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Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: Kawai James] #2715819
02/20/18 12:53 AM
02/20/18 12:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,491
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content OP
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Kawai James  Online Content OP
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Hello folks,

Here is a video from a recent press event held in Tokyo to announce the CA58 (and MP11SE/MP7SE) for the domestic Japanese market.

This video features performances from pianist Ayano Entani. You may recognise Entani-san from her excellent demonstration of the NV10 at the Musikmesse preview last year, and the CS-X1 collaboration prototype the year before.

Unfortunately, the video producers didn't capture the CA58 using its Line Out connectors (nor the USB Audio recorder), so this performance is recorded using the camera's onboard microphone.


0:22 - Doctor Gradus ad Parnassum (Debussy)
3:05 - Impromptu No. 1 in A♭ major, Op. 29 (Chopin)

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
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Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: Kawai James] #2715831
02/20/18 02:14 AM
02/20/18 02:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 336
Just outside London UK
akc42 Offline
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

Unfortunately, the video producers didn't capture the CA58 using its Line Out connectors (nor the USB Audio recorder), so this performance is recorded using the camera's onboard microphone.


Actually I think its better this way. Its closer to what the piano will sound like when played in the home. I know the mic isn't of the highest quality, but lineout or usb bypassed the pianos speakers and that is an inherent part of the instrument.

Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: akc42] #2715838
02/20/18 02:56 AM
02/20/18 02:56 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,491
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content OP
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Kawai James  Online Content OP
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Originally Posted by akc42
Actually I think its better this way. Its closer to what the piano will sound like when played in the home. I know the mic isn't of the highest quality, but lineout or usb bypassed the pianos speakers and that is an inherent part of the instrument.


I appreciate your point, but I don't think I've ever heard a good recording of a digital piano from a microphone.

While Entani-san's performance is very good, the audio quality of this video is not a fair reflection of how the CA58 truly sounds through its speakers.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: akc42] #2715874
02/20/18 08:15 AM
02/20/18 08:15 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
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Granyala Offline
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Originally Posted by akc42
Actually I think its better this way. Its closer to what the piano will sound like when played in the home.

Ermm... not even close. If you seek to assess whether you like the sound, the quality of the mic is pretty much useless.

If you record a Bösendorfer with your smartphone it won't "sound closer to what it will sound like played in the home", it will sound like a broken toy, same here, despite her playing being beautiful.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
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Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: Kawai James] #2715889
02/20/18 10:12 AM
02/20/18 10:12 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,099
Europe
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JoeT Offline
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JoeT  Offline
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Europe
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by akc42
Actually I think its better this way. Its closer to what the piano will sound like when played in the home. I know the mic isn't of the highest quality, but lineout or usb bypassed the pianos speakers and that is an inherent part of the instrument.


I appreciate your point, but I don't think I've ever heard a good recording of a digital piano from a microphone.

While Entani-san's performance is very good, the audio quality of this video is not a fair reflection of how the CA58 truly sounds through its speakers.

Still using Line outs or USB is kind of cheating. wink It's only telling you how headphones sound like if you're using the same headphones for listening to the demonstration.

A proper multi-microphone setup done by an audio engineer inside a recording studio could give a good impression of how the speaker/soundboard systems of current digital pianos actually sound like. Especially the new ones with all the Onkyo shenanigans inside them.


Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: JoeT] #2715893
02/20/18 10:34 AM
02/20/18 10:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 89
Hungary
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alphonsus Offline
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Hungary
Originally Posted by JoeT

A proper multi-microphone setup done by an audio engineer inside a recording studio could give a good impression of how the speaker/soundboard systems of current digital pianos actually sound like.


Not really... 'cause how are you going to listen to that recording? Through your own speakers or headphones, the quality of which will hugely influence what you hear. The only way to test how a speaker will sound in real life is to hear it in person.


Adult beginner, playing since October 2016
Yamaha CLP-645 Soundcloud
Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: alphonsus] #2715900
02/20/18 11:33 AM
02/20/18 11:33 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,132
Pennsylvania
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dmd Offline
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Pennsylvania
Originally Posted by alphonsus
The only way to test how a speaker will sound in real life is to hear it in person.


