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Using Easy Piano Tuner #2727233
04/07/18 01:38 PM
04/07/18 01:38 PM
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That Guy Offline OP
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Easy Piano Tuner (EPT) is being discussed on another thread and I thought I'd start a thread specifically for it. PLEASE NOTE: I'm NOT selling this product and I get nothing out of telling you about it. That being said, I wanted to share my experience with it and this is assuming you have the full or Pro version of it.

I've been using EPT consistently for about three months now and have really been enjoying it. Enjoying may be an odd word to use but it really is just fun to use. It doesn't have all the "bells & whistles" that other higher priced ETA's have but then it's a ton less expensive. So, if you like to tweak things or use historical (or other) temperaments this isn't for you. It simply does a smooth ET tuning. What's fun about it is you just tune. Therefore, the time it takes me to tune a piano is probably about 15 minutes faster than it was with other ETA's.

This app is available on the Google Play Store, so because of that you can have it on any device you own that will run Google Play Store apps. I'm running it on 4 devices right now, one of them being my Chromebook. If you keep up on all things Google, you'll know that most Chromebooks will now run apps from the Play Store. This is good news because the rumor is that the Chromebook OS will someday be the OS for tablets, so EPT will seamlessly run on those. Also, there are regular updates with improvements all the time.

One of the advantages of EPT is being able to read all 88 notes very quickly. By doing this you can see exactly where the pianos tuning is currently at and spot the areas that you'll need to give the most attention to. You simply play each note (I mute off the two outside strings) and it records it, adjusts the tuning curve with the latest information and puts a blue dot where the pitch is currently at. A black line represents the tuning curve and you can see it adjust as you sample notes. There are two other screens to look at but so far I haven't really used those.

The app has three settings for moving note to note. AUTO, which will go to ANY note on the piano when you play it. STEP, which will stay very close to where you're at and not jump around and LOCK mode which you have to move manually note to note. I find myself mostly using the AUTO mode because you can check another octave and it follows you wherever you go, but the STEP and LOCK modes are handy for a noisy environment or the upper and lower regions where the notes aren't very clear sometimes.

There's a listening mode and lock mode for sampling notes. Once you've tuned the whole piano you can lock it and the next time you open up that file it will still be locked. Yes, you can save each tuning, in fact whether you save it or not it's automatically saved, so if something happens and, oops you forgot to save it, it will still be there. The date and time is recorded in the file.

It can be calibrated, the pitch changed and has a very handy (and accurate) Pitch raise or over-pull function. You record 3 notes in each octave before you start tuning.

It handles spinets very well, which is good news for me because I tune a lot of them.

There are four things to look at when tuning a note. 1. Phase display, which shows you the harmonics being measured. 2. Note display, which gives you a digital readout. 3. A needle readout. 4. The blue dot on the graph scale. All combined there's a lot of information that may take a while to get used to but I've found it all very helpful and accurate.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727242
04/07/18 02:20 PM
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Thanks for starting this thread.
I've been trying to download the professional version EPT
but have been having problems with PayPal, I'll work that out.
I will be using a Chromebook also.
I'm a TuneLab user from it's beginning and like the program.
Tried Entropy, it wasn't for me.
I'm looking forward to giving this one a try and hearing what others
have to say about it.

Gary


Working on being a retired piano tuner.
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727263
04/07/18 03:36 PM
04/07/18 03:36 PM
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Chicagoland
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Thanks for starting this here. I know there isn't user-control to the size and type of octaves tuned, but perhaps the designer can chime in here for what the stretch target is for varying areas of the piano? Is it a P12, or something different? It was mentioned that it uses the strength of partials of each note to alter the tuning...

Or is it "black box" - just gotta trust it?

Ron Koval

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727280
04/07/18 04:08 PM
04/07/18 04:08 PM
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I'm sure Anthony Willey (the developer) will chime in here, but when I asked him about the treble stretch his reply was "the treble octaves are weighted more heavily towards the 4:1 double octave and perfect 12th". He also mentioned that eventually he's planning on allowing users to customize the stretch.

I've been using EPT for a few weeks now and I think it's great value and a very welcome addition to the ETD app world that, in my opinion, has historically had extremely inflated pricing. Kudos to Anthony Willey for putting this together at such an affordable price.

EPT's ability to quickly (and correctly) jump to any note you play is a breath of fresh air after being stuck with only a minor third note-switching range in Tunelab. It seems to read inharmonicity rather accurately. Those two features combined have saved me some time on tunings compared to my usual Tunelab routine.

Sometimes it can feel a little tough to "lock" a note right in. The metering is not quite as smooth as other apps, but I believe that will improve as he continues to work on the app. In particular the coarse tuning needle is rather jumpy as well as the corresponding numerical value that shows the pitch to 1/10th of a cent can be somewhat erratic. The trick, I find, is just focus on the strobe metering.

I have upgraded to pro but have yet to try out a full pitch rise using pitch raise function. When I messed around with it briefly it took me a little while to figure out that I needed to give it a few sample notes BEFORE pressing the "begin pitch raise" button. Perhaps I was feeling a little foggy that day, but maybe it would be helpful to have a prompt indicating "play a few notes now" or something to that effect.

All in all, a great value and a very affordable and powerful new tool for piano techs.


Patience Piano Tuning
www.patiencepiano.com
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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Brock Tyler] #2727304
04/07/18 04:56 PM
04/07/18 04:56 PM
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That Guy Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Brock Tyler
Sometimes it can feel a little tough to "lock" a note right in. The metering is not quite as smooth as other apps, but I believe that will improve as he continues to work on the app. In particular the coarse tuning needle is rather jumpy as well as the corresponding numerical value that shows the pitch to 1/10th of a cent can be somewhat erratic. The trick, I find, is just focus on the strobe metering.


Yes, I've found that focusing on the strobe is the best thing to do, although I do use the needle too for a more course view of where I am.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Brock Tyler] #2727318
04/07/18 06:12 PM
04/07/18 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Brock Tyler
I have upgraded to pro but have yet to try out a full pitch rise using pitch raise function. When I messed around with it briefly it took me a little while to figure out that I needed to give it a few sample notes BEFORE pressing the "begin pitch raise" button. Perhaps I was feeling a little foggy that day, but maybe it would be helpful to have a prompt indicating "play a few notes now" or something to that effect.


One thing I've done when using the Pitch Raise mode is to make the first note I pick the longest plain string. If that's an F then maybe go F A C in each octave. My reasoning is that that note is the one that is usually out the most, therefore I make sure that specific note is measured.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727321
04/07/18 06:25 PM
04/07/18 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by That Guy
Originally Posted by Brock Tyler
I have upgraded to pro but have yet to try out a full pitch rise using pitch raise function. When I messed around with it briefly it took me a little while to figure out that I needed to give it a few sample notes BEFORE pressing the "begin pitch raise" button. Perhaps I was feeling a little foggy that day, but maybe it would be helpful to have a prompt indicating "play a few notes now" or something to that effect.


One thing I've done when using the Pitch Raise mode is to make the first note I pick the longest plain string. If that's an F then maybe go F A C in each octave. My reasoning is that that note is the one that is usually out the most, therefore I make sure that specific note is measured.


I do that as well but I will pick F A and C#. That splits the octaves evenly with 3 major thirds.


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727327
04/07/18 07:01 PM
04/07/18 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RonTuner
Thanks for starting this here. I know there isn't user-control to the size and type of octaves tuned, but perhaps the designer can chime in here for what the stretch target is for varying areas of the piano? Is it a P12, or something different? It was mentioned that it uses the strength of partials of each note to alter the tuning...

Or is it "black box" - just gotta trust it?

Ron Koval


I'd say it's more "opaque box". Basically it uses any available slow-beating intervals to calculate the tuning, and it tries to minimize the beat rate of each interval. Each interval is assigned a "weight" that influences how much its beating is taken into consideration in the overall minimization. So if a perfect 5th were assigned a weight of 4 and a perfect 4th were assigned a weight of 1, calculating the tuning based on that alone would result in 5ths having roughly 1/4 the beat rate of 4ths. Intervals included in the calculation include 12ths (3:1 and 6:2), octaves (2:1 through 10:5), fifths (3:2 and 6:4), fourths (4:3 and 8:6), double octaves (4:1 and 8:2), and triple octaves (8:1). The partial strengths help determine how heavily each of these intervals are used in the calculation in the different regions of the piano. So for example in the high treble where the top notes only have one harmonic, only the octaves, double octaves, triple octaves, and twelfths can be used. Down in the bass where the lowest harmonics are weak or absent, the higher partial intervals are used. 12ths are given the highest "weight" overall, followed by fifths and octaves. Unsurprisingly the tunings I have analyzed come out with fairly pure 12ths.

I do hope to introduce an option that allows users to modify these weights, thereby indirectly affecting the "stretch" in various areas of the piano, but I don't foresee a way to directly modify the stretch. Currently the only user "input" is the inharmonicity and partial strengths that are measured automatically as you tune. Does that answer your question somewhat?

Originally Posted by Brock Tyler

I have upgraded to pro but have yet to try out a full pitch rise using pitch raise function. When I messed around with it briefly it took me a little while to figure out that I needed to give it a few sample notes BEFORE pressing the "begin pitch raise" button.


Right, the pitch raise overpull is calculated from several notes that are sampled before you start tuning. Specifying beforehand which notes will be measured (eg. all the A's) allows you to measure even notes that are 100 cents flat (which would otherwise be detected as G#s with auto note switching).

Originally Posted by That Guy

Yes, I've found that focusing on the strobe is the best thing to do, although I do use the needle too for a more course view of where I am.


That's how I use it as well, except in the high treble where the strobe isn't very useful. Still working on improvements for the dial. The current "alpha testing" version has a slight but noticeable improvement that should be coming to beta and production very soon.

Anthony

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727331
04/07/18 07:30 PM
04/07/18 07:30 PM
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Thanks for the clarification Anthony!


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727332
04/07/18 07:36 PM
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Thanks Anthony - very helpful.

Easy is good, but good is better! I look forward to testing this, but my tuning phone is currently apple... How 'hungry' is this program?, Can I purchase an older Android phone or tablet and still expect it to work well, or should I look for any specific specs to make sure it works well? I do use a dedicated device, so using something other than my phone is fine.

Quality of tuning on all size pianos is #1 for me.
Pitch raise accuracy is second importance being in the midwest where seasonal swings are the norm!

Always appreciative of developers working on the piano tuning puzzle!

Ron Koval

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727338
04/07/18 07:54 PM
04/07/18 07:54 PM
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I bought a cheap 70$ android phone brand new and the app works fine on it. I don’t have it with me right now but I think it’s an alcatel.


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727362
04/07/18 10:41 PM
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Ok, I'll do some testing tomorrow at the U.

I can run it on my Chromebook for now and then purchase something smaller later...

