the time, but I don't think this is the best way to go about it. The benefits are small enough to not justify the expense.

Call WNG tech support and ask for Mark Burgett. You should be able to get your answers.


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2729199
04/15/18 03:26 PM
04/15/18 03:26 PM
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Boston, MA
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Yeah, not at all clear what 'hot rodding oomph' means..

Power transfer and total spectrum tone is much more influenced by very precise, sub-millimeter regulation and very careful hammer travel/square/alignment to the string. Bring hammer center friction down above the alto region, if necessary. The repetition and checking event is integral. WNG shanks will reduce the spring constant of the shank, thereby limiting the dwell time on the string.. and probability of microsecond wobbling near the strike event.

Shape of the hammer, strike point, hammer mass and felt type are also all higher order variables..



Industry professional, registered technician..
Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2729214
04/15/18 04:09 PM
04/15/18 04:09 PM
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KLX-F1, Add careful hammer weighting and evenly graduated strike weights to your list Add Stanwood or Weight Bench leading protocols to the list also.

Looking at the grooves in the felt at the top of the hammer, it looks like the hammers are undercentering - the markings are not centered on the crown of the hammer, but are forward (towards the player). If they are going to be re-bored in the shank exchange, measure the string height and subtract the hammer shank center pin height from that. That value will be what the hammer bore should be, and will be shorter than what you presently have. The regulation will then have fewer compromises.

What kind of hammers are on your piano?


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2729228
04/15/18 05:24 PM
04/15/18 05:24 PM
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In addition to what Will said, if you shorten the bore distance, you will need to be mindful of how high the shank is over the cushion, at rest. You may also find that drop adjustment can sometimes be a problem with altered bores.
All in all, for the effort of re-drilling hammers and rehanging them, it seems penny-wise. Better to save up for a full set of hammers and shanks.
Regards,

Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2729230
04/15/18 05:53 PM
04/15/18 05:53 PM
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I am curious: What results do you expect to get?


Semipro Tech
Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2729235
04/15/18 06:37 PM
04/15/18 06:37 PM
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P W Grey Offline
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Have you checked your V bar? What about strike point. What about needling the sustain area of the hammers? Have you checked your sound board impedance?

I suspect you're looking in the wrong places.

What will you do if you go make these proposed changes and only get a slight improvement (or none overall)? Testing one or two notes does not assure success throughout the entire section.

Can of worms you're opening...

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2729322
04/16/18 08:02 AM
04/16/18 08:02 AM
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From a pianists perspective who has all WNG action on a Steinway B...

I was in my local Steinway Gallery over the weekend. They have a couple of Spirio's in and I wanted to see it. (More on that in another thread.) Anyway, while waiting on the salesman, I sat down and tinker on the C&A Model D. It's a really nice piano. It's voiced really well and nicely regulated. It responded nicely to everything I wanted it to do. I really liked the new NY Hammers and the way they were voiced. The range of tonal colors was pretty sweet. But there was a huge difference in the feel of the action between it and my S&S B with all WNG parts. I could definitely tell that I was playing on a wooden action. It took a little bit to adjust my touch to get it to respond accurately. I'll describe my WNG action as quick, tight, and accurate. Where as, the wood action felt a little sluggish. The best way I can describe the wood action on the the S&S D is that I could "feel" the grain in the wood. There was a little resistance and a "rub". Don't get me wrong, it played nicely. And once I made the adjustment, it played wonderfully. There were customers in the store and they complimented my playing. I moved on b/c I thought I was having too much fun and being obnoxious, but they all said I should continue. When I got home, I set down at my "B", and it was so smooth and tight. A huge difference.

So my point? I think the techs here are leading you in the right direction. With that experience fresh on my mind, I can't imaging mixing WNG CF in with wood components on the same piano. I think you have to go all or nothing or you'll be really unhappy with the results. I think it would be fine to only do shanks and flanges, and leave the wood whippens. In my case, the damper action is still wooden on my "B". But I think the WNG CF section will feel very different from the rest of the piano and you'll really notice the difference playing it.

Last edited by GC13; 04/16/18 08:07 AM.
Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2729336
04/16/18 09:16 AM
04/16/18 09:16 AM
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Rockville, MD
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Thanks for your interest and your replies which I will share with my technician.

