2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
73 members (36251, anotherscott, AZNpiano, AjinoRegret, Beowulf, Arty Movie, Carey, AaronSF, 21 invisible), 548 guests, and 266 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
#2729120 04/15/18 08:09 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 185
S
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 185
Hi smile
I've been sweating my way through this invention for over a month just to learn the notes. At my lesson the other day I was asked to practice it with a more non-legato touch ( and also to just concentrate to the first 12 measures ).
I'm having a hard time getting it right...when I try to break free of the legato it seems like I'm jumping over that sweet spot and it's too close to staccato!
It seems to improve when I speed up the tempo, although then I fumble notes, so I'd prefer to be able to practice the non-legato at a slow tempo for now.
Any tips for getting this right? Exercises? It's 11 days until my next lesson and I'd love to get a jump on it..

Thanks in advance!

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
SuzyUpright #2729132 04/15/18 10:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,212
T
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,212
Hi, SuzyUpright! I think your teacher is correct in his/her directive -- you should be able to play Bach without pedal and develop enough strength and suppleness in the fingers to project a clean non-legato sound. I would stick to the slower tempo, though, while trying to achieve that "semi-staccato" sound -- right now it sounds like your body hasn't caught up with your mind, so to speak. Bach needs to be "overlearned" to some degree, so that you can do most physical things without thinking about them.

Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
SuzyUpright #2729152 04/15/18 11:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 293
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 293
Take a day to get just one measure correct, and keep playing it until you automatically play it as you would like to hear it. Start slowly - really slowly - and make sure your mind is always focused on getting the non-legato touch (plus all the other articulations). Don't allow yourself to slip back into the legato playing. Once you're feeling you've mastered that measure, add another note or two and master those notes in addition to first bit. Keep on this way, until you find your habits and muscle memory have adjusted to the non-legato playing.

Be patient, though! It feels like it is a really slow method with no results at first and then suddenly it all starts to work and you get through the piece in no time.

Last edited by pianopi; 04/15/18 11:53 AM.

"Genius is not the sign of demigodliness, but the sign of having a profoundly practical mind" - anonymous

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTc4esj9xQG6NjLIr9an29Q
Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
pianopi #2729157 04/15/18 12:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 255
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 255
I don't understand - and that is not surprising since I am a beginner.
You are talking about non legato playing and we have both legato - one hand - and staccato - the other hand.
1st measure: stacatto
2nd measure: RH legato LH staccato
3rd measure: RH staccato LH legato
4th measure: RH non legato here? LH staccato
I think the difficulty stands on the differences between both hands.
Originally Posted by pianopi
Take a day to get just one measure correct, and keep playing it until you automatically play it as you would like to hear it. Start slowly - really slowly - and make sure your mind is always focused on getting the non-legato touch (plus all the other articulations). Don't allow yourself to slip back into the legato playing. Once you're feeling you've mastered that measure, add another note or two and master those notes in addition to first bit. Keep on this way, until you find your habits and muscle memory have adjusted to the non-legato playing.

Great piece of advice! But very difficult for us beginners to follow though.


Jaime CLP-645 😃
Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
SuzyUpright #2729160 04/15/18 01:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 185
S
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 185
Thanks for the responses folks!

@Tim Adrianson: Yes that makes sense to me Tim...going back to just the first 12 measures ( the ones I've practised the longest time ) has helped make me feel more comfortable for sure. Unfortunately I'm all too familiar with the problem of intellectual understanding not transferring to the ol' motor skills!

@pianopi: I will try that! I regret not doing it from the start, but maybe that's just one of the lessons I'll learn from this piece smile

@Sol Finker: There are no staccato markings on my copy (urtext). I was under the impression that while some of the 8th note measures might be more staccato-like ( such as in measures 18-20 ), generally it's closer to non-legato throughout...but I'm a beginner too so you could be right!

Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
SuzyUpright #2729164 04/15/18 01:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,897
Z
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Z
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,897
Originally Posted by SuzyUpright
Any tips for getting this right?
Play the opening figure as legato as possible but with only one finger, either index or middle, and use that arm motion when you return to your usual fingering and aim for the same sound. You can do the same thing with your scales and five finger exercises, if you do them.


Richard
Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
SuzyUpright #2729170 04/15/18 01:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,318
P
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,318
Piano teachers working with beginners (esp. with children) generally explain that there are two touches - legato and staccato - and they are polar opposites. Piano students are told we need to have both at our command, and that what makes the piano difficult is playing one of these touches in one hand at the same time as the other hand deploys the other touch. It's probably ok advice for a kid in his or her first year.

But it sets up a regrettable limitation to more mature playing, as Suzy is discovering. The non-legato "mid-range" of touches is pretty easy to acquire, if you just throw out the black/white contrast. Try instead to play "bad legato," if you will - a bit choppy sounding. Or conversely (and likely easier), try to play "wet staccato" or "flaccid, wimpy staccato." You'll get it, and develop your own feel for it.

My guess is that this will come pretty quickly once you grasp that it is a worthy, musical way of playing various passages or pieces. It will be of great use in all playing, but particularly in 18th Century music like Bach.

Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
zrtf90 #2729189 04/15/18 03:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,822
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,822
Originally Posted by zrtf90
Originally Posted by SuzyUpright
Any tips for getting this right?
Play the opening figure as legato as possible but with only one finger, either index or middle, and use that arm motion when you return to your usual fingering and aim for the same sound. You can do the same thing with your scales and five finger exercises, if you do them.

I find this to be the best advice. My teacher often suggested using one finger of one hand to "show" the other hand how to play. The other hand imitates not just the physical movement but also the sound. Using just one finger gives more control.

Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
SuzyUpright #2729196 04/15/18 03:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,822
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,822
Originally Posted by SuzyUpright

@Sol Finker: There are no staccato markings on my copy (urtext). I was under the impression that while some of the 8th note measures might be more staccato-like ( such as in measures 18-20 ), generally it's closer to non-legato throughout...but I'm a beginner too so you could be right!

There are no articulation marks in the urtext. But in general "staccato" in Baroque music isn't really staccato but more non-legato. Have you heared a violinist or cellist playing detached notes with the bow? The notes are short but sound like full notes and are never percussive like a bell. That's how Baroque staccato should sound.

Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
SuzyUpright #2729208 04/15/18 03:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 185
S
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 185
I will try all these suggestions over the coming week, much appreciated...
It's always a great shot of motivation hearing from the forum community smile
I hope eventually I can give back, but at this stage I'm all questions and no answers!

Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
SuzyUpright #2729294 04/16/18 03:10 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,223
O
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,223
Interestingly, I am working on the exact same invention right now. One suggestion that I received from a teacher which helped me was to think of the quarter notes as "sixteenth note and sixteenth rest". The piece has mostly eighth or sixteenth notes - and has one of them in one hand and the other in the other hand. So, if you treat the eighth note as "sixteenth note and sixteenth rest", while playing the sixteenth notes legato with the other hand - you can get the eighth note to sound detached without staccato. Now this is not quite right as sixteenth rest is a little too much of rest. So, once you can do it - try to decrease the rest period, leading to well-defined detached eighth notes.

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + VST. Current VST favorites (in the order of preference): VSL Synchron Concert D//Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6/Embertone Walker D Full

[Linked Image]
Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
SuzyUpright #2729297 04/16/18 03:46 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 255
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 255
So this is not urtext, I presume
https://www.dropbox.com/s/po284h9i7tejf3s/staccato_legato.JPG?dl=0

And what about this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhfg-M9FyT0

Thank you for your good advice.


Jaime CLP-645 😃
Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
SuzyUpright #2729299 04/16/18 04:02 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 185
S
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 185
Another great suggestion thanks Osho! I really like that idea, and if it wasn't 5:00am here in my part of Canada I'd try it right now...
Looking forward to practice later armed with a course of action. Last night I used zrtf90's one finger method and also just tried to achieve that sound in a five finger position, definately time well-spent. Today I'll start slowly with the score, a bit at a time.
Wishing you a lot of enjoyment from this invention Osho!

