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Steinway Spiro RECORD now available on Model D ONLY #2729332
04/16/18 08:56 AM
04/16/18 08:56 AM
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GC13 Offline OP
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I was in my local Steinway Gallery over the weekend. They had 2 Model "M" Spirio pianos on the floor. Since I had never actually seen one in action, I wanted a demo. The salesman showed me the basics of the app so I took it out for a spin. It was fun to tinker with, and it would be nice to have a player system of any kind. I could see myself sitting for hours just watching "others" play my piano and learning from their moves and techniques.

I posted an article that I saw about Spirio a few weeks back that got lots of discussion about the various player systems available -- the differences, pros and cons. http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...iece-on-steinway-spirio.html#Post2724845

Another customer was in the store, and we had a discussion about how Spirio had to be installed on new instruments at the factory and that disadvantage. The customer sounded interested in a player system, and he explained that they could help him with an aftermarket option, just not Spirio even though it was a Steinway.

One of the "sub threads" thru the other thread was the lack of records function available to the general public, where the "record" Spirio pianos are and who has access to them. In our conversation, the sales rep happened to mention that the "Record" version of Spirio is now available from Steinway, but will only be available on a Model D. Previously, Spirio only been an option on models B & M-- without "record".

So, of course I have my thoughts on that, but I'll leave it up to all of you to chime in. Let the discussion begin. ;-)

Last edited by GC13; 04/16/18 09:02 AM.
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Re: Steinway Spiro RECORD now available on Model D ONLY [Re: GC13] #2729460
04/16/18 04:58 PM
04/16/18 04:58 PM
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BerndAB Offline
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I own a (ancient) D.... and would like to get an offer from Steinway HH for an aftermarket installation.

And I would like to have a good documentation on the internal velocity etc. data representation, to modify my errorneous playing afterwards by editing software.


Pls excuse any bad english.

D 1877 satin black plain
Re: Steinway Spiro RECORD now available on Model D ONLY [Re: GC13] #2729471
04/16/18 05:51 PM
04/16/18 05:51 PM
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Foster City, CA, US
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Ken Iisaka Offline
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I was a at Steinway store yesterday, and the availability of recording functionality on a D was mentioned.

Re: Steinway Spiro RECORD now available on Model D ONLY [Re: GC13] #2729515
04/16/18 10:03 PM
04/16/18 10:03 PM
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Rich Galassini Offline
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Rich Galassini  Offline
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This is a step forward for Steinway.

But I was at YASI (Yamaha Artist Services) in Manhattan about a year ago. I was there to watch Byron Janis give a remote masterclass to fine young pianists in Moscow. He spoke to them and played for them.... in real time!

[Linked Image]

I wish Steinway the best but they are just playing catch up to a great system in the Disklavier and a great piano in the CFX.

My 2 cents,


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Check out the Science Channel's "How Its Made" featuring our piano restoration:
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Re: Steinway Spiro RECORD now available on Model D ONLY [Re: BerndAB] #2729566
04/17/18 08:53 AM
04/17/18 08:53 AM
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GC13 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BerndAB
I own a (ancient) D.... and would like to get an offer from Steinway HH for an aftermarket installation.

And I would like to have a good documentation on the internal velocity etc. data representation, to modify my errorneous playing afterwards by editing software.


Steinway will not do an aftermarket installation of Spirio. They say it can only be installed on new instruments during the build, which doesn't really make sense to me.

However, A local dealer (maybe a Steinway Gallery) or RPT can sell an aftermarket system like PianoDisc on your piano.

Re: Steinway Spiro RECORD now available on Model D ONLY [Re: Rich Galassini] #2729568
04/17/18 08:59 AM
04/17/18 08:59 AM
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GC13 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
This is a step forward for Steinway.

But I was at YASI (Yamaha Artist Services) in Manhattan about a year ago. I was there to watch Byron Janis give a remote masterclass to fine young pianists in Moscow. He spoke to them and played for them.... in real time!

[Linked Image]

I wish Steinway the best but they are just playing catch up to a great system in the Disklavier and a great piano in the CFX.

My 2 cents,


I was a video of that posted by Sweetwater Sound when they took over the Ft.Wayne, Indiana area Yamaha dealership back in 2011 from the local company that had held it for years. It was amazing to watch. The pianist was Mike Garson. That really shows how far behind Steinway is on this, huh?

Here's the video. Mike Garson appears at around 7:36 and plays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e9WrAt70j4

Last edited by GC13; 04/17/18 09:04 AM.
Re: Steinway Spiro RECORD now available on Model D ONLY [Re: GC13] #2729673
04/17/18 05:12 PM
04/17/18 05:12 PM
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Corvus Offline
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Well, that is nice for institutions, but not many households have the space or $$$ for a D. I could see myself possibly going for a Hamburg B with record capability.