To some of the questions and considerations raised:

- Current hammers are Abel Natural Select Medium Weight.
- I plan on replacing ALL the hammers in the next 6 months; I'm at the piano, practicing different solo repertoire at least 25 hours a week, playing collaboratively and teaching several more hours, and, depending on what I'm working on, hammers wear at a higher rate than for the casual player. Right now, we're looking at the hammers Renner is making for Hamburg as the likely replacements.
- Regarding Ed Foote's suggestion for a complete set of hammers, shanks and flanges, I believe I remember reading that this is what you have been doing at Vanderbilt with great results. To say I have immense respect for your expertise, as well as some of your North Bennett Street peers whom I have the good fortune to know, is understatement, so I will take that into discussion with Jim. For me, it's not necessarily a way to save on shanks and flanges, although the Renner shanks and flanges are in great condition with years of life left in them. It's more about tonal aesthetic - I hope this next comment is not inflammatory, but Kawai seems to have gone the all carbon fibre route only to retreat for the hammer shanks - keeping carbon fibre for the flanges with all its benefits there (particularly useful in an institutional setting because of the stability afforded by that composite material). They give the reason that the tone was preferable with wood, so... that's where I'm starting.

I'll report back if there's any further interest on what we do.
Thanks again.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2729369
04/16/18 11:40 AM
04/16/18 11:40 AM
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Andrew, the best of luck in your endeavor. If you are going to replace the hammers in the next 6 months, then forego the patchwork installation of the WNG shanks for now, and save your sheckels for other things that will give you more bang for your limited buck. Whatever effect CF has versus wood, it is a subtle one, and your hammer choice and the skill of your tech as a voicer will have far more impact on the tone than the CF might. I have been installing WNG shanks with new hammers since 2009, and I have never had a customer complain. I rebuilt a Steinway D action using all WNG action parts about 2 years ago. My customer loves the feel and sound of his piano, and it is used regularly by artists in his recording studio.

I don't know if your technician bores his own hammers, but even if he doesn't, his supplier should be able to bore the set to the specific needs of your piano. Indeed, the more capable he is of doing truly custom work throughout the action, the better the result will be for you.

There are other practical reasons to consider WNG parts, such as stability. They don't swell and shrink and warp like wood parts and are very consistent. There is less variation in the weight of the shanks with WNG CF shanks than there is with wood. That variability in weight with wood is itself a voicing issue (as are the hammers, of course). The center pinning is far more stable than with the wood counterpart.

It may behoove you to have the action geometry analyzed when you change the hammers. It is important that the several leverage ratios combined have enough mechanical advantage to readily lift the weight of the hammers throughout the scale; if not, you will need to add more lead to get your down weights to an acceptable range. The keyboard will need to be releaded anyway with the installation of new hammers.


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: GC13] #2729375
04/16/18 12:07 PM
04/16/18 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by GC13
The best way I can describe the wood action on the the S&S D is that I could "feel" the grain in the wood.


That is impossible. Think of the various interfaces and pivot points and how they move (capstan, jack, knuckle, felt, bushings, pins, etc.). The only wood on wood contact is at the keys (other techs, check me on this), which all acoustic piano actions have.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
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Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: terminaldegree] #2729395
04/16/18 01:17 PM
04/16/18 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by GC13
The best way I can describe the wood action on the the S&S D is that I could "feel" the grain in the wood.


That is impossible. Think of the various interfaces and pivot points and how they move (capstan, jack, knuckle, felt, bushings, pins, etc.). The only wood on wood contact is at the keys (other techs, check me on this), which all acoustic piano actions have.


As I said "the best way I can describe it". I''m sure that's not technically possible to feel the wood grain. That was just my way of trying to describe the sensation (feedback) I got from the wood action on the D I play compared to my day-to-day playing on WNG. I certainly didn't intent to mislead anyone. eek cool

Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2729589
04/17/18 11:22 AM
04/17/18 11:22 AM
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P W Grey Offline
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GC13,

The feeling you are referring to is precisely part of what Steinway wants to preserve in their wood actions. It is the feeling many pianists have simply become used to. It's part of the "this is the way we've always done it...why mess with success?" viewpoint there (which is not necessarily wrong).

I am not elevating one over the other. WNG are great parts, but the very fact that they felt the need to produce a more flexible shank (to meet market expectations, i.e. make it feel a little more "traditional") proves that "better" is not ALWAYS better...but it is different, and one can get used to it and eventually prefer it.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: P W Grey] #2729711
04/17/18 06:46 PM
04/17/18 06:46 PM
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Michigan
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
GC13,

The feeling you are referring to is precisely part of what Steinway wants to preserve in their wood actions. It is the feeling many pianists have simply become used to. It's part of the "this is the way we've always done it...why mess with success?" viewpoint there (which is not necessarily wrong).

