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Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
#2728500 04/12/18 12:50 PM
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I am no big audiophile, but I enjoy nice, clean and bright sound of any music/instrument. I am new owner of Kawai CA48, and I noticed (unfortunately after I damaged the box so I cannot return it) a quiet sharp noise, like resonance or vibration, when playing most of the notes when using headphones. First I though it is resonance coming from the headphones, but it is there with any headphones.

This noise is extreme when I set brilliance to +10. Then it is also noticeable form the speakers and during playing all notes every time. When I set up brilliance to 0, the noise is still noticeable from headphones, not always, from the speakers it is less noticeable. When the brilliance is set to some lower, negative numbers, the noise is not noticeable, but then the piano sound is bad... because of luck of brilliance.
Other setting does not do anything to the noise. It is there with virtual technician turned and other selections off, with any sounds...

I was in a shop and tried CN27, CN37, all have the same problem. Is it a feature or what? Now I really notice it a lot even with low brilliance setting, because I know it is there.

What is going on? That is so bad... Are other owners of KAWAI experiencing the same?


Kawai CA48
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2728503 04/12/18 12:58 PM
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It could be your ears. Get a second opinion. Another person might not hear these artifacts. (At my advanced age I'll bet I would not hear it.)

Anyway ... don't let a damaged box prevent you from returning the piano. The box has no value. So talk to the dealer and arrange an exchange or a substitute piano.

Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2728519 04/12/18 02:03 PM
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It is possible that this is a normal piano sound. A good digital piano (and the CA48 certainly is a first step into the high end range) simulates all kinds of resonances and overtones. It may be something like that.

Does the CA48 have an adjustable setting for the "undamped string resonances"? If so, then try adjusting it to the minimum. If not, does it have any adjustable resonances settings? Try setting those to a minimum.

Do you still hear the same noise?

Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
JoBert #2728525 04/12/18 02:31 PM
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CA48 has I limited settings options of the sound. Per the manual there is a ipad app that should allow more options. (I dont have an iPad) Anyway, I turn all to minimum but the noise is there when the brilliance is set to higher values. What about your NV10? When you set brilliance to +10, is the sound clear without any disturbing "vibration sounds?"

Edit: by limited settings I mean this is all that is there: http://www.kawai-global.com/data/manuals/CA48_EN_Operation_Guide.pdf

Last edited by Marcel M; 04/12/18 02:34 PM.

Kawai CA48
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2728531 04/12/18 03:24 PM
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The NV10 has a different sound engine than the CA48 so it's not really comparable. Also I don't know what exactly you mean by "disturbing vibrations" so I can't really say if I hear them on my piano or not.

From the doc you linked, the CA48 has a simple virtual technician. Compare the "Deep Resonances" setting with the "Light Resonances". Do you hear a difference regarding the noise?

Or can you make a recording (on which you hear the effect) and post it?

Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2728541 04/12/18 03:58 PM
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Here is the recording: soundcloud
The sound is obviously too bright, brilliance set to +10, others turned off. It is not as noticeable as live, but in 12-15seconds that is no mic issue or anything, that is what is coming out from the piano.
NO difference between "Deep Resonances" setting and the "Light Resonances" setting, noise-wise.

Last edited by Marcel M; 04/12/18 04:01 PM.

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Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2728604 04/12/18 08:10 PM
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Hello Marcel, welcome to the forum.

Originally Posted by Marcel M
I noticed...a quiet sharp noise, like resonance or vibration


I expect this is a natural characteristic of the original SK-EX concert grand piano.

Originally Posted by Marcel M
This noise is extreme when I set brilliance to +10.


Using a maximum Brilliance setting will almost certainly accentuate certain high frequency characteristics - this is to be expected. I personally would not recommend using such extreme settings.

Originally Posted by Marcel M
I was in a shop and tried CN27, CN37, all have the same problem. Is it a feature or what?


Again, I expect it's a characteristic of the original SK-EX piano sound, so not a problem.

As JoBert notes, the CA48 features the 'Smart Mode' Virtual Technician presets. In order to access the individual parameters of 'Advanced Mode' an iPad will be required.

Originally Posted by Marcel M
NO difference between "Deep Resonances" setting and the "Light Resonances" setting, noise-wise.


Okay, what about using the 'Noiseless' preset?
If you like a bright piano sound, I would recommend trying the 'Brilliant' preset with the Brilliance setting set to 0.

I have listened to your Soundcloud recording, but cannot hear any problems - it sounds like a very bright SK-EX sound recorded using a mobile phone.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2728622 04/12/18 09:42 PM
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Hi!
If you are not satisfied with the CA 48 sounds,
You also have the possibility to try a VST, hoping this DP has a midi plug.

Last edited by rolex67; 04/12/18 09:42 PM.
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2728661 04/13/18 01:05 AM
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Thanks guys for the input. If the Soundcloud sample really sounds OK, then there is simple something wrong with my ears.

Juste note, that my previous Yamaha YDP141 (1/3 of the price CA48) sounded super clear.
I personally like piano sound with "deep resonance" and bigger reverb (small hall), but brilliance has to be set to -4 so there is not buzzing noise. Second piano sound (Kawai EX) is more bright so it sound better with negative brilliance setting. But I would love SK-EX sound with brilliance +3 without buzzing.