And .... in my experience .....

The environment in which those speakers are being used can also have a significant impact on what you hear.

There is no end to those types of factors.

In the end .... you just do your best to judge quality .... purchase them .... and then .... who knows ....


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Casio PX-160, SennHeiser HD 555 Headphones, Apple iPad Mini, Spacestation v.3 Powered Stereo Monitor, Focal CMS 40 Monitors
Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: JoeT] #2715903
02/20/18 11:57 AM
02/20/18 11:57 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 364
Celestis
Granyala Offline
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Granyala  Offline
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Celestis
Originally Posted by JoeT
A proper multi-microphone setup done by an audio engineer inside a recording studio could give a good impression of how the speaker/soundboard systems of current digital pianos actually sound like. Especially the new ones with all the Onkyo shenanigans inside them.


Unless you are listening to the recording through the same speaker setup: no it won't. You playback audio equipment will color the tone and mess up any clever speaker placement on Kawais part etc.

There really is no substitute to listening yourself when it comes to speakers. Even then, the demo room will influence the test to a massive degree.

Think of it this way: would you buy a set of HiFi speakers for your stereo because a recording on YT sounds good through your headphones? Not if you are a sane person. Well, same goes for speaker systems of any digital piano.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: alphonsus] #2715914
02/20/18 12:23 PM
02/20/18 12:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,099
Europe
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JoeT Offline
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Europe
Originally Posted by alphonsus
Originally Posted by JoeT

A proper multi-microphone setup done by an audio engineer inside a recording studio could give a good impression of how the speaker/soundboard systems of current digital pianos actually sound like.


Not really... 'cause how are you going to listen to that recording? Through your own speakers or headphones, the quality of which will hugely influence what you hear. The only way to test how a speaker will sound in real life is to hear it in person.

In fact "hearing it in person" inside different noisy showrooms is not really a suitable method for finding the right sound. Controlled conditions are what work best for objective comparisons. It's a common fallacy that having some kind of measurement error makes even trying to measure something completely worthless. The way to do deal with this is to ensure that the unwanted effects stay the same throughout and therefore cancel themselves out.

Or in other word: As long as the recording and listening setup doesn't change, you can make useful assessments. An ES8 to a CS11 for example, which should sound exactly the same through their line-outs, should make a huge difference through their speakers when recorded properly with microphones inside the same recording studio.

That doesn't mean listening to one recording through your phone speaker and to the other through high-end headphones gives you any useful information. But nobody expects that.


Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: Kawai James] #2715931
02/20/18 02:57 PM
02/20/18 02:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,287
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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peterws  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,287
Northern England.
Aw, c'mon, guys!. There are two sets of speakers in a DP, left and right, right?
You have two ears, left and right.
This is a clue! You do not NEED sound surround; the technology exists to do this with those two speakers; you hear this often through headphones when watching a film on your computer. I believe a single amplifier speaker combination also exists to achieve similar.
But if you listen to the speakers at a distance, you will hear roughly what you hear from an acoustic; also at a distance.
So it stands to reason that the only true sound from a digital would be recording from under the lid where the sound is at its most organic. And the sound from the speakers of this recording would emanate through the back board of the piano, if it emulates an upright.
For the grand the speakers would be mounted on a soundboard pointing upwards. Or downwards.
Big Sigh . . . nobody ever listens to my words o' wisdom (shrug)


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: JoeT] #2715990
02/20/18 06:34 PM
02/20/18 06:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,491
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content OP
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kawai James  Online Content OP
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,491
Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted by JoeT
As long as the recording and listening setup doesn't change, you can make useful assessments. An ES8 to a CS11 for example, which should sound exactly the same through their line-outs, should make a huge difference through their speakers when recorded properly with microphones inside the same recording studio.


True, if the recording setup is kept perfectly constant, some degree of comparison between models should be possible.