I am not elevating one over the other. WNG are great parts, but the very fact that they felt the need to produce a more flexible shank (to meet market expectations, i.e. make it feel a little more "traditional") proves that "better" is not ALWAYS better...but it is different, and one can get used to it and eventually prefer it.

Pwg



Yes but...

The claim that wood has a certain feel simply can't be true in the sense of a consistent, reproducible, always-is-like-this sort of thing. One truth that is universally accepted about wood is that it is variable. "No single piece of wood is like any other single piece" is the way that it is sometimes expressed. And that means that wood components do not have a consistent feel -- either from note-to-note or set-to-set. It may be that someone may like the feel of a particular set of wooden components -- there's no accounting for taste -- but one cannot meaningfully say that they "prefer wood parts" because there's no content to the statement. It may be on a particular instrument there is a preference but there is so much variability in wood that saying that something "feels like wood" has no meaning. In fact, some wood shanks are stiff enough to "feel like carbon fiber".

As far as WN&G making the flex 2 shanks, that's just a marketing response to technician demand -- who think that somehow the bendy shanks will be more "like wood". Its not that WN&G really "felt the need".
I just installed a set of hammers on some flex 2 shanks (on an action rebuild that I "inherited" from a colleague) and I can say that personally I don't like them. WN&G doesn't like them either, as far as that's concerned.



Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
Editor Emeritus, Piano Technicians Journal
Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: kpembrook] #2729812
04/18/18 08:39 AM
04/18/18 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by kpembrook
Originally Posted by P W Grey
GC13,

The feeling you are referring to is precisely part of what Steinway wants to preserve in their wood actions. It is the feeling many pianists have simply become used to. It's part of the "this is the way we've always done it...why mess with success?" viewpoint there (which is not necessarily wrong).

I am not elevating one over the other. WNG are great parts, but the very fact that they felt the need to produce a more flexible shank (to meet market expectations, i.e. make it feel a little more "traditional") proves that "better" is not ALWAYS better...but it is different, and one can get used to it and eventually prefer it.

Pwg



Yes but...

The claim that wood has a certain feel simply can't be true in the sense of a consistent, reproducible, always-is-like-this sort of thing. One truth that is universally accepted about wood is that it is variable. "No single piece of wood is like any other single piece" is the way that it is sometimes expressed. And that means that wood components do not have a consistent feel -- either from note-to-note or set-to-set. It may be that someone may like the feel of a particular set of wooden components -- there's no accounting for taste -- but one cannot meaningfully say that they "prefer wood parts" because there's no content to the statement. It may be on a particular instrument there is a preference but there is so much variability in wood that saying that something "feels like wood" has no meaning. In fact, some wood shanks are stiff enough to "feel like carbon fiber".

As far as WN&G making the flex 2 shanks, that's just a marketing response to technician demand -- who think that somehow the bendy shanks will be more "like wood". Its not that WN&G really "felt the need".
I just installed a set of hammers on some flex 2 shanks (on an action rebuild that I "inherited" from a colleague) and I can say that personally I don't like them. WN&G doesn't like them either, as far as that's concerned.




I have the WNG Flex 2 and I like it. I played a M&H BB with standard WNG Shanks and an S&S B with WNG Flex 2 before I made the decision. I personally couldn't tell that much difference, so I went with Flex 2 since mine is an S&S B also. Keith hit on exactly what I meant by "feel the wood". There was s different feeling -- friction, resistance -- to the NY S&S wood action where the WNG CF action is smooth as silk. When you play the 2 types of actions side-by-side the difference stands out immediately, and once you get used to CF, a wood action can be quite challenging when you first sit down at a wood action again. That's what I was referring to, no the feel of the stiffness or give in the shank when the hammers strike the strings. And smoothness vs. friction is what I can't imagine mixing together in the action -- be it shanks and flanges, whippens, or both.

Last edited by GC13; 04/18/18 08:43 AM.
Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: GC13] #2729867
04/18/18 12:09 PM
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Still trying to understand what it is that people feel with "wooden shanks"....

As I said before, I'm sure it isn't the wood itself since that is not a consistent, clearly-defined quality.

Now, I'm wondering if it is the felt bushings which wood shanks/flanges have. While I'm not sensitive to have isolated that item, I'm beginning to suspect that is what it is. WN&G hard bushings are definitely lower friction and without texture -- whereas the felt clearly has a texture which acts upon the centerpin in a different way.

Could that be the factor people are sensing?