Did they say how much more the recording D cost than a regular D?
Is the Model D available with the non-recording Spirio system, or just the recording?

I wonder if they will offer a version of the zenph Re-Perform high-definition midi editor that was developed initially to edit data from the disklavier pro, but was then purchased by Steinway and removed from the market. I think it is ridiculous that Yamaha has not developed their own software editor capable of editing the high definition data from the disklavier pro. They are happy to tout the 1000 + levels of volume the disklavier pro is capable of recording and reproducing, but if you want to edit the recording, you have to export it as a standard midi file, thus losing all that high-definition data.

I had a phone conversation with Wayne Stahnke about a year before the sale of Live Performance to Stenway was announced. I told him I was looking for very accurate reproducing/recording system, and he said that the accuracy required for installing such systems made it cost-prohibitive for the consumer market, except as a factory install. Of the high-definition piano recording systems (Live Performance, Disklavier, Bösendorfer CEUS, and Spirio—am I missing any?), only CEUS has ever been offered as a retrofit (for $80,000+ !!).

Re: Steinway Spiro RECORD now available on Model D ONLY [Re: GC13] #2729681
04/17/18 05:21 PM
04/17/18 05:21 PM
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Retsacnal Offline

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Assuming their rationale for not allowing retro-fit sales is to sell new Steinways, then the rationale to include a recording version only on the D is probably to sell more of them. I'm speculating, of course. When I earned my MBA, many moons ago, one professor's mantra when it came to business analysis was "follow the money." The bottom-line is always the bottom-line. OTOH, perhaps they believe only the D offers the finest performance worthy of capturing. wink


I M A G I N A T I O N is more important than knowledge -Albert Einstein
Re: Steinway Spiro RECORD now available on Model D ONLY [Re: GC13] #2729686
04/17/18 05:27 PM
04/17/18 05:27 PM
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Retsacnal Offline

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So, what exactly is in the high definition data? Is it converting the piano music to a digital representation (i.e. regular midi), or is it storing physical stuff, like hammer velocity, damper and pedal movements, etc? If it's the former, I could see a rationale for only recording on a D, but if it's the latter, then it would seem like any model would be sufficient.


I M A G I N A T I O N is more important than knowledge -Albert Einstein
Re: Steinway Spiro RECORD now available on Model D ONLY [Re: GC13] #2729722
04/17/18 08:15 PM
04/17/18 08:15 PM
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Corvus Offline
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Well, different makers define high definition differently, to fit their products. Having more levels of expression than standard midi is one definition, and by that definition Pianodisc ProRecord would qualify. However, pianodisc does not record or play back proportional pedaling—the damper is just on or off, which I find inadequate.

Disklavier (and I believe CEUS) systems measure the velocity of the hammers (or maybe the hammer shanks?), whereas pianodisc and Story & Clark, and any other after-market system I'm aware of, measure the key velocity, which is not as closely related to the actual tone produced as the hammer velocity.

However, in regard to the editing software I was discussing, disklavier pro pianos record more than 1000 levels of volume, and standard midi instruments (and midi editors) only have 127.
The higher-definition disklavier pro data has to be down-converted to lower-resolution standard midi to use it with editing software.

Re: Steinway Spiro RECORD now available on Model D ONLY [Re: Corvus] #2729829
04/18/18 09:40 AM
04/18/18 09:40 AM
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GC13 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Corvus
Well, that is nice for institutions, but not many households have the space or $$$ for a D. I could see myself possibly going for a Hamburg B with record capability.

Did they say how much more the recording D cost than a regular D?
Is the Model D available with the non-recording Spirio system, or just the recording?

I wonder if they will offer a version of the zenph Re-Perform high-definition midi editor that was developed initially to edit data from the disklavier pro, but was then purchased by Steinway and removed from the market. I think it is ridiculous that Yamaha has not developed their own software editor capable of editing the high definition data from the disklavier pro. They are happy to tout the 1000 + levels of volume the disklavier pro is capable of recording and reproducing, but if you want to edit the recording, you have to export it as a standard midi file, thus losing all that high-definition data.

I had a phone conversation with Wayne Stahnke about a year before the sale of Live Performance to Stenway was announced. I told him I was looking for very accurate reproducing/recording system, and he said that the accuracy required for installing such systems made it cost-prohibitive for the consumer market, except as a factory install. Of the high-definition piano recording systems (Live Performance, Disklavier, Bösendorfer CEUS, and Spirio—am I missing any?), only CEUS has ever been offered as a retrofit (for $80,000+ !!).