Ron Koval

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727370
04/08/18 12:11 AM
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Ron, the oldest devices I've tested it on have been the Nexus 4 (2012) and Samsung Galaxy S4 (2013). I got the latter used on eBay for $50. It works fine on both, but it's "hungry" enough that you'll want to bring a charger if you're tuning multiple pianos. The current "beta testing" version of the app actually works better than the version that installs by default. (You get the beta version using an opt-in button on the Google Play Store page.)

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727430
04/08/18 09:55 AM
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I am pleased with the interface and the quality of the piano tuning.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: AWilley] #2727450
04/08/18 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by AWilley
Ron, the oldest devices I've tested it on have been the Nexus 4 (2012) and Samsung Galaxy S4 (2013). I got the latter used on eBay for $50. It works fine on both, but it's "hungry" enough that you'll want to bring a charger if you're tuning multiple pianos. The current "beta testing" version of the app actually works better than the version that installs by default. (You get the beta version using an opt-in button on the Google Play Store page.)


I have already bought the software, can I still get the beta version? I don't see any opt-in baton on the play store. Thanks


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727483
04/08/18 01:49 PM
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I couldn't find the beta opt-in using the chromebook with an already purchased pro upgrade...

Also couldn't get the file info to 'stick' when going back to the tuning screen - was trying to tune to A=438, but no go. All the other piano information would also revert to blank as well. Perhaps I missed something?

The design of the overpull shows real promise, but without controls to match tuning lever style, it left me more than 5 cents off after the first pass - the goal should be to allow for a single pass decent tuning when properly set up.

I was pleased with the tuning calculation. I didn't tune any really difficult scales, but the software ended up right where I expected based on the description above (made a Verituner style to check against - I got really close except the very top and bottom octave)- nice work!

The display left a little too much to the imagination - I could see the challenge of using multi-partial targets; many times the targets didn't agree, shown by the strobes not moving together and the needle not settling - are you boiling down the inharmonicity to a constant, or using the relationships between the partials as part of the calculation? (food for thought, not expected to reveal any secrets...)

Great start - the professional use will most likely be determined by updates to stabilize the display, as well as the already discussed difficulty with the top couple of notes.

The note finder seemed to follow me just fine - I did have to turn it to stepwise when I reached the high treble to keep in the right octave.

Ron Koval

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727502
04/08/18 04:03 PM
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The option to join the beta program should be near the bottom of the Play Store page. (I think the button says something along the lines of "I'm in".) You can join or leave the beta program at any time.

@Ron, thanks for the feedback! The issue with the pitch offset settings not being saved is a bug (fixed in the beta version). You can get around it by accessing the tuning file settings from the main menu (upper left corner) instead of the little text box in the upper right.

The inharmonicity is indeed boiled down to a constant, and that is what causes the occasional disagreement in targets for the different strobe rings, usually a problem around the break. I typically tune to where the middle ring(s) are stable, or to where the "average" is stopped, using similar mental gymnastics to when I tune mismatched bass strings. The jumpy needle is my #1 complaint, and while the beta version also has improvement on that front there's still a ways to go. The needle is supposed to do the averaging for you, but it unfortunately runs on different logic than the strobe rings.

On the overpull, what do you mean by "controls to match tuning lever style"?

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727507
04/08/18 04:27 PM
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Thank you Anthony, I just signed up for the beta.

Last edited by accordeur; 04/08/18 04:28 PM. Reason: spelling

Jean Poulin

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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727508
04/08/18 04:32 PM
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I'm liking the tunings I'm getting with EPT. I too have observed nearly pure 12ths that I proved aurally. Nice sound on piano!

Besides the points already made, the lower bass seems a little wide for my taste on small pianos. I've been measuring A's 1-6, same as I use with TuneLab. Any other recommendations?

Keep up the great work Anthony!

Brent Musgrave


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727519
04/08/18 05:20 PM
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Quote
The jumpy needle is my #1 complaint, and while the beta version also has improvement on that front there's still a ways to go.


I tend to be a 'slow pull' tuner, and trying to work with the needle seems to turn me into a "quick impact jerk" kind of tuner as I try to match the movement of the lever to the movements of the needle!

What notes do people like to sample initially for inharmonicity?

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: David Boyce] #2727524
04/08/18 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
What notes do people like to sample initially for inharmonicity?


Since it's so quick and easy to sample notes I usually just go for it and sample pretty much all 88, or most of them. There are two advantages to doing that. One is that you have plenty of samples for EPT to use and second is that you get a nice over-view of where the piano is at compared to the calculated curve.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2727536
04/08/18 06:40 PM
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Overpull -

Depending on how one uses the lever - slow pull, quick jerk, pointing left or right on an upright... less or more overpull is required to approach a one pass tuning. Also, as one tunes many of the same model, assumptions can be made to assist with overpull. A "plus or minus 1 or 2 or something" setting allows for a little less, or more overpull as needed - based on the experience from previous attempts.

Kindof a learning curve between tech and ETD to enhance the results.

I know the more controls included, the less "easy" the software becomes, but it is a real value to techs that want to dig a bit deeper!

Ron Koval

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: AWilley] #2729049
04/14/18 06:27 PM
04/14/18 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by AWilley

Intervals included in the calculation include 12ths (3:1 and 6:2), octaves (2:1 through 10:5), fifths (3:2 and 6:4), fourths (4:3 and 8:6), double octaves (4:1 and 8:2), and triple octaves (8:1). The partial strengths help determine how heavily each of these intervals are used in the calculation in the different regions of the piano. So for example in the high treble where the top notes only have one harmonic, only the octaves, double octaves, triple octaves, and twelfths can be used. Down in the bass where the lowest harmonics are weak or absent, the higher partial intervals are used. 12ths are given the highest "weight" overall, followed by fifths and octaves. Unsurprisingly the tunings I have analyzed come out with fairly pure 12ths.


Hi Anthony,

Thanks a lot for sharing.

Do 12ths come out on the narrow or wide side?

Together with 12ths, have you been able to analyze also double-octaves and the RBI's beat-rate progression?

Do you use Audacity for your analysis, or?

Kind regards,

Alfredo


alfredo
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2729088
04/15/18 01:32 AM
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@Ron, Thank you, I'll see what I can do.

@Alfredo,
During the earlier development of the app I spent a lot of time looking at graphs of calculated beat rates, but it's been a while since I've done that and the graphs I was looking at wouldn't be of much help. (They were pretty messy and you have to stare at it for a long time to understand what is going on.) A few months ago I was doing a small presentation for my local PTG chapter and I made a graph for that that I will try to post here with a couple disclaimers. To produce this graph I tuned a single piano (Yamaha U1) five times back to back, strip-muted for single strings only, and recorded each string immediately after tuning it so that its pitch wouldn't be affected by any change to neighboring strings. The first tuning was a quick first pass to get the piano close. For each of the next four tunings I used a different software package and tuned the piano as precisely as I could to what that software said was right (stopped strobe bars, spinners, full blush, etc.). Then I analyzed the recordings, running all four through the same script in Matlab to extract the frequencies of each harmonic. I used those frequencies to calculate the 12th beat rates. Those are what is plotted in the graph I'm linking here. (The y-axis is the beat rate in Hz. Positive means wide, negative means narrow.)

[Linked Image]

Now for the disclaimers:
1. For all of the software packages I'm not trying to make any statements as to the quality of their tunings. This is just one graph of one interval on one piano.
2. I used each program using the default out-of-box settings or recommended settings as much as possible. TL and RCT both got to listen to the recommended measured notes, while VT and EPT both got to listen to the quick first pass tuning and then were both locked. The one exception on the recommended settings was that I turned off Smart Tune on RCT because I was recording the strings immediately after tuning and before any "settling" happened.
3. For RCT and VT I was using older pocket-PC versions of the software on an HP IPAQ, so the results may not be the same for the newer iOS versions.
4. I did my best to be scientific through the whole process, trying to eliminate any systematic biases, but I don't claim to be perfect.

My observations from this graph was that for all the software packages the 12ths started out a bit wide in the bass (monochords), dropped to near-zero for most of the mid-section, and got a bit wild in the treble as the beat rates for everything go up exponentially up there. The graph would look a lot cleaner if it were plotting cents.

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Thanks!

I'm new to Android. Got an old phone from a family member to make it easier to test than my big Chromebook. Beta version ready to go.

Anthony, what is your preferred method for communication about EPT? Should I keep posting suggestions or observations here??

Ron Koval

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Hi Anthony,

Is there more to your presentation and could you please share it? My interest in EPT is growing and I want to learn more about it.. I'm getting some nice tunings and enjoying the using it.

Many thanks,
Brent


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Hi Ron,

Hoping you will continue to post here or on some public forum. Your posts are always enlightening.

Thanks,
Brent


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Ron, in the past I've taken questions and suggestions by email, but I'm happy to continue answering questions here or wherever.

Brent, here's the other main graphic from the presentation. It's a companion to the above and was produced with the same recordings and Matlab script. The extra disclaimer on this one is that in order to display complete Railsback curves it had to extrapolate some data for missing fundamentals in the low bass by using an inharmonicity constant calculated from higher harmonics.

[Linked Image]

This was the only side-by-side test of this sort that I've done, and I found it to be more useful as a sanity check than anything else. The rest of the presentation was basically showing people the functions, explaining some of the rationale and motivation, and performing a 15-minute muteless pitch raise on a piano that was "prepared" at 20 cents flat.

Last edited by AWilley; 04/15/18 05:15 PM. Reason: typo
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Can you explain your approach to a muteless pitch correction? It didn't seem like the "peaks" graph on EPT was precise enough for that! (I'd imagine you'd have to narrow the range down to a third or so, and have a target line linked to the overpull calculation?)

Or are you able to focus on the needle only and just work by ear for the 2nd and 3rd strings?

Interesting...

Ron Koval

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I’m also curious as to how you you do a muteless pitch raise. I have done it often with tunelab because you can see three separate peaks for each string. Thanks.


Jean Poulin

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It definitely involves some "reading between the lines" and a good deal of practice. It works best on pianos between about 15 to 40 cents flat, and doesn't really work well for the highest treble.

Basically how it works is you tune the first string while focusing only on the strobe wheels and ignoring everything else. The strobes tend to single out whichever string is closest to the target pitch, so when one string is in tune you will have one or more of the rings stop. It may be jerking around and flashing, but it will be stopped on average. The second and third strings are then tuned by ear. The hardest part of the whole process is tuning the second string. It's partly by feel (based on how far you turned the first pin) and partly by ear, listening to one pitch sliding into another with a fast but smooth pull. The third string is easy if you get the second. If you get lost and don't know which string is where anymore, either pull out a mute or move on and fix it later during a quick touch-up before the fine tuning. If you're interested in trying this out it's easiest on the bi-chords. I suspect most people will be happy to stick with their normal process and only attempt this on birdcages (which is where I first tried it).