Keith Akins, RPT
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Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2729892
04/18/18 01:36 PM
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I think it within the realm of possibility that there may be some detectable "feel" between the friction that is inherent to a WNG action center, and the friction of wooden parts, as Keith surmises

That said, I do have to otherwise wonder about the "feel" of wood in an action. The only frictional interfaces that I can think of with wood are the knuckle-jack and the knuckle - rep lever ones. The other contact points are leather (or ecsaine) or felt.

Is it possible that what we are talking about is little more than confirmation bias?


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: WilliamTruitt] #2729909
04/18/18 02:14 PM
04/18/18 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamTruitt

Is it possible that what we are talking about is little more than confirmation bias?


That's sort of what I was hinting at - sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative, GC13... I'm sure it does feel different, because I've tried both. I don't get a lot of opportunities to A/B compare on the same brand and model, prepped by the same technician, though, which muddies the waters a bit.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
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Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: terminaldegree] #2729921
04/18/18 03:07 PM
04/18/18 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kpembrook
Still trying to understand what it is that people feel with "wooden shanks"....

As I said before, I'm sure it isn't the wood itself since that is not a consistent, clearly-defined quality.

Now, I'm wondering if it is the felt bushings which wood shanks/flanges have. While I'm not sensitive to have isolated that item, I'm beginning to suspect that is what it is. WN&G hard bushings are definitely lower friction and without texture -- whereas the felt clearly has a texture which acts upon the centerpin in a different way.

Could that be the factor people are sensing?



Yes, I think that's it. Although I'm not the best player by far, I've always been sensitive to the "feel" of the action -- it's response and consistency and how it affects my ability to control the piano. Of course voicing comes into the picture too.

When I played the WNG Flex 2 side-by-side with the standard shank I couldn't tell a difference between them. There's a sensation, a rub, friction, smoothness, and tightness to the WNG carbon fiber action that I find very appealing.

Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by WilliamTruitt

Is it possible that what we are talking about is little more than confirmation bias?


That's sort of what I was hinting at - sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative, GC13... I'm sure it does feel different, because I've tried both. I don't get a lot of opportunities to A/B compare on the same brand and model, prepped by the same technician, though, which muddies the waters a bit.


Oh, I didn't take it as argumentative at all Terminaldegree! I know I didn't pick the best terminology to describe the difference.

Back to my main point to the OP from a players perspective with experience with both actions. I can definitely feel a distinct difference, so I just don't think it's a good idea to mix components in any section based on the difference I feel when I've played wood vs. WNG side-by-side /back-to-back. That I'll stand on hands down. WNG shanks and flanges? Then use them on all 88 or stick with wood. Same on whippens.

Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2729976
04/18/18 06:16 PM
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P W Grey Offline
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I can go with bushings too. There a definite difference. Add the fact that the Steinway cloth bushings are quite thick compared to many years ago. This may add to the "feel" also. Not that I can say for sure...just speculating.

I also agree...don't mix 'em up.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2730028
04/18/18 09:57 PM
04/18/18 09:57 PM
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Greetings,
There is little doubt that there is more compliance in a felt bushing than in a hard one. The same phenomenon occurred with the Teflon parts, but the geometry was so poor, no one noticed. Substituting three composite bushings for the three felt bushings in the power train could certainly change a measurable, and perhaps detectable, amount of compliance, hence, a different "feel".

The wooden shanks introduce an uncontrolled,(for the most part), variable into the entire action's response, so trying to compare the clearly defined carbon fiber response to the randomly variable one offered by wood is difficult. I don't think it is the difference in flex, I. think it is the lack of compliance and the more instant response that the pianist feels.
Regard,s

Re: Hot Rodding the 2nd Capo Area on 1929 Steinert "B" Clone [Re: Seeker] #2730857
04/22/18 12:35 PM
04/22/18 12:35 PM
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Rockville, MD
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Good Morning,

I've been busy 3 weekends in a row with public recitals. Back with a little time today to smell the flowers in the garden and catch up on this thread.

Regarding the "feel" of the WNG shanks/flanges, I feel zero difference on the two experimental ones installed in my piano. I **do** hear some difference in the sound, a bit more volume, "oomph", which is what I wanted.

On the subject of touch "feel", Kawai asserts in its promotional literature for the Millenium Action, "The jack is redesigned with a microscopic surface texture to provide unparalleled control
for pianissimo playing".

I **do** remember the SK-7 that I played was extremely controllable, and the whole action felt "silky" to me. I'm betting some of that came from the quality in the bushing of the keys, rather than the texturing of the jack... but I don't know.

For your consideration.

Good Day to All.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")

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