@Sol Finker: I'm not sure, I'm guessing some interpretations will play those eighth notes staccato and some scores may show them as such. My teacher has instructed me to play them non-legato, and she's the Boss! smile

Last edited by SuzyUpright; 04/16/18 04:11 AM.
Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
SuzyUpright #2729303 04/16/18 05:30 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 6,298
Silver Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 6,298
Hi Sol
The notes are marked stacatto, but in Baroque music it is more aptly considered as non-legato... In other words, not quite as short as a true staccato. Most here would recommend that you not use BachScholar as a reference. You can do a search on this forum if you want to see previous discussions


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
Sol Finker #2729309 04/16/18 06:20 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,897
Z
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Z
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,897
Originally Posted by Sol Finker
So this is not urtext, I presume
https://www.dropbox.com/s/po284h9i7tejf3s/staccato_legato.JPG?dl=0

And what about this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhfg-M9FyT0

Thank you for your good advice.

The score you posted is Czerny. Bach gave no indications of articulation, phrasing or dynamics.

The video is of Cory Hall. The more you listen to concert pianists the less you'll appreciate the clunkiness and insensitivty of Hall.


Richard
Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
dogperson #2729349 04/16/18 10:20 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 255
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by zrtf90
The video is of Cory Hall. The more you listen to concert pianists the less you'll appreciate the clunkiness and insensitivty of Hall.


Well, I think he has a PhD in Bach, hasn't he?
I am a beginner and almost everything here goes straight over my head.
Originally Posted by dogperson
Most here would recommend that you not use BachScholar as a reference.

I could have posted my own video playing Invention #8, but I think it wouldn't have added an inch of wisdom to the debate.

I really enjoy and appreciate your inputs. They show you care about us, adult beginners.

Thank you all.

Last edited by Sol Finker; 04/16/18 10:31 AM. Reason: poor grammar

Jaime CLP-645 😃
Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
Sol Finker #2729367 04/16/18 11:26 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,157
P
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,157
Originally Posted by Sol Finker
Originally Posted by zrtf90
The video is of Cory Hall. The more you listen to concert pianists the less you'll appreciate the clunkiness and insensitivty of Hall.


Well, I think he has a PhD in Bach, hasn't he?
I am a beginner and almost everything here goes straight over my head.
Originally Posted by dogperson
Most here would recommend that you not use BachScholar as a reference.

I could have posted my own video playing Invention #8, but I think it wouldn't have added an inch of wisdom to the debate.

I really enjoy and appreciate your inputs. They show you care about us, adult beginners.

Thank you all.

Here is Paul Barton playing #8. BachScholar’s playing is as dry and uninspiring as cardboard.




Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
PianogrlNW #2729374 04/16/18 12:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 255
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 255
Great performance!
Thank God I haven't posted my video laugh


Jaime CLP-645 😃
Re: Bach Invention 8 Non-Legato touch
dogperson #2729435 04/16/18 03:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,822
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,822
Originally Posted by dogperson
Most here would recommend that you not use BachScholar as a reference.

(Emphasis mine because I almost missed that and thought you were recommending BachScholar wink ).

Indeed. Actually, I would recommend not touching any of the "BachScholar" videos with a 10-foot pole. He plays like a robot, only slightly better than a MIDI recording, but thinks he's so great.


Moderated by  BB Player 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Virtual tour of the Atlantic City organ
by BDB - 07/12/20 04:38 PM
Purchased a Steingraeber 130 Upright
by Lucubrate - 07/12/20 04:04 PM
Baldwin 655 piano buying help 600$
by Ben Hefel - 07/12/20 03:15 PM
Beethoven sonata no.4 op.7
by dolce sfogato - 07/12/20 03:03 PM
WTC 1: Fugue No. 16 in G-minor
by Stephano - 07/12/20 01:46 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics200,223
Posts2,979,922
Members97,751
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4