I have received requests for a zoomable FFT spectrum from TuneLab users, and it's on my long-term list of things to do.

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What octave settings did you use for TuneLab when you compared the four programs? I'm wondering why TuneLab appears so wide in the treble compared to the others. I'm a longtime TuneLab user.


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Originally Posted by pianotek1963
What octave settings did you use for TuneLab when you compared the four programs? I'm wondering why TuneLab appears so wide in the treble compared to the others. I'm a longtime TuneLab user.

I didn't change the default, so I think 6:3 in the bass and 4:1 in the treble. I'm not sure why TL was sharper than the others up there. Perhaps it was the C5 measurement and the way it extrapolated inharmonicity for the Treble? I wouldn't read too much into it, as up there a difference of 5 cents isn't that big a deal, and without actually listening to the piano we can't objectively say which stretch is better anyway. On a different piano a different program may have the most stretch in the high treble.

Last edited by AWilley; 04/15/18 09:03 PM.
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So the fairly conservative stretch of 6:3 and 4:1 would explain why the 3:1 12th's appear wide, right?


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Tried a pitch raise with the beta version and the click boxes to continue didn't appear in landscape mode.

For some reason, I wasn't able to get the pitch raise function to work today - put it back in portrait mode to click continue, then played through the presample notes, but don't think I actually got to the place where the software finds out how far off each note starts.. When I tried to start, the dialog popped up that not enough information was available to start. Tried twice, then moved on.

Found the tuning graph screen helpful in pointing out which notes may have shifted while tuning the unison. Needle and spinner seemed better than older version, but at that point, I was just having EPT follow along while I used the Verituner. Very close agreement on this old Story & Clark spinet between the two, with the biggest difference having EPT want the bass lower than I prefer.

Ron Koval

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Ron,
Thanks for that feedback. I'll make sure this bug gets fixed in the next release. It sounds like there's an issue with screen resolution (thus the continue button not showing up in landscape) combined with Android's nasty habit of restarting/deleting everything every time you rotate the screen.

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Ah, didn't know about that Android thing!

Just came back from a Yamaha p22 tuning - overpull was flawless this time - as a matter of fact, the tuning came out really well - all the way to the bottom.

As I've spent more time with the spinner, there is a lag - similar to OnlyPure, but not that much. Probably tuning just past the attack rather than at the attack. Once I've gotten the hang of it, works so much better! Still tough on Bb7-C8 getting a solid read.

Nice work!

Ron Koval

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I haven't used the pitch raise function on a piano yet but I could see pitch raise function boxes when moving from portrait to landscape mode just now while experimenting.


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Here's a question:

In the tuning file section, there is a place to note the lowest plain-wire string - as well as choose the size and type of piano.

I assume the note choice has an effect on pitch raise, does the size and type of piano also have any effect on tuning calculation or pitch raise function? If so, there should probably be a warning dialog to encourage the user to fill in those choices before starting tuning.

Ron Koval

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The lowest unwound string does not affect the tuning calculation. It does have a very small effect on the pitch raise, slightly lowering the overpull percentage for the wound strings. I'm currently working on a better model for the overpull percentage, and when that comes out then it will actually ask you for the lowest unwound string at the beginning of the pitch raise setup.

The "piano type" is only for file management purposes, to give you a pretty picture to remember what type of piano you are opening.

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Following up on the overpull percentage conversation, I spent some time over the past couple of weeks collecting and analyzing a bunch of overpull data on several different pianos in an effort to develop a slightly more sophisticated model for overpull. The method currently in the app basically uses a linearly increasing overpull where the percent overpull is adjusted slightly based on the scale of the piano (estimated from inharmonicity) and attenuated at the ends of the piano. What I've found recently is that the overpull profile seems to be quite different for grands vs uprights.

Here, for example, is the profile for a grand piano:
[Linked Image]
It fits the old linear model fairly well.

Here now is some data I took on a studio upright piano:
[Linked Image]
There is a dip in the overpull through the midsection and then a large jump as you cross the strut into the treble. The overpull percentage still varies with the scale of the piano. Note that the actual overpull percentages are different than you're probably used to seeing (eg. 50% in the treble). That is because we are pre-measuring all the sample notes before beginning the pitch raise, instead of measuring them as you go.

Anyway I wanted to ask if this difference between grands and uprights is consistent with others' observations. I'm hoping to get something in place in the next several weeks. I still need to tweak the model, write the code, get it into the app, and test it.

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Yes, that is similar to what I see when approaching uprights above the strut - different models seem to be a bit random approaching the strut, some need a bit more, some need a slight taper. But excepting Steinway uprights, almost everything I've tuned needs a bigger boost in percentage overpull going above the strut.

For my lever technique, most pianos get a 17% in the middle(some 23%). I don't often see the sag that you noticed, but I'm calculating percentages as I tune, so results will differ...

Above the strut jumps to 28% for most, though some stay at 23% for a few notes - jumping up to 33% and some even 38% in that crazy section, then tapering back down.

Ron Koval

I have been 'mirroring' all of my tunings with EPT (just let it run as I tune) - it has been really interesting to watch the inharmonicity graph. Not sure how to post pictures, I'm sure other techs would like to the those graphs for different common models of pianos! It sure gives a nice visualization of why some models are a little more difficult to tune than others...

Ron Koval

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Re. the sag in the midsection: I think it could be modeled just as easily by a straight level line through the midsection with a jump at the treble break, but with a few notes around the tenor break that need a little more overpull. In many of my samples it seems to be the notes closest to the tenor break that need the extra boost in overpull. I suspect this has something to do with the lower tension, foreshortened strings at the bottom of the tenor (the ones that also move most with humidity) and possibly edge effects of being on the end of the bridge. Another possibility is that in addition to precalculating the overpull, I am tuning in a different order than I think other piano tuning apps recommend. I start at the bottom of the tenor and tune to the top, and then tune the bass section last from the break downward. (I remember at least one app saying to start at note #1 and tune upward, but that has never sat quite right with me, especially if you're measuring inharmonicity as you go.)

On the inharmonicity graph, I do the same thing, and it's made me think about pianos differently, especially the spinets with unwound bichords. Actually, when collecting recordings for these pitch raise calculations, I forgot on some of the pianos to make a note of where the lowest unwound string was. I was able to reconstruct that by quickly running the notes around the break through EPT and looking for the jump in inharmonicity.

I'm not sure of the best way to do images here, but I upload mine to https://i.imgur.com and then paste the "direct link" here between "img" tags like this:
Code
 [img] https://i.imgur.com/VOvLQ06.png [/img] 

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2745099
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Originally Posted by That Guy
Easy Piano Tuner There are two other screens to look at but so far I haven't really used those.


Could the developer or anyone familiar with EPT elaborate on the two other screens ? How to analyze the two other screens ?

Thank you.

FY

PS. I read the very short explanation at the support site, but it doesn't say how to analyse the information.

Last edited by Fazioli-Yang; 06/17/18 12:40 PM.
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I really like the information found on the inharmonicity screen. It gives you a look of each string's partial ladder boiled down to an inharmonicity constant. The graph shows an idealized curve and the measurements are plotted over the top. It lets you see the stringing breaks, but more importantly to high-level ETD users, It gives some control over the quality of the data used for the calculation. If you happen to see a string, or many strings "out of place", you can go back and keep sampling that note until you get consistent results.

I would think to achieve a higher-level tuning with this software, it would be best to review, remeasure and then lock the tuning calculation once everything has been measured.

Ron Koval

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I have never used the overpull function on TuneLab or Simple Piano Tuner. Since each of the duple and triple choir strings have different non speaking lengths, how can a single overpull percentage calculation for a note be accurate?

Ian


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Is there a way to view the numeric data...inharmonicity constant, tuning curve offsets, partial used?


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Originally Posted by pianotek1963
Is there a way to view the numeric data...inharmonicity constant, tuning curve offsets, partial used?


Yes, kind of. You can extract data for the measured inharmonicity, and tuning curve offsets, but it's not terribly straightforward, as that's not really the point of the app. I've written down some instructions here: http://my.ptg.org/communities/commu...r#bmf3db84ea-ee53-417a-8855-846b8e6f0d91 (gasp what a URL)

If the link doesn't take you directly to the post scroll down to post #10.

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Originally Posted by Beemer
I have never used the overpull function on TuneLab or Simple Piano Tuner. Since each of the duple and triple choir strings have different non speaking lengths, how can a single overpull percentage calculation for a note be accurate?

Ian

Oops! Sorry I meant to write Easy Piano Tuner.

Ian


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Originally Posted by Beemer
I have never used the overpull function on TuneLab or Simple Piano Tuner. Since each of the duple and triple choir strings have different non speaking lengths, how can a single overpull percentage calculation for a note be accurate?


It's not. The overpull calculation is a big estimation intended to get you "close enough" for a quick first-pass tuning. That said, effects due to the difference in non-speaking lengths are going to be small compared to the other factors that make overpull necessary. (This isn't based on any actual data, just my own observation.)

A fun exercise might be to try to predict whether you'd need more or less overpull for a string with a longer non-speaking length compared to its (shorter) neighbors. I would predict less.

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Originally Posted by Fazioli-Yang
Originally Posted by That Guy
Easy Piano Tuner There are two other screens to look at but so far I haven't really used those.


Could the developer or anyone familiar with EPT elaborate on the two other screens ? How to analyze the two other screens ?


The main purpose of all 3 screens is to be a sanity check for tuners.

The tuning curve screen shows you what the calculated stretched tuning looks like compared to (flat) equal temperament, and gives you a rough picture of how your tuning lines up to the targets. It's not accurate or fast enough to actually use as a tuning aid, it just gives you a quick birds-eye view.

The inharmonicity screen gives you a view of the measured data that is used to calculate the tuning. It basically makes the program less of a black box. Ron's advice for using that is excellent. Ignoring it completely won't give you a bad tuning, but checking it to fix outliers and missing data points can give you a slightly better tuning.

The frequency spectrum screen isn't helpful for tuning at all but it can give you some insight into other things. I use it occasionally to confirm things I notice first with my ears, like an annoyingly strong nth harmonic. I've also found it's useful for explaining the harmonic series to clients.

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Originally Posted by AWilley
Originally Posted by Beemer
I have never used the overpull function on TuneLab or Simple Piano Tuner. Since each of the duple and triple choir strings have different non speaking lengths, how can a single overpull percentage calculation for a note be accurate?


It's not. The overpull calculation is a big estimation intended to get you "close enough" for a quick first-pass tuning. That said, effects due to the difference in non-speaking lengths are going to be small compared to the other factors that make overpull necessary. (This isn't based on any actual data, just my own observation.)