I meant to ask about the cost of Spirio on a D and the options of standard vs. recording. The salesrep got me started with the app and had to go complete a sale, so I forgot to ask when he got freed up. To date, it hasn't been available to the public on a D, but I'd say all of the record versions of Spirios are D's. So, that's the easiest way to bring it to the market.

I have to say that the model M I heard sounded pretty nice. The piano itself didn't impress me until I heard it via Spirio.

Re: Steinway Spiro RECORD now available on Model D ONLY [Re: Corvus] #2730287
04/19/18 11:24 PM
04/19/18 11:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 205
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wolfgangmeister Offline
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Hi Corvus,

Overall you have provided some good insight in your description of PianoDisc and ProRecord, vs. the very capable Disklavier Pro HD play/record system and outstanding Wayne Stahnke LivePerformance LX / Spirio's playback system. The Disklavier Pro HD recording (and equally good HD playback) system is the best on the market... also developed by Mr. Stahnke.... it would be interesting to see what Spirio is offering as a recording option on the Model D. Optical sensors under the keybed? Measurement of hammer shanks as well? Does it record to the standard 128 MIDI levels or to an expanded MIDI set of 1024 levels? I do agree that Steinway's purchase of RePerformance and Live Performance LX was truly a bad thing for anyone not purchasing a new Steinway Spirio. The HD MIDI Editor (which was available on both PC Windows and Mac O/S) provided a level of editing not offered by anyone else, and was curiously never replaced by Yamaha or picked up by any other commercial MIDI Editor... effectively killing establishing a new industry MIDI HD Standard.

One thing that I would like to clarify is that PianoDisc's ProRecord system CAN and DOES provide MIDI recording capability of proportional sustain pedaling. This is an option that is provided to the user: DEFAULT is on/off, OPTION is Proportional Sustain pedaling. This is very useful when I am sharing my recorded MIDI performances with other Disklavier and Live Performance users! The Soft Pedal and Sostenuto Pedals can only be recorded by ProRecord as on/off commands.

PianoDisc's SilentDrive HD system however can only playback on/off sustain pedaling, as this is limited via the use of an on/off sustain pedal proportional solenoid. The system can be programmed as to how to interpret a proportional sustain MIDI command, or the user can use a standard MIDI Editor or tool to process the proportional waveform to their own desire... I use Spencer Chase's (http://www.spencerserolls.com) utilities to modify the recorded proportional sustain pedaling of my recorded MIDI performances to a desired on/off profile. Since the Silent Drive HD system does not provide any soft pedal solenoid, I also use these same tools to convert the on/off soft pedal MIDI data into a volume reduction, similar to what happens on an upright when the hammers are brought closer to the strings.

The other interesting thing I discovered is that the PianoDisc SilentDrive HD system CAN playback HD MIDI recordings recorded on Disklavier Pro HD systems... since it provides playback control to 1024 levels, not just the standard 128 MIDI levels. The ProRecord MIDI system however only records to the standard 128 MIDI levels of expression, via use of dual optical sensors located under the keybed.


Jason Solomonides
Mason & Hamlin 7' BB 93623
Yamaha 6'1" C3 (w/WNG) D3010008
My Piano Recordings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7aJcfJZZvg&list=PLkP65I5BsNirTcv-nAHm4BXXsCbB_EbAJ
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Re: Steinway Spiro RECORD now available on Model D ONLY [Re: GC13] #2730413
Yesterday at 02:53 PM
Yesterday at 02:53 PM
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Robert 45 Offline
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Just the other day, I heard a radio interview with the Auckland Steinway dealer who said that the record function would be the next step in the Spirio system. Now, it seems that the record facility is only for the Steinway D piano.
The implication from the local Steinway dealer was that it was going to be part of all "Spirio" instruments.

I think that Steinway should have considered this development more carefully with a both playback and record system from the launch of this new line of pianos.

Regards,
Robert.

Re: Steinway Spiro RECORD now available on Model D ONLY [Re: GC13] #2730429
Yesterday at 04:10 PM
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GC13 Offline OP
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I suspect that the decision to make only offer record on the model D may be an attempt to control the quality of the performances circulating on Spirio to protect the Steinway image. I think that was said in a previous "Spirio" when someone asked why a recording version of Spirio was not available to the public at all. Maybe their thinking is that if one purchases a model D, you are probably a highly skilled pianist, therefore any recordings you make on the piano would be to higher standards. Maybe not -- just a thought. I do happen to be a Steinway fan -- pretty much. I do own a nice model B.

Last edited by GC13; Yesterday at 04:12 PM.
Re: Steinway Spiro RECORD now available on Model D ONLY [Re: GC13] #2730459
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JohnSprung Offline
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The D-only policy may also be a toe in the water thing. When they have some experience with it, they may expand to other models. I don't see a technical reason not to.


-- J.S.

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