Last edited by Marcel M; 04/13/18 04:34 AM.

Kawai CA48
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2728731 04/13/18 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcel M
Thanks guys for the input. If the Soundcloud sample really sounds OK, then there is simple something wrong with my ears.

Juste note, that my previous Yamaha YDP141 (1/3 of the price CA48) sounded super clear.
I personally like piano sound with "deep resonance" and bigger reverb (small hall), but brilliance has to be set to -4 so there is not buzzing noise. Second piano sound (Kawai EX) is more bright so it sound better with negative brilliance setting. But I would love SK-EX sound with brilliance +3 without buzzing.


Marcel M: one suggestion, go to the Kawai website and listen to some recordings made with the CA98. Do you also hear the "buzzing noise" in any of the CA98 demos? Although the CA98 has a different sound engine than the CA48, the "noise" you may actually be hearing may be the resonance or just the effect of a very high brilliance setting. You will find the demos under "Klangbeispiele" (Pianist modus): https://www.kawai.de/products/digitalpianos/caserie/ca98/

Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2728742 04/13/18 09:56 AM
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Ca48 comes with old PHI sound engine, same as in my ES7.
Do you hear such a noise in this track below?.
It's Concert Grand1+string resonance at 9/10+brilliant1 voicing+Heavy touch. No EQ (in the ES7 you have no brilliance knob, but can increase or lower it via EQ and voicing).
https://soundcloud.com/mabraman/edvard-grieg-arietta-op-12-n1

It's a little bit harsh sometimes but not noisy.


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2729020 04/14/18 04:08 PM
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mabraman, piano sound in your recording is very clean and beautiful, there is some background recording noice, otherwise it is clean. Here is my another recording using line-in instead of mic. The noise I am talking about should be more hearable from this one:

https://soundcloud.com/marcel-m-615275674/kawai-brilliance-noise-2


Kawai CA48
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2729193 04/15/18 03:07 PM
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I can't hear any strange noise, other than excesive brilliance. As headphones, I'd suggest that you buy some Sennheiser HD 558 or similar. They work well to darken the sound and mask kawai's typical harshnesh. CA48 has no great speakers, but you will get used to its sound.


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2729272 04/15/18 10:46 PM
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Hello Marcel,

Originally Posted by Marcel M
mabraman, piano sound in your recording is very clean and beautiful, there is some background recording noice, otherwise it is clean. Here is my another recording using line-in instead of mic. The noise I am talking about should be more hearable from this one:

https://soundcloud.com/marcel-m-615275674/kawai-brilliance-noise-2


I listened to your recording, but like mabraman, cannot hear anything strange...other than an excessive amount of brilliance.

I'm sorry that I cannot help further.

Kind regards,
James
x

Last edited by Kawai James; 04/15/18 10:46 PM.

Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
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Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2729301 04/16/18 04:54 AM
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Nor me, listening on HD650 headphones. I should add that background noise ("hiss") is high frequency in general, and increasing brilliance increases high frequencies, so some small increase in background noise is inevitable when you increase brilliance to very high levels, but I certainly couldn't detect any obvious or excessive noise in this.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2729315 04/16/18 07:03 AM
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Guys, you have to be kidding me.
When I play those recordings through iphone or laptop speakers, they sound OK, even on default iphone earbuds, but on any better headphones the noise is very noticeable on higher volume. Even on my old porta pro... I asked also my audiophile colleagues and they certainly can hear the noise and though that it is a recording problem. But it is not. That is actually what comes out from the piano.


Kawai CA48
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2729354 04/16/18 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcel M
Guys, you have to be kidding me.
When I play those recordings through iphone or laptop speakers, they sound OK, even on default iphone earbuds, but on any better headphones the noise is very noticeable on higher volume. Even on my old porta pro... I asked also my audiophile colleagues and they certainly can hear the noise and though that it is a recording problem. But it is not. That is actually what comes out from the piano.


I have listened to your recording (https://soundcloud.com/marcel-m-615275674/kawai-brilliance-noise-2 ) with BeyerDynamics DT-990 headphones which tend to be quite transparent when it comes to noise. And I hear no noise whatsoever. As said above, there is some high frequency "hiss" but that is expected. There also seems to be some distortion/clipping at around the 12 second mark (when you play the bass notes) but that is likely the result of recording through the line out port and/or an artefact from audio compression.

I do hear resonance effects around the 9 and 11 second mark (right after a high octave note is played and sustained for a second or so). Is the resonance the noise you are referring to?



Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2729365 04/16/18 11:23 AM
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I have here DT-990Pro, even without amp (they have 250Ohms) on Iphone (max VOLUME of course) the noise is there everytime the notes are played, On 7th second and 12- it is extreme...


Kawai CA48
Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2729368 04/16/18 11:39 AM
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The only 'noise' I can hear at the 7th second is a dissonance between the notes being played.

At the 12th second the chord played seems to have some fairly obvious resonance.

Does the noise persist with reverb turned off?

What about if VT is set to clean or noiseless? Or if you have access to an idevice, use the smart mode and adjust the resonances directly.

Re: Kawai CN/CA pianos sound noise (brilliance setting)
Marcel M #2729372 04/16/18 12:04 PM
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The only option that affect that noise is brilliance. Nothing else.


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