A fun exercise might be to try to predict whether you'd need more or less overpull for a string with a longer non-speaking length compared to its (shorter) neighbors. I would predict less.



Anthony,
During my normal (not overpull) tuning using Easy Piano Tuner, I am very aware that in using my carbon fibre lever I notice tension differences between each of the three choir strings. Also the range of NSL tension that remains stable is different for each choir string. The shortest NSL has the least range and requires the most careful setting. This is why I suspected that a One-For-All over-pull function would not be so accurate. Perhaps I misunderstood the tuners here who seemed to use the over-pull function for a single pass tuning.
Ian


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During my normal (not overpull) tuning using Easy Piano Tuner, I am very aware that in using my carbon fibre lever I notice tension differences between each of the three choir strings. Also the range of NSL tension that remains stable is different for each choir string. The shortest NSL has the least range and requires the most careful setting. This is why I suspected that a One-For-All over-pull function would not be so accurate. Perhaps I misunderstood the tuners here who seemed to use the over-pull function for a single pass tuning.


We may be using different terminology. All 3 strings of a unison should have exactly the same "tension" when they are in tune, regardless of the non-speaking length, assuming the speaking length is the same across the unison (it should be in a good piano). That said, there would definitely be irregularities in friction and tuning pin tightness that would cause the force you feel in the lever to be different for strings in the unison. I suspect that's not what you're talking about though. What you are describing I think is the difference in "sensitivity" between the different strings of the unison: if you turn two pins exactly the same amount you will get a larger pitch change from the string with the shorter non-speaking length. Or put another way, you have to turn the pin more for longer strings than you do for shorter strings, even though the speaking length is the same. This is because raising the pitch stretches the steel itself and in longer strings there's more steel to stretch, so you have to tune the pin further to get an equivalent change in tension to you would you'd get in a short string.

I don't doubt that some tuners in some situations use just one pass and fine tune to the pitch raise targets. I've also heard that cybertuner has a fine tuning mode that adds just a fraction of the normal pitch raise overpull, so I imagine some tuners use that for one-pass tunings. I personally prefer doing a two-pass tuning. Even if the piano is close enough to skip the pitch raise altogether I still start with a quick (<5min) pass to touch up any outliers.

I don't know of any tuning program that compensates for differences in non-speaking length.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2754891
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I continue my journey with Easy Tuner. It's comfortable! This is high quality! But I sometimes find tools that seem strange. And these strangenesses are visible in the behavior of the phase display. The bands of overtones are moving in different directions:



About this speech came a little higher in the forum. But I still do not understand this behavior. Also, in the range where such strings are present, there are inaccuracies in tuning. If you move parallel intervals in this range - the intervals change regularly and sequentially, but the harmonic chords in some keys may sound false.

 It turns out that when measuring the non-harmonicity, the note is recorded by some idealized values ​​of the overtone frequency. At the same time, there is an obvious slight discrepancy with the actual frequency of some overtones. When calculating the setting and during the configuration, is this idealized value used? Then it leads to inaccuracies, mistakes and oddities. I was impressed by the Entropy Tuner that that tuner measured the actual frequencies. And it was the actual frequencies used for the calculations.
 This reminds me of a situation where you have some imaginary space, for example 5 meters wide, which you need to cover with boards 1 meter wide. The boards come, but the width of some is 0.95 meters, 0.93 meters, 1.02 meters, etc. for example. (hehe in Russia is so often)). It is clear that nothing worthwhile will come of this - there will be gaps and discrepancies. The rhythm will be disturbed. But in this case, we should start from these unevennesses, and not from idealized meanings. - An example came to my mind))
 I think that Easy Tuner should be aware of these irregularities. Should keep the corrections for uneven overtones and take these values ​​when calculating the beats in the intervals. (and at the same time to stop the divergence of the lines in different directions in the measuring mode).
 Although, on the other hand, we can detect "strange" strings and thus have the opportunity to find alternative solutions for specific strings.
 Also there is a suggestion to make a demonstration of the overtone volume in the phase display using the thickness of the lines (or brightness) (changing the width of the lines depending on the height is good!)
And another question - how does the tuner react to the presence of longitudinal modes? Some strings can have quite bright and fake frequencies of internal beating strings. Do the longitudinal modes lead to an inaccurate calculation of the nonharmonicity of the string?

Last edited by Scherbakov Alex; 07/31/18 08:40 AM.
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2755047
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EPT looks like another interesting program.

How many notes does EPT measure, to generate a tuning curve? Is it like the Cs and Fs in six octaves, like in Tunelab? Or is it every single note, like
in Dirk's or Entropy? Can the number of measured notes be modified by the user?

Is there a split-scale mode in EPT, for spinets, like Tunelab has?

Sorry if these questions were answered earlier..... grin


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2755133
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Does anyone sometimes see the needle flicker uncontrollably and widely when it is listening but there is no note being struck?

I cannot figure out why it does this on my Android LG G4 phone. No other apps are running.

Ian


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2755153
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I doubt if any of the longitudinal wave energy in most piano strings is going to show up in the display. Maybe in the first 10-15 notes you may "find" it somewhere up in the range of the 20th partial.


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Beemer] #2755171
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Originally Posted by Beemer
Does anyone sometimes see the needle flicker uncontrollably and widely when it is listening but there is no note being struck?

I cannot figure out why it does this on my Android LG G4 phone. No other apps are running.

Ian
Your phone (likely) uses an automatic gain control (AGC) on the microphone preamp. Just about every modern audio recording device has this dubious ‘feature’. It adjusts the amplifier’s gain higher for weak signals and lower on strong signals to prevent distortion. The rate at which the gain changes is usually very slow (more than two seconds). In your case, if no note is being tuned, the AGC goes to maximum sensitivity, so it is picking up any noise in the room as well as audio frequency EMR, possibly not detectable by you, but is detected by the mic. This is normal.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Scherbakov Alex] #2755264
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Originally Posted by Scherbakov Alex

 It turns out that when measuring the non-harmonicity, the note is recorded by some idealized values ​​of the overtone frequency. At the same time, there is an obvious slight discrepancy with the actual frequency of some overtones. When calculating the setting and during the configuration, is this idealized value used? Then it leads to inaccuracies, mistakes and oddities. I was impressed by the Entropy Tuner that that tuner measured the actual frequencies. And it was the actual frequencies used for the calculations.
...
 I think that Easy Tuner should be aware of these irregularities. Should keep the corrections for uneven overtones and take these values ​​when calculating the beats in the intervals. (and at the same time to stop the divergence of the lines in different directions in the measuring mode).
 Although, on the other hand, we can detect "strange" strings and thus have the opportunity to find alternative solutions for specific strings.
 Also there is a suggestion to make a demonstration of the overtone volume in the phase display using the thickness of the lines (or brightness) (changing the width of the lines depending on the height is good!)
And another question - how does the tuner react to the presence of longitudinal modes? Some strings can have quite bright and fake frequencies of internal beating strings. Do the longitudinal modes lead to an inaccurate calculation of the nonharmonicity of the string?


Alex,
Thank you for the perceptive feedback.

You are correct about the phase display bands moving in different directions. It usually happens in the tenor section near the "break" and it is caused by a small discrepancy between the inharmonicity EPT is using for the note and the actual inharmonicity of the string. EPT, as you know, calculates inharmonicity for each individual string, and also calculates a best fit curve to model the inharmonicity of the entire piano which can be used to estimate the inharmonicity of strings that haven't been measured yet. The inharmonicity values are continually refined as you take longer measurements, and the changes to the inharmonicity values become progressively smaller the longer you measure. However EPT still doesn't directly use these raw inharmonicity values to calculate the tuning. It uses a weighted average of those and the calculated best-fit curve. I realize that probably sounds like a bad idea, to use averaged values instead of actual values, but it actually helps to prevent disruption to the tuning curve from bad inharmonicity measurements. Also, the actual inharmonicity values are given more "weight" in the average with the best-fit curve the longer they have been measured. So for a note that you have measured for only 1 second, the inharmonicity value used will be mostly determined by the best-fit curve; but for a note that has been measured 20 seconds, the inharmonicity used will be much closer to the real inharmonicity. One thing I could do to give you more control over this would be to add an option to adjust the "weight" given to the average best-fit tuning curve. That way you could choose to have it use the actual inharmonicity values exclusively after they have been measured.

The other issue with the strobes going in different directions is that the actual spacing between frequencies is uneven and doesn't perfectly fit the mathematical inharmonicity model. Early in the development I tried adding a correction factor for this, but it ended up creating more problems than it solved, letting noise corrupt the data and making messy and jagged tuning curves that sounded bad in some areas.

As things currently stand the best thing to do when you have strobe rings moving in different directions is to tune so that the middle strobes are stationary and the outermost and innermost rings move in opposite directions.

Your suggestion to change the brightness of the strobe rings based on the loudness of the harmonic is something that I definitely plan on doing in the future. (I don't have an ETA on it unfortunately, but it's on my list of things to do.)

Re: longitudinal modes, I have logic that should mostly eliminate interference from longitudinal modes. If we detect two frequencies sufficiently close together (like a real harmonic and a longitudinal mode) we throw both of them away and don't use either of them for the inharmonicity calculation.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Musicdude] #2755266
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Originally Posted by Musicdude

How many notes does EPT measure, to generate a tuning curve?

As many as you want. At least 3.

Originally Posted by Musicdude

Is it like the Cs and Fs in six octaves, like in Tunelab? Or is it every single note, like
in Dirk's or Entropy? Can the number of measured notes be modified by the user?

I will usually begin my tuning by taking some quick samples like in TuneLab. I usually use a few octaves of A's and D#'s, though C's and F's work as well. Some users will "lock" the inharmonicity (using the "ear" button on the right) after taking these measurements and tune the piano, making it function very similarly to TuneLab. Others (including me) leave the inharmonicity measurements unlocked for the entire tuning, meaning that the program will constantly be measuring inharmonicity and slightly updating the tuning curve as you go. If you are tuning the piano in two passes (pitch raise, tuning) this isn't a problem as any later changes to the tuning curve will be very small. I basically tune all my pianos in two passes: even if a pitch raise isn't necessary I still run through all the notes to touch up any outliers before doing the actual tuning.

Originally Posted by Musicdude

Is there a split-scale mode in EPT, for spinets, like Tunelab has?

Hmm. I'm not sure what that is. I don't think so.

Last edited by AWilley; 08/01/18 08:26 PM. Reason: fix
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: AWilley] #2755286
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Originally Posted by AWilley
Originally Posted by Musicdude

How many notes does EPT measure, to generate a tuning curve?

As many as you want. At least 3.

Originally Posted by Musicdude

Is it like the Cs and Fs in six octaves, like in Tunelab? Or is it every single note, like
in Dirk's or Entropy? Can the number of measured notes be modified by the user?

I will usually begin my tuning by taking some quick samples like in TuneLab. I usually use a few octaves of A's and D#'s, though C's and F's work as well. Some users will "lock" the inharmonicity (using the "ear" button on the right) after taking these measurements and tune the piano, making it function very similarly to TuneLab. Others (including me) leave the inharmonicity measurements unlocked for the entire tuning, meaning that the program will constantly be measuring inharmonicity and slightly updating the tuning curve as you go. If you are tuning the piano in two passes (pitch raise, tuning) this isn't a problem as any later changes to the tuning curve will be very small. I basically tune all my pianos in two passes: even if a pitch raise isn't necessary I still run through all the notes to touch up any outliers before doing the actual tuning.

Originally Posted by Musicdude

Is there a split-scale mode in EPT, for spinets, like Tunelab has?

Hmm. I'm not sure what that is. I don't think so.


Ok, updating the inharmonicity as you go sounds like a good idea. But if you are encouraging people to always make two passes, then there really isn't any
time advantage over measuring all the notes at first, like they do with Dirk's or Entropy. If you are only tuning your own pianos, or you have solid repeat
customers, then measuring all the notes on a piano only has to be done once. But if you have lots of new customers, only C's and F's in Tunelab will obviously
be faster, but perhaps not as accurate.

Look here for the split-scale explanation:

http://tunelab-world.com/TuneLab%20Piano%20Tuner%20manual.pdf

The last two pages, Chapter 10.


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2755287
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Split-scale is probably a good idea when there just isn't enough data collected from the piano... It is a way to give the software some information about where the break occurs! If the software collects the info, there isn't any need to tell it where the breaks occur.

Ron Koval

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2755322
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Thanks for the answer!
The logic of the decision regarding the longitudinal regime is clear and I agree with it.
I'm glad that the brightness-volume dependence will be in the future)
Strings with overtones that do not match the mathematical model apparently require a special and creative solution. The last tool that I was caught with "weirdness" was set up with inaccuracies. Here's the file:

File Easy Tuner

The A-dur sounded dirty, the simultaneous queries H1-F#2-H2-F#3 - very floating. Although the chromatic sequences of the intervals were fairly uniform (if memory serves me right). What could you advise in this case? To focus on stopping the 2nd and 3rd overtone on the phase display?
Perhaps specifying the volume with the help of brightness will make a more accurate selection of the ring for stopping.

Last edited by Scherbakov Alex; 08/02/18 05:56 AM.
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Scherbakov Alex] #2755339
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@Alex, the Dropbox link in your post above isn't working for me. It just loads a blank page and there's no download.

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Originally Posted by AWilley
@Alex, the Dropbox link in your post above isn't working for me. It just loads a blank page and there's no download.


I'll just try to insert the link text ..

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gqida53um5hzp83/2018-07-15%201436%20%D0%97%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%20%D0%BA%D1%80%20%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%8F%D0%B1%D1%80%D1%8C.etf?dl=0

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2755370
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Alex,
There's not a lot that I can tell you about tuning the different harmonics from that tuning file alone. I was able to extract the inharmonicity and tuning curve data, which I'll plot here:

[Linked Image]

Looking at the inharmonicity there is a lot of unevenness from the notes 21 to 34 (F2 to F#3) making that region hardest to tune. The piano reminds me of poorly scaled spinet/console pianos that have unwound bichords in the tenor section. If I had to guess I would say that the notes 32-34 (E3-F#3) were unwound bi-chords, and that notes 27-31 (B2-D#3) (or H2-D#3) are wound bi-chords above the break. I could be completely wrong of course. The inharmonicity of note 24 (G#2) looks to me like there's a small measurement error, but I can't say for sure.

When you're dealing with rings spinning in different directions another approach is to look at the needle. The movement is a bit jumpy and the response is too slow to use in normal tuning, but it can give you an idea of if you're sharp or flat (and by extension which harmonics would be more helpful to follow). Unlike the spinning phase rings the needle takes into account the loundness of the harmonics it's listening to, giving the louder ones more weight.


Last edited by AWilley; 08/02/18 11:31 AM.
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2755401
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Interesting! This tool, the file I sent, maybe in the past, had a change of strings. In any case, one wound string was wound with a winding in an agrarian. I was surprised. Some of the paired knitted strings differed rather strongly in the inharmonious. Yes .. such a tool ..
Thank you!

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2755495
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Would looking at the spectrum analyzer provide some help in choosing which strobe ring to favor?

Also I tend to find from my experience that the third or fourth partials (rings) usually gives the best aural match in the low tenor where I find strobe rings appear to conflict on pianos with scaling challenges.

Sometimes you just have to accept the limitations of the piano, make it the best you can and move on realizing you have made the piano sound as good as possible. I've never had an unhappy customer in taking that approach.


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Musicdude] #2755751
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Originally Posted by Musicdude

How many notes does EPT measure, to generate a tuning curve? Is it like the Cs and Fs in six octaves, like in Tunelab? Or is it every single note, like
in Dirk's or Entropy? Can the number of measured notes be modified by the user?

Is there a split-scale mode in EPT, for spinets, like Tunelab has?

Sorry if these questions were answered earlier..... grin


I usually just measure EVERY note. Why not? It's so easy to do that you might as well get as much information as you can up front. I also let the app "listen" through the whole tuning and only lock it when I'm finished.

EPT does not have a split-scale mode like TuneLab but it doesn't need it. Split-scale is TuneLabs way of compensating for the crazy inharmonicity on spinets in the break area. EPT copes with spinets very well and doesn't need split-scale mode.


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Musicdude] #2755948
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Originally Posted by Musicdude

But if you are encouraging people to always make two passes, then there really isn't any
time advantage over measuring all the notes at first, like they do with Dirk's or Entropy.

I haven't tried Dirk's but my last attempt with Entropy took me about 10 minutes to sample all the notes. Easy usually takes me about 2 minutes, since I don't have to play the notes as long and because it's not a big deal if I don't get a perfect reading here and there. You also don't have to do the top couple of octaves (where inharmonicity isn't measured anyway), but I usually do because I'm touching up outliers as I go. That's only if I'm not doing a pitch raise, which I do for 90% of first-time customers. Anyway I'm not trying to sell you on my software here...I figure people will ultimately use whatever best suits their tuning style, and everybody has a different approach there.

Thanks for the link for split scale. I definitely don't have it in that form (where you enter in the break point). If I notice or suspect a large jump in inharmonicity at the break (read spinets, baby grands, unwound bi-chords...) I just make sure to get good samples of the first few notes on either side of the break.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Musicdude] #2756009
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Quote
Ok, updating the inharmonicity as you go sounds like a good idea. But if you are encouraging people to always make two passes, then there really isn't any
time advantage over measuring all the notes at first, like they do with Dirk's or Entropy. If you are only tuning your own pianos, or you have solid repeat
customers, then measuring all the notes on a piano only has to be done once. But if you have lots of new customers, only C's and F's in Tunelab will obviously
be faster, but perhaps not as accurate.


Having used TuneLab for many years I can tell you that EPT is much faster to use. Here's the deal...With TuneLab you play a note and it processes it, then gives you a page to see what you measured, then you accept those measurements. Probably 2 or 3 steps you go through for each note. (I haven't used TuneLab in quite a while so I'm just going by memory here) But with EPT you simply play the note and it measures it almost instantly. Therefore you can go through the whole piano in about 60 seconds and you have a "map" in front of you clearly showing where the piano is at and where you need to go. With EPT I probably shaved off at least 15 minutes from my tuning time.

I haven't found it necessary to make a second pass with EPT. Having measured the whole piano to begin with, it's accurate.


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2756095
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Just to clarify, there are two kinds of "measurements" in TuneLab. One is the inharmonicity measurement that is normally done for only 5 or 6 notes when making a new tuning. The other is the "pre-measurements" that are done only for pitch-raises. These pre-measurements are done for many more notes, but only take 1 second per note and are only needed for pitch-raises. We do not recommend measuring "every note" for inharmonicity because inharmonicity follows a pattern that is fairly well-defined by knowing only 5 or 6 notes.


Robert Scott
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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Robert Scott] #2756111
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I have been using TuneLab for years, and just as Robert has described for both the 6 notes measured for a new tuning, and the methodology for pitch raises. The measurements for pitch raises takes me maybe 2 minutes or so, the measures for a new tuning maybe a minute. I don't begrudge the two minutes or so for pitchraises; it is so much more accurate than my long used aural methods.

I have not used EPT, but I find TuneLab more than satisfactory.

Will Truitt


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2756159
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Yes, I think the way I worded it made it sound like TuneLab was inferior to EPT and I didn't mean it that way. But, I have found EPT to be much faster in taking initial inharmonicity readings. I simply choose to play most every note not because EPT needs it but that way I have a visual map of where the piano is at and where it needs to go. On the main page at the bottom there's a screen that shows the calculated tuning curve with blue dots showing where the pitch of each note is at and of course as you begin tuning the dots align closer to the tuning curve.

TuneLab is wonderful software and certainly, if it's working well for you, there's no need to change.


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There's an update available for the beta EPT users. One of the updates involves weighted measurements for the inharmonicity readings. I'm hoping Anthony can expound a bit more about it on this forum.


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2763293
09/04/18 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by That Guy
There's an update available for the beta EPT users. One of the updates involves weighted measurements for the inharmonicity readings. I'm hoping Anthony can expound a bit more about it on this forum.

Scott,

I too am a beta user and have updated but where do I find the change you mentioned? Also have you been able to open the beta app in an additional Android device. I have it working on my phone but on also installing it on my Android tablet, despite Platstore saying "you are a beta user' the app on my tablet is not a beta version.

Ian


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2763403
09/04/18 03:38 PM
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I think I need to write up an explanation to put on my website for the inharmonicity weight function. It's actually not as big a deal as it sounds. It was meant to address an issue that Scherbakov Alex brought up here last month...that the inharmonicity model used in calculating the tuning is sometimes far enough away from the actual inharmonicity of some notes that when those notes are in tune you have some strobe rings slowly spinning left, some standing still, and some slowly spinning right.

I'll illustrate what I mean with the following image that I made by using (imperfectly measured) inharmonicity data from a Lester spinet piano:
[Linked Image]
In Black, you have the measured inharmonicity (black dots) and the "best fit" curve (black line) that is used for notes where inharmonicity hasn't been measured. Then, in Blue, Green, and Red, you have the inharmonicity that we use to actually calculate the tuning, which is a weighted average of the actual measured data and the best fit curve. Looking at the black dots, you can see that there is a jump in inharmonicity around notes 34-35 (lowest plainwire strings probably). The Blue (default) line does an OK job of capturing this, but it's not perfect. Raising the "weight factor" to 0.95 (red) does a better job of capturing the jump, but it also increases the error due to two bad inharmonicity measurements in the Treble (notes 62 & 67). On the other hand, lowering the "weight factor" brings all the notes closer to the best fit curve.

The next image shows how these changes in inharmonicity weighting affect the tuning curve.
[Linked Image]
You can see that the blue (default) and red (high weight) curves tune notes 34-35 more flat than the green (low weight) curve. Their higher inharmonicity means the upper harmonics will trend sharp, so to counter this you set the fundamental flat so the harmonics will be in tune. However, the red line in particular is tuning notes 62 and 67 sharp to counter what it thinks is low inharmonicity, and it's tuning notes 81 & 86 (related to 62 & 67 via perfect 12th) flat to compensate for the (flat) upper harmonics of 62 & 67.

These differences aren't quite as big as they look on the tuning curve; when you look at the frequencies of the actual harmonics you're tuning most of the differences are smaller than 1 cent.
[Linked Image]

The takeaway from all this is that if you want to raise the weight to get tunings better tailored to the oddities of your piano's scale, you should keep an eye on the inharmonicity graph to make sure there aren't errors there that will affect your tuning.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2763438
09/04/18 05:33 PM
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Does anyone use an external microphone with their smartphone or tablet, for better frequency pickup?

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2763459
09/04/18 06:24 PM
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I have a flat-response mic that I used for a while with Verituner - inconclusive results.

I should probably try again with EPT to see if I can notice a graphical difference in any of the inharmonicity measuring.

Ron Koval

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2763483
09/04/18 09:46 PM
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Thanks Anthony!


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Beemer] #2763484
09/04/18 09:52 PM
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Quote
I too am a beta user and have updated but where do I find the change you mentioned? Also have you been able to open the beta app in an additional Android device. I have it working on my phone but on also installing it on my Android tablet, despite Playstore saying "you are a beta user' the app on my tablet is not a beta version.


You can see the change under General Settings. As far as the beta version on your tablet is concerned, you might try uninstalling it and then install the beta version which you should see in the "Beta" heading when you go to "My apps & games". Hope that helps!


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2763507
09/05/18 04:16 AM
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Scott,
Latest beta update just came through for me on my phone so I now see the inharmonicity variation. Uninstalled from the tablet installation and installed the beta from Playstore. Although the installation confirmed I am a beta tester the app installs as 'free' not a paid version. There is an upgrade button but I guess this would cause me to pay twice.

Not a real problem as I was only wanting to install on my tablet to see if it had a better mic.

Ian


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: David Boyce] #2763509
09/05/18 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Does anyone use an external microphone with their smartphone or tablet, for better frequency pickup?

Hello David,
I investigated this and found that neither my LG phone or Samsung Gaalaxy tablet could use an external mic except if the app was a dedicated digital audio recording app. So even if the device had the capability Anthony Wiley would need to rewrite his software.
I have Neumann KM184 professional condenser mics that I use for recording piano and it would have been interesting to see if they improved EPT ' response to the top notes.
I tried using an Android emulator app that runs in Windows so that I could use my Audient iD44 usb interface with the mic but EPT opens and runs as if in treakle.

Ian


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2763557
09/05/18 12:10 PM
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Thanks for that response, Ian. I had noted comments in online forums about problems with various devices not recognising external mics for video recording. I bought a little cable to match the three-segment mic jack plug to the four-segment sockets on my phone and tablet, but haven't yet tried it out, so we shall see how it goes.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2764016
09/07/18 03:47 PM
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I'm not sure if this has been addressed already, but you can run EPT on a Windows PC using an emulator. I use the BlueStacks emulator. It is free, and is blindingly fast for high end games and runs EPT perfectly. This should open up the opportunity for other non-android users to give it a try.

BlueStacks System Requirements
1.4GB HDD space should be vacant.
2.A minimum of 2GB RAM should be available.
3.Internet connectivity.
4.A graphics card to enhance the user experience.

Download it here: https://bluestacksguides.com/bluestacks-download/#info

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: prout] #2764085
09/07/18 10:59 PM
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Prout,
Strange, I have a high end desktop, a Gforce 1060 graphics card, 32GB memory ,. M2 ssd, 320mbs internet. Bluestacks takes ages to load and EPT beta does not run smoothly.

Ian


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2764155
09/08/18 11:28 AM
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I tried using an external microphone. It plugs into my headphone jack and is defined as a headset microphone. Different phone models may have features in the contacts of the microphone connection. It needs to be specified for a specific model or experiment. Microphone Panasonic WM-61A.

[Linked Image][Linked Image]

It differs linearity in the amplitude-frequency response. When you look at the spectrogram from this microphone, you can notice that it can not respond to certain events occurring in the phone. For example, it can fade a little at a certain frequency. With one phone there was a background, when I removed my hand from the sensor of the screen. With the current model this is not. Fonis can also be powered or cellular. I do not know how, but the spectrogram sometimes showed a squeak or buzz at some frequencies. Therefore, when used with a tuner, it is desirable to turn on the airplane mode. Most likely, good phone models (not the cheapest ones) will not have any problems.
   About the use of a microphone - I did not find any special differences between the external microphone and the built-in microphone. The differences are so minimal that they will hardly affect the quality of the setting. Another point may be the location of the microphone. At frequencies of the upper range, the wavelength is not so great, if you catch a standing wave in the room or the body of the instrument, that is, the probability that the microphone will be in the node of the wave. Then some overtone phone will not be able to hear. The output is just to move the phone a few centimeters to the side.

   Pleasant update - I continue to use and test!

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Scherbakov Alex] #2764158
09/08/18 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Scherbakov Alex
I tried using an external microphone. It plugs into my headphone jack and is defined as a headset microphone. Different phone models may have features in the contacts of the microphone connection. It needs to be specified for a specific model or experiment. Microphone Panasonic WM-61A.

[Linked Image][Linked Image]

It differs linearity in the amplitude-frequency response. When you look at the spectrogram from this microphone, you can notice that it can not respond to certain events occurring in the phone. For example, it can fade a little at a certain frequency. With one phone there was a background, when I removed my hand from the sensor of the screen. With the current model this is not. Fonis can also be powered or cellular. I do not know how, but the spectrogram sometimes showed a squeak or buzz at some frequencies. Therefore, when used with a tuner, it is desirable to turn on the airplane mode. Most likely, good phone models (not the cheapest ones) will not have any problems.
   About the use of a microphone - I did not find any special differences between the external microphone and the built-in microphone. The differences are so minimal that they will hardly affect the quality of the setting. Another point may be the location of the microphone. At frequencies of the upper range, the wavelength is not so great, if you catch a standing wave in the room or the body of the instrument, that is, the probability that the microphone will be in the node of the wave. Then some overtone phone will not be able to hear. The output is just to move the phone a few centimeters to the side.

   Pleasant update - I continue to use and test!

I assume that as with my phone and tablet you too cannot disable AGC?
Ian


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2764159
09/08/18 11:37 AM
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Beemer, AGC-?

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2764167
09/08/18 12:03 PM
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Automatic Gain Control: AGC

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2764181
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From wikipedia:
A potential disadvantage of AGC is that when recording something like music with quiet and loud passages such as classical music, the AGC will tend to make the quiet passages louder and the loud passages quieter, compressing the dynamic range; the result can be a reduced musical quality if the signal is not re-expanded when playing, as in a companding system.

also from wikipedia:

In its simplest form, a limiter can consist of a pair of back-to-back clamp diodes, which simply shunt excess signal amplitude to ground when the diode conduction threshold is exceeded. This approach will simply clip off the top of large signals, leading to high levels of distortion

end quotes

The above is why I would prefer to switch off AGC when EPT is aquiring sound.

Ian


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2764359
09/09/18 02:16 PM
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I noticed how the tuner's spectrum is updated. It is updated approximately twice per second. But a little different is observed in the program of the Spectroid for android:



Here the spectrum is updated in different ways at different frequencies. Lower-rare, high-often. Noticeably how the clarity of frequency mapping improves. In the settings of the Spectroid, this is called "decimations".
Does it make sense to do something similar in the Easy tuner? Maybe it can add tenaciousness, accuracy, sensitivity, performance? Maybe for each note you need your own zones, in which the frequency of the spectrum zone update would correlate with the frequency of overtones?
Just like the idea ..


Last edited by Scherbakov Alex; 09/09/18 02:20 PM.
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2764383
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Ian, I recall a comment on radio that Classic FM (a UK classical music station, folks) is much more compressed than the BBC's Radio 3 (also classical, folks), because it is reckoned that Classic FM is listened to more while driving, and the 'heavier' Radio 3 more in the home. Compressing the dynamic range more, suits the station better to an in-car listening experience, whereas BBC Radio 3 is higher-fidelity.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: David Boyce] #2764392
09/09/18 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Ian, I recall a comment on radio that Classic FM (a UK classical music station, folks) is much more compressed than the BBC's Radio 3 (also classical, folks), because it is reckoned that Classic FM is listened to more while driving, and the 'heavier' Radio 3 more in the home. Compressing the dynamic range more, suits the station better to an in-car listening experience, whereas BBC Radio 3 is higher-fidelity.

Radio 3 on the internet is very high quality with little compression. On FM, Radio 3 is considerably compressed (hence lower dynamic range), though probably not as compressed as Classic FM.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2764396
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Ian, I recall a comment on radio that Classic FM (a UK classical music station, folks) is much more compressed than the BBC's Radio 3 (also classical, folks), because it is reckoned that Classic FM is listened to more while driving, and the 'heavier' Radio 3 more in the home. Compressing the dynamic range more, suits the station better to an in-car listening experience, whereas BBC Radio 3 is higher-fidelity.

Radio 3 on the internet is very high quality with little compression. On FM, Radio 3 is considerably compressed (hence lower dynamic range and lower fidlelity), though probably not as compressed as Classic FM.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2764470
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David and David-G,

I think your mentioning compression is off topic with regard to AGC. AGC is a gain boosting facility that compensates for the recording gain being set too low. My concern is the uncertainty of the response speed of the agc both on it's increase and decrease. Might some partials be unnecessarily attenuated or even accentuated.

Also off topic but one that is dear to my heart is radio broadcast. We are fortunate that the BBC and UK government has backed off from dropping FM broadcasts. Forcing us in the UK to listen to DAB broadcasts which can be as low as 60 Kbps mono with MP-2 codec. I see no sign of DAB+ being broadcast by the BBC despite radios now being available in the UK. In 2017 the BBC broadcast the Proms using Radio 3 Concert Sound with FLAC codec but I failed to find out if this was repeated this year.

Ian


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2764828
09/11/18 09:14 PM
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I need help navigating the purchase/upgrade to EPT "Plus". I tried the demo version and was impressed. However, my efforts to now upgrade have been unsuccessful, and, I do not understand the reasons why. Bear in mind that I hate smartphones and the whole Googleverse, but, use it grudgingly, as it slowly takes over the world and becomes the only way to live.

The downloading of the trial/demo version went very quickly and smoothly several days ago. Here is my best description of what happens when I try to upgrade to "Plus":

My very first effort appeared to be successful, giving me a confirmation of the purchase. I thought this odd because at no point was I asked to provide a payment method. I think I was only asked to sign in to my google account. However, immediately after this "transaction" I found that the download did not occur and that I was still presented with the option to upgrade to "Plus", as if I was not yet a "Plus" customer. I do not remember all the details well, as, I was not on alert that something was amiss until this point in time.


Subsequent efforts to upgrade have gone roughly as follows:


From EPT on my cellphone screen, I tap the menu pulldown in the upper left, and then tap the "Upgrade" button at the bottom of the pull down menu. This results in a screen that asks me to "Choose an account". As options, it offers up my Gmail account and the choice to "Add account".

I tap the button for my email and "ok".

It then goes to a screen that says "Oops! There was a problem with your purchase. Try again later!"

If I go back to the pull down menu from the upper left corner of EPT and start over, I get the message: "Error purchasing: Value <!DOCTYPE of type java.lang.String cannot be converted to JSONObject"


Do any of you understand what all this stuff means? And, do you have advise as to what I need to do to upgrade to "Plus"?

The sequence of failure above has repeated itself faithfully both early this afternoon, and again, late this evening.

Thank you for your help.


Ralph

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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2764839
09/11/18 10:13 PM
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I just discovered, before shutting the computer down for the evening, that I received a receipt for a $20 payment to EPT via PayPal in my email about the same time that I was attempting to upgrade. So, I checked my EPT for the upgrade. But, my EPT has not been upgraded to "Plus".

I have no clue as to what's going on. I am sending copies of these messages to the "Contact" address at the EPT website, but, understand that the problem could be with the Google-Ralph relationship, in addition to the possibility of an EPT problem.


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2764840
09/11/18 10:16 PM
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Ralph - A couple things to try. 1. Uninstall EPT and then install it again. 2. Power down your device and start it up again. (You could also uninstall, power down & up, then install EPT.) By the way, if you have a problem with ANY Android app these two steps are the first things to do.

Question: Do you have a payment method (credit card) registered with Google? If not, you won't be able to purchase anything. It certainly is curious that initially you got a conformation but the paid version didn't show up.


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2764842
09/11/18 10:20 PM
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Thanks, That Guy.

Apparently we posted at the same time. I have updated information that appears in the post immediately preceding yours.

I will try the uninstall/power down, and report back.


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2764843
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Thank you for your advice, That Guy! It appears to have worked. I found an "uninstall" function in my phone settings panel, and uninstalled EPT trial/demo version.

Then I powered down, removed the phone battery, replaced, powered up, and went to the EPT website and clicked the link to Google Play Store. I installed from there.

After some tense moments of no visible response, the phone finally started downloading something. At first, it showed on my phone as the Trial/demo/Free version. I went to the pull down menu in the upper left and clicked the upgrade button again to see what level of upgrade I was now being offered, and it still offered me the same upgrade to Plus that I had already paid for. But, a minute later, I got one of those translucent messages that said "Plus activated".

Now EPT shows I have the Plus version.

Thanks again, for your very helpful reply. smile


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2764925
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Yeah! Glad it worked!! thumb


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2765108
09/13/18 12:18 AM
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Ralphiano,
I'm not sure what went wrong with the purchase. Sometimes the Google Play Store is weird. Sometimes it takes several minutes or longer for the payment to "clear" and pass risk checks, particularly when you don't have a credit card linked to your Google account. (I checked the details of your purchase from the receipt info you emailed me and there was a 5 minute delay, but I don't know if that's enough to explain what you experienced.) There could also have been a delay or error with other checks the app does before unlocking. Often the problem is resolved by waiting and trying to unlock again, although uninstalling and reinstalling sounds like a good idea as well. Honestly I'm not an expert in this area, and most of what I think I know is second hand from other users' feedback.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: AWilley] #2765258
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Originally Posted by AWilley
Ralphiano,
I'm not sure what went wrong with the purchase. Sometimes the Google Play Store is weird. Sometimes it takes several minutes or longer for the payment to "clear" and pass risk checks, particularly when you don't have a credit card linked to your Google account. (I checked the details of your purchase from the receipt info you emailed me and there was a 5 minute delay, but I don't know if that's enough to explain what you experienced.) There could also have been a delay or error with other checks the app does before unlocking. Often the problem is resolved by waiting and trying to unlock again, although uninstalling and reinstalling sounds like a good idea as well. Honestly I'm not an expert in this area, and most of what I think I know is second hand from other users' feedback.


I want to take the opportunity to express my gratitude for the promptness of your response to my problem. I sent my request via your website's "Contact Us" button late on the evening on Sept 11, and had your email response in my inbox early the following morning. thumb I really appreciate that, and, it makes me feel good about using your product. I hope this EPT endeavor goes very, very well for you.


Ralph

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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2766080
09/17/18 04:50 PM
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Scherbakov Alex Offline
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It was thought .. in connection with the addition of the adjustment of the weight of nonharmonicity ..

I can probably guess how the calculation of the tool building works in this tuner. An attempt is made to produce as small a discrepancy as possible between certain types of overtones, taking into account their amplitude. This occurs over the entire range of the instrument. If the instrument does not have very high-quality tenor strings, this results in an increase in unevenness in the tuning. If these irregularities are distributed over the entire range, then the temper zone also loses its purity. But with auditory tuning, the temperament zone is very clean and it does not depend on the unevenness in the tenor or bass. (with auditory tuning, the central octave sets the basis of the system).
When changing the adjustment of the weight of disharmony, I noticed that the adjusting curve in the zone of temperament is also slightly modified. Accordingly, we can get more purity as a whole, but a little lose in accuracy the intervals of the zone of temperament. Is it important? Still, the zone of temperament is in the zone of maximum sensitivity of hearing. Also in this zone the strings are fairly even even in the most substandard instruments. Classical setting implies the ideal in this zone. And I thought that maybe the tuner could calculate the system creating more changes around the edges of the band and try to achieve perfection in the center(Creating a classical form of beats in the intervals in the zone of temperament)(The central zone does not react to the features of the edges.).
Those. if I choose the adjustment of the weight of the inharmoniousness in 0.95, it would not create differences from the setting of 0.25 in the center. But the bass at the same time changed. Maybe this setting also had less effect on the treble.
Of course, I absolutely do not know what's going on under the hood of the tuner .. but such thoughts ..

Last edited by Scherbakov Alex; 09/17/18 04:57 PM.
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2770961
10/10/18 04:12 AM
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I definitely like the sounding of the intervals at the transition from double twisted to triple unworn strings when tuning using the 0.95 inharmonicity compensation value.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Scherbakov Alex] #2771409
10/11/18 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Scherbakov Alex
I definitely like the sounding of the intervals at the transition from double twisted to triple unworn strings when tuning using the 0.95 inharmonicity compensation value.

Alex,

In what way did you find it different?

Ian


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2793339
12/20/18 07:25 AM
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Just a question...

to measure the inarmonicty in EPT, when you say just play all notes of the piano througt. .Do you mute the unisons, so that sounds only one string per key.?
I think its must be obvious, but maybe not.
Can EPT measure inharmonicity with the 2 or 3 strings of the unison singing at the same time??

Thanks

Pablo


Pablo Woiz
Yamaha G2, Roland Fp-30 //before: Technics p-30, Casio Privia px-100, Yamaha MX-49, M.Audio Axiom-61, Yamaha CP-80, Roland f-20, Upright Zimmermann.
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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Pablo Woiz] #2793958
12/21/18 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Pablo Woiz
Just a question...

to measure the inarmonicty in EPT, when you say just play all notes of the piano througt. .Do you mute the unisons, so that sounds only one string per key.?
I think its must be obvious, but maybe not.
Can EPT measure inharmonicity with the 2 or 3 strings of the unison singing at the same time??

Thanks

Pablo

Yes, I always mute off the 2 outside strings and in the bass section mute off one of the doubles. I'm sure EPT measures some kind of inharmonicity with all the strings sounding but I would think you'd get a more accurate reading with only one. Also, keep in mind that you don't have to play every note, I just choose to do that so I have a full "picture" of where the piano is currently at.


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Scherbakov Alex] #2805997
01/24/19 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Scherbakov Alex
I noticed how the tuner's spectrum is updated. It is updated approximately twice per second. But a little different is observed in the program of the Spectroid for android:



Here the spectrum is updated in different ways at different frequencies. Lower-rare, high-often. Noticeably how the clarity of frequency mapping improves. In the settings of the Spectroid, this is called "decimations".
Does it make sense to do something similar in the Easy tuner? Maybe it can add tenaciousness, accuracy, sensitivity, performance? Maybe for each note you need your own zones, in which the frequency of the spectrum zone update would correlate with the frequency of overtones?
Just like the idea ..


This is normally done with wavelets, which is easily google-able. An FFT integrates time from negative infinity to positive infinity, whereas the wavelets break up time in an ascending series of chunks. So, a long(er) time frame for low frequencies, because you need more time to get enough information to determine the frequency, and then progressively shorter time frames for higher frequencies.

The point of this is to have better time information about when frequency appear. If I sample 1 second of a song/piece with FFT, I can tell you what frequencies are present and what amplitude, but can't tell you, for example, that there is a staccato piccolo playing only in the first half second - I just see high amplitude, high frequency components. With wavelets I may look at the bass with a 1 second window, but higher notes with a 1/128 second window (the implication is I use windows of 1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, etc). This gives me a high resolution look into the timing of the high frequencies.

Is that useful for a tuning app? I dunno. You are adding time information, not new frequency information, and at the cost of more processing.


Last edited by RogerRL; 01/24/19 01:48 PM.

Shigaru Kawai SK-2, Kawai MP11SE
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2806014
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So I am very new to this - I bought a hammer last night, along with the app, and tuned my piano. It went okay, as in it sounds a lot better now.

However, I have no idea to what precision I should be aiming. Before tuning I had around -2 to +8 cents off across the keyboard with a few notes with pretty mismatched unisons. Now it is all well under 1. But what is your threshold for 'good'. Each time I hit the note (single string) not only does the needle dance around, but it also isn't repeatable. As in one time I may get it bouncing from .1 to .4, the next time it is -.2 to .3, and so on. Also, my pin turning technique is nonexistent, so once I got it down to around .3 to .4 or I was pretty happy. But as a pro what are you aiming for? Is it reasonable for a pro to see 0.0 for every string? I want to be as accurate as possible, but I don't want to sit there and endlessly adjust pins trying to get 0.0 if it is an impossible standard to meet. More wear and tear, more chances of an accident. I just aimed for it to bounce no more than around .3 or .4, always by dropping down from slightly above (1cent or so), and to trend just slightly positive vs some strings positive, some negative.


Shigaru Kawai SK-2, Kawai MP11SE
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: RogerRL] #2806080
01/24/19 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RogerRL
So I am very new to this - I bought a hammer last night, along with the app, and tuned my piano. It went okay, as in it sounds a lot better now.

However, I have no idea to what precision I should be aiming. Before tuning I had around -2 to +8 cents off across the keyboard with a few notes with pretty mismatched unisons. Now it is all well under 1. But what is your threshold for 'good'. Each time I hit the note (single string) not only does the needle dance around, but it also isn't repeatable. As in one time I may get it bouncing from .1 to .4, the next time it is -.2 to .3, and so on. Also, my pin turning technique is nonexistent, so once I got it down to around .3 to .4 or I was pretty happy. But as a pro what are you aiming for? Is it reasonable for a pro to see 0.0 for every string? I want to be as accurate as possible, but I don't want to sit there and endlessly adjust pins trying to get 0.0 if it is an impossible standard to meet. More wear and tear, more chances of an accident. I just aimed for it to bounce no more than around .3 or .4, always by dropping down from slightly above (1cent or so), and to trend just slightly positive vs some strings positive, some negative.


Roger, I doubt that any pro would be able to manage 0.0 for every string. I'm sure that everybody's standards are different, but if I can get everything within a <1 cent window I'm usually pretty happy. My target window is probably from about -0.2 to +0.3 cents. (If I have to choose between leaving it slightly below pitch or slightly above, I choose slightly above for consistency.) Also I recommend not paying as much attention to the numbers and the dial and focusing more on the spinning strobes. They will give you faster and more consistent feedback. (Also a reason I tend to err on one side of the pitch...I think you get better precision by keeping the wheel between stopped and turning slowly clockwise than by keeping it between slowly clockwise and slowly counter-clockwise.)

Re: Wavelets, that's actually something I looked into, but I stuck with the FFT because it was fast and simple. I'm actually taking the FFT more often, but I'm only drawing every half second or so to save on...well...drawing time. I agree it could be done much more elegantly, but I've had more pressing priorities like getting the dial and numbers to give faster feedback, fixing bugs, and adding features like custom temperaments. In any case that's a beautiful spectrum you posted above and it makes me want to redo mine :-)

Last edited by AWilley; 01/24/19 04:01 PM. Reason: add a bit about erring on one side of the pitch
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: AWilley] #2806658
01/25/19 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AWilley

Roger, I doubt that any pro would be able to manage 0.0 for every string. I'm sure that everybody's standards are different, but if I can get everything within a <1 cent window I'm usually pretty happy. My target window is probably from about -0.2 to +0.3 cents.


Thanks Anthony. My ears don't seem to tell me there is a tuning problem at .2 or .3, but then I have tinnitus! I'll just make my ears happy in this range and call it good.


Shigaru Kawai SK-2, Kawai MP11SE
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2825541
03/11/19 06:14 PM
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Pleasant update!

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Scherbakov Alex] #2825611
03/11/19 08:27 PM
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Thank you! I'm glad you like it. It's still just for Beta testers (good thing too, since there are a few bugs...) I pushed it out a bit prematurely mainly because of the improvement to the dial/number speed, but some of the other new stuff is still a work in progress.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: AWilley] #2825620
03/11/19 08:55 PM
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I just finished a piano with the latest beta version and I really appreciated the improved response of the needle with the strobe rings. Very nice job on a small console!


Brent Musgrave
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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2825825
03/12/19 10:33 AM
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I'm new to tuning, but found EPT very intuitive. I found it useful to get started fairly quickly, then as reassurance as I started to trust my ears.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2825882
03/12/19 12:54 PM
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I have not yet had the opportunity to evaluate the latest beta version.
You say there are some more mistakes. How do they appear, do they affect the result? How can they be avoided or compensated?

Last edited by Scherbakov Alex; 03/12/19 12:56 PM.
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: AWilley] #2825889
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Originally Posted by AWilley
I've had more pressing priorities like [...] adding features like custom temperaments.


That's great! Thanks for creating the app by the way, I just bought it two days ago.


Musician / tuner
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Scherbakov Alex] #2825917
03/12/19 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Scherbakov Alex
I have not yet had the opportunity to evaluate the latest beta version.
You say there are some more mistakes. How do they appear, do they affect the result? How can they be avoided or compensated?


Current known bugs (in order of severity) are:
1. Starting/loading a new tuning file when the current file is in the "locked" state results in the new tuning file being "locked" as well. The danger is that while the app measures inharmonicity as normal, it won't recalculate the tuning curve. The workaround is to press the "lock tuning curve" button twice.
2. I'm looking into two reports of bugs affecting certain tablets (one where the automatic note detection isn't working, another where the strobe rings don't work in Landscape mode)
3. Creating a custom non-equal temperament causes the app to crash on certain devices.
I hope to have fixes for these go live by the end of the week.

Some other things I'm currently working on are:
Some new graphics for the pitch raise dialogue to help new users understand what is meant by terms like "lowest unwound/plainwire string"
[Linked Image]
And better note detection for the top and bottom octaves (don't have an ETA for that yet, but hopefully soon...I've got some code working in Matlab)

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2825944
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Thanks for the details. It is good that these small mistakes do not affect the quality of the piano tuning. (you should only take a closer look at locking the curve when changing files).
The picture is very visual and can really help users not to make mistakes when specifying the string.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2826312
03/13/19 01:04 PM
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Seems overkill to produce a graphic so that a tuner can recognise the "lowest unwound note"
Ian (beta)


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Beemer] #2826334
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Originally Posted by Beemer
Seems overkill to produce a graphic so that a tuner can recognise the "lowest unwound note"
Ian (beta)

It would be overkill, I suppose, if we're assuming the tuner understands English well enough to decipher the words. ;-) I am working on translations for some of the more common languages, but I don't think I'll ever cover them all.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2831278
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Hello!
In the piano most often you can find the bass stem of the following design:

[Linked Image][Linked Image]

In this construction, the steg is not directly on the deck (as in the tenor and the treble), but hangs like a bridge. The strings are attached to the steg in one place, and the steg to the deck in the other, literally nearby. It can be assumed that this adds more mobility to the steg. When vibrations of the string (if we take into account only vibrations that are perpendicular to the deck), such a design can create micro variations in the tension of the string. Those. (in the example with the piano) the string oscillations forward - backward from the swinging of the steg will be up - down. As stated in this article:

https://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/weinreic/mistuned.html

[Linked Image][Linked Image]

The mobility of the string can lead to an increase or decrease in tone. It depends on the nature of the mobility of the mount. If the support is springy - the string is longer - the tone is lower. And vice versa. But in the bass stem with such a construction as in the photo above, the vibrations in the direction of the string length are also added.
The deck design has a certain impedance, which is different at different frequencies. Also in the characteristics there is a phase angle and force.
Snapshot:

[Linked Image][Linked Image]

(From the article:)

https://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/wogram/inputimp.html

Since the impedance, the force and the phase angle in a particular place of the stick and a specific string have different characteristics depending on the frequency. This can lead to a certain shift in the frequencies of the overtones of the sounding bass string. (from some frequencies steg springs, from some vice versa ..). That, in principle, occurs in entwined strings near the piano and mao-size grand pianos with a similar device of the bass head. Perhaps this leads to the fact that two seemingly identical strings have a discrepancy in overtones. As well as the discrepancy with the frequencies that tuners calculate according to the inharmoniousness formula. And this brings additional complexity to the setting.

I do not have any research on this, and just expressing my guesses.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2831286
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..and still have a question.
My new phone has two microphones. One is used for voice, the other is for noise reduction. Apparently he works in antiphase and thereby deducts the surrounding noise during a conversation. This is very common in the latest phone models. I also noticed that it is possible to record stereo and video with stereo sound. I wonder if the tuner uses two microphones when tuning? Can this improve the sensitivity of the program, or vice versa? Sometimes standing waves can occur in the piano body or in certain rooms. If the length of the standing wave will correlate with the distance between the microphones of the phone, will this not lead to any effects? (frequency canceled ..)?

This is interesting and, I think, takes place to pay attention ..

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2831421
03/25/19 10:06 PM
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Alex,

From my understanding we only use/access the one primary microphone. There might be some small benefit in using 2 mics if the primary mic happened to be in the node of a standing wave, but with the complex acoustical space created by the large piano soundboard and the room I don't think there would be any true nodes where it is silent at certain frequencies. I think the overhead of trying to record with 2 mics would probably outweigh the benefits. On the 2 mic destructive interference, here's some random trivia: if the two mics were 6 inches (15 centimeters) apart then the frequency with a half-wavelength equal to the distance between the mics would be about would be about 1130 Hz (roughly C#6).

On the soundboard/bridge post above, that was a very interesting read...I've not seen it explained quite that way before. I was aware that there was some shifting of the harmonics in the low bass, but I assumed it was due to resonances in the soundboard. When I first started with this app I tried using an inharmonicity model that would account for these shifted harmonics, but it ended up causing trouble (picking up noise and pretending that the noise was shifted harmonics, and distorting the tuning curve). Now the way I do it is if there is a harmonic that is significantly shifted from where it is supposed to be, the app will ignore that harmonic for the inharmonicity calculation. This gives the double benefit of excluding the loud "false harmonics" due to longitudinal vibrations in the string. Then during the tuning, the multiple strobe rings representing multiple harmonics helps to dilute the influence of any shifted harmonics that we ignored for the tuning curve calculation. Lastly, I could be completely wrong, but from what I have observed, the lowest frequency harmonic seems more likely to be shifted more than higher ones. And the strobes for the low bass are set to measure higher harmonics in the range from A2 to A4. We never actually never use harmonics frequencies below A2 (110 Hz) for tuning. At that point we're only listening to the upper partials.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2833489
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I thought an update might be appreciated regarding the direction I'm going with Easy Piano Tuner.

As current Beta testers have noticed I am in the process of renaming the app. I had originally settled on "Easy" to emphasize what I felt was an intuitive interface and easy learning curve, but honestly I've never been happy with that name. The app is currently named "Smart Piano Tuner" on the devices of Beta testers, but that's not going to be the final name either. I'm holding back with any further renames of the app until I'm 100% certain what the final name will be, because I don't want to repeatedly send people searching through their list of apps when I push updates.

Also because of the naming issue I've been holding back on pushing any updates to the main "Production" track since this January, and I've been encouraging users interested in getting the updates early to use the "Beta" track. The faster needle response, the temperament support, the improved note detection, and several minor changes are all still in Beta only. I realize that's not ideal, and I'm moving as quickly as I have time to finish what is probably going to end up as a "2.0" version release.

Lastly, I apologize for the unsolicited "announcