Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Respect - and a couple of curiousity questions

I've been doing something that would probably make more than a few piano tuners cringe: I've been looking at websites and youtube video's on teaching piano tuning. (I'm the kind of guy who likes to have an understanding of what's under the hood so to speak. :-) )

Well, I can say I've walked away with a new found appreciation and respect for piano tuners!

I had no idea just how much skill would be involved to do a proficient job!

It seemed to simple to start with (hey - how hard can it be I've tuned a guitar before ).... but then I started to note the ever increasing complexities that's involved with learning this trade! The traps, the skill required to get it right, the amount that needs to be learned. Wow.

So I've so far watched enough videos to learn enough to keep my hands off our new piano and leave it to the professionals! (And to ensure that anyone we get in to tune is actually a true professional, and not an ad-hock hack).

Piano tuners would have to have one of the more misunderstood, and potentially under-appreciated skilled roles around.

Well, there's one less ignorant person in the world now when it comes to appreciating the skills involved!



However.... I was left with a couple of questions. (This will really show my lack of understanding to the inner workings of a piano I'm sure. )

I noticed that one string can be shared amongst two different notes as it comes up and back, as many notes have 3 strings, so one of the strings when returned is shared between two notes.

As such, does this mean that there are a number of notes that will share the exact same type of string? (ie, a Piano isn't like a guitar where each string has it's own density - but that one string can be shared across multiple notes just by changing the tension, or is it a change in the location of the fret ? )

Also - I was curious to know how this actually works without interrupting the 'other' note. ie: if there is a string shared between the C and D note, how does tuning the 'C' note not affect tuning the 'D' note at the same time? Wouldn't making an adjustment to the 'C' note end up changing the string tension (if not then, over a period of time) on the D note side as well as it's the same string? Or is this expected by the design engineers, and when both sides are tuned correctly, they should be displaying an equal amount of pressure on each side? Or is there something else I've completely missed that stops one side from affecting the other?

Not planning on doing any tuning... just curious and wanting to gain a greater appreciation for the design of these instruments.

Question 1: Yes, several notes use the same type of string. We have about 15 sizes to work from, and there are generally about 60 plain wire strings, so many notes use the same size.

Question 2: The friction of the string around the hitch pin, at the opposite end from the tuning pin, is so great that there is no movement around it.

On pianos the gage of strings changes at about every 5,6,7 or 8 notes. Different for all models.

When a string goes around the hitch pin and tension is added, it basically becomes 2 strings because of the tension. Kinda gets locked in place.

Thank you very much for your replies and answers to my question!

I did the same as I’ve done my own guitar setups for years. I can imagine the pros run into some DYI messes that they have to fix from folks that don’t stop at the videos. When I do get an acoustic I will surely get someone that’s qualified.

Adam,

Not all pianos have strings that loop. My Blüthner has a separate string for every pin.

I'm interested why you said "Piano tuners would have to have one of the more misunderstood......."? How misunderstood?

Ian (an amateur tuner, but not an "ad-hock hack")

Hi Ian,

Misunderstood in the way that people don't appreciate the skill that's actually involved in tuning a piano. Maybe "Misunderstood" may have been the wrong word to use. I know before I started looking, I thought it was just a matter of turning a few knobs, having the right tools, and making it sound right, and that was all there was to the job. You know "How hard can it be". :-)

By the way, your guitar does use the same diameter string for several notes.
That's what the frets are for, and that's why the piano has a curved bridge with "steps" for each note.

I think a more basic misunderstanding is it is not so much the skills (which can and must be learned) but the mindset (which has to be innate and then nurtured). If you can try to stack BB's in a vice and clamp them, and not get frustrated, you may have what it takes to tune pianos.

The difference between the guitar string and the piano wire is like the difference between a small, wood framed house and a 100 story steel and concrete skyscraper.

Each note has a different pitch but there cannot be 88 different wire sizes. So, the same wire is used for at least two but sometimes as many as 10 or more notes. The curved bridge and the configuration termination point at the other end of each wire make each length of wire for each note different from the next.

While most pianos do share the same wire with adjacent notes, some do tie off the third string and some tie off each string but those are rare designs. Notice that I am using the words, "string" and "wire" synonymously and interchangeably. The piano, however really does not have what we would think of as "strings" but steel wires. They are actually very thin, steel rods.

Once the tension on that steel rod is great enough, it begins to behave differently from the way it does when it is at rest or under very low tension. So, as to your question about whether pulling on one string would affect the pitch of its shared portion, it would when the tension is very low such as when installing a new string, repairing a broken one or pulling a string back up to pitch that had to be loosened for whatever reason.

Once both segments of the wire have sufficient tension upon them however. raising or lowering the tension of one in order to fine tune it will not affect the tension of its counterpart. This is because at the end of each string opposite the tuning pin, there are three bearing points, two on the bridge and one at the hitch pin. When the wire is up to pitch, there will be an average of 160 pounds of tension on it. The wire cannot "scoot" around the hitch pin at that high of tension the way it could if the tension were very low. There is simply too much friction. If you were to lower the pitch of one string by a severe amount however, such as a whole step or more, the other side of the two string arrangement would likely start to go flat as well.

Regarding "how much one half of a string is affected by tuning/detuning the other half", I once did a totally non-scientific experiment on a junk piano, and I seem to remember the effect was somewhere around a 1-to-10 ratio. That is, lowering one half by 10 semitones would lower the other half by about 1 semitone.
This being said, I'm not suggesting that this does or does not happen when doing fine adjustments in normal tuning.

LOL - of course, I didn't even think of that! Thanks...



Wow - is piano tuning actually that frustrating? Or is that just the initial 100 odd piano's during the initial learning phase?

It can be that frustrating if you let it be. That is my real point. You need to learn that the best you can do, is the best you can do. If your mindset is that a piano can be tuned perfectly and you are the one that should be able to do it, you will either give up in frustration or fool yourself into thinking what you did was perfect and not do nearly the job you actually could have. Same with adjusting the action and especially voicing. A while back a number of us posted our temperament to have them evaluated for beatrate progression. Only one was found to be correct. That was done by a designer of ETDs that apparently tweaked the program for that particular piano. True humility is what is needed.

As far as how many tunings it takes to be able to tune, I dunno. Some have a knack for it, some do not. Stability is far more important than non-tuners realize. That is where real skill, and again humility, is needed.

I like BDB's comment on how you only need to hear better than the person you tuned for - very true!

The caveat to that is that it means that you have to tune for the best ears that could ever possibly hear it, something I learned when I first tuned for the wife of one of my professors, and afterwards she told me that she was glad I could come, because her cousins were coming to play for the opening of Davies Hall.

Adam,

It is very much like learning a new language. At first you translate word for word. As your brain accumulates information certain things begin to become automatic (somewhat). Eventually you reach a point where you NEED to actually THINK in the new language, but you're not quite there yet (AKA "hitting the wall"). This is where frustration often sets in for new tuners. If they persevere and push through this period, things seem to suddenly somehow come together and the tuning process (or language) seems to flow. If one stops though at the "wall", failure occurs.

It definitely is not easy for most people to learn. Some though seem to have a knack for it.

Pwg

I second the respect factor.

If you can afford it, it is best to hire a professional tuner, if there is a good one in your area.

But for me, like you, I'm a curious type, and I like physics, science, math and mechanics, and learning how things work. Fact is, I've enjoyed learning to tune and service my pianos almost as much as I've enjoyed learning to play the piano. Tuning is a big challenge, and it is not for everyone. It takes patients, fortitude, determination, and, most of all, the ability to remain steadfast and not let the challenges get the best of you.

I have not kept a count, but I would estimate that I have done maybe 100 to150 complete tunings mostly my own pianos, but also a few pianos for others (for free). I've gotten the time it takes me to do a complete tuning down from about 8 hours to about 2 hours. I use Tune-Lab pro and my ear, which has worked well for me.

Anyway, like Peter Grey said, it is not easy to learn, even for fast learners. But the more you do it, the better/faster you get at it.

Now, if I could just play a piano...

Rick

Thanks all,

I've been finding this a very interesting thread!



By stability, do you mean the ability to tune the piano in a way where it remains tuned for a greater period of time? And if so - would you mind sharing in summary what actually makes a tune with more stability? Is it the way the hammer is used, or is it a technique of tuning slightly sharp so that it rests back in tune?




That's a very interesting perspective. As a software developer who's had to learn new languages I think I can relate a little. At first, everything is deliberate with translating the code. Then it becomes simply second language and you don't have to think - you can just do...






I guess I'm like you too Rick - I'm the curious type - which is why I've come to learn an appreciation for Piano tuning. I was the type of kid that used to pull his toys apart to learn to see how they worked. I don't think I've grown up yet. LOL

I like to have a bit of an understanding of what's happening - but unlike you (as you sound like you're relatively skilled) - I would consider myself in "enough knowledge to be dangerous" category - and I'm at least aware of this.

I know some of the basics of tuning, but not all the dangers that there are. I'd hate to do something to a tuning pin that causes it to not be as tight, or damage other parts of the piano I'm not even aware of yet. Maybe if I had someone who was skilled looking over my shoulder, and I was doing it on our old and cheap piano I'd give it a go - but after buying a grand piano - I'm pretty nervous about touching anything but the white keys in front of the fall board.

There are risks and hazards, and plenty of opportunities to slip up and do more harm than good. But the way I look at it, anything man made can be repaired or replaced (at a price, of course).

Fortunately, I've never broken a string while tuning (though I have while playing:-), or done more harm than good, or at least something that I couldn't fix.

You certainly have the right attitude, Adam. Most of the tuners and techs here are very courteous and helpful. I know some of them have helped me out a lot with valuable technical information, just for the asking. I still owe Peter Grey a few favors...

All the best,

Rick

Yes, so the piano stays in tune longer. But I am going to pass on technique. You can do a search and read gobs and gobs about it. Some might even be correct!