However, even then, we can only compare how two or more pianos sound when recorded through a microphone - it still doesn't really provide an accurate representation of how either instrument will sound when played in person.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: peterws] #2716042
02/21/18 12:03 AM
02/21/18 12:03 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 364
Celestis
Granyala Offline
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Granyala  Offline
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Originally Posted by peterws
You do not NEED sound surround; the technology exists to do this with those two speakers; you hear this often through headphones when watching a film on your computer.

Meh. I have yet to find a virtual surround software that doesn't sound like a tin can.
I prefer plain old stereo, thanks.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: peterws] #2716044
02/21/18 12:16 AM
02/21/18 12:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,289
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Gombessa Offline
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Originally Posted by peterws
You do not NEED sound surround; the technology exists to do this with those two speakers


Actually, you DO need multi-point surround sound if you're not using closed back (or otherwise isolated) headphones. Binaural audio works by feeding each ear the audio it would hear with the exact timing and occlusions present in the real world. Speakers project that directly to the environment, exposing the directed stream to both ears and thereby destroying the effect.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: Kawai James] #2723567
03/22/18 03:49 PM
03/22/18 03:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
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jamess Offline
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I've tried the cn37 a number of times and then tried the ca48. Loved the wooden keyboard but not the control system. Thought the ca48 speakers sounded worse than the cn37, I guess the cn37 speakers pointing upwards at the back made the difference. Far brighter and less muffled . I'm keenly waiting to try the ca58. Apparently it's being released late march/early April in the Uk but another supplier said end April. Be great to see some more videos of it.

Last edited by jamess; 03/22/18 03:50 PM.
Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: Kawai James] #2725343
03/30/18 10:27 AM
03/30/18 10:27 AM
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jamess Offline
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Just seen that the ca58 price on bonners website is £2199. The cn37 is £1389. Appreciate that it's not been released yet but is the extra £800 worth it? Will the sound be much better or is it purely a wooden keyboard and more powerful speakers?

Last edited by jamess; 03/30/18 10:47 AM.
Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: Kawai James] #2725405
03/30/18 03:02 PM
03/30/18 03:02 PM
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PBL Offline
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It has better samples as well. But if you are shopping at Bonner’s also consider CA67. Better than ca58 in most aspects even though it is older.

Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: jamess] #2725426
03/30/18 03:51 PM
03/30/18 03:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,287
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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peterws  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2012
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Northern England.
Originally Posted by jamess
Just seen that the ca58 price on bonners website is £2199. The cn37 is £1389. Appreciate that it's not been released yet but is the extra £800 worth it? Will the sound be much better or is it purely a wooden keyboard and more powerful speakers?


The CA67 can be had for less than £1900.
Now, what will the VPC-2 sell for? If its a keyboard upgrade from it's predecessor only, it'll have to sell for considerably less than the CA 48. Any guesses?


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: Kawai James] #2725523
03/31/18 02:32 AM
03/31/18 02:32 AM
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Posts: 364
Celestis
Granyala Offline
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Celestis
Well, right now the CA48 costs 1.8K € and the VPC-1 costs 1.3K.
I think that is enough of a difference if an eventually released VPC-2 stays at 1.3K.

Last edited by Granyala; 03/31/18 02:32 AM.

The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: Kawai James] #2727398
04/08/18 04:39 AM
04/08/18 04:39 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 51
France
Miko Piano Offline
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France
Hi finally the price of ca 58 official !! What do you think of this price? I am expected compared to 37, am I right? thank you

https://www.thomann.de/fr/kawai_ca_58_b.htm?sid=3ee88b9bb512fdd76a2b1178728fbfda

Re: Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano [Re: Kawai James] #2727405
04/08/18 05:13 AM
04/08/18 05:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 336
Just outside London UK
akc42 Offline
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Just outside London UK
Key action is Grand Feel Compact as opposed to Grand Feel II for the CA67
Plus is a bluetooth interface which is not in the CA67.

Otherwise I think they are the same

For me, I think the CA58 is slightly less functionality than the CA67 and slightly more price - in effect a price rise in the range. But that is because I don't value the bluetooth connection very much and I do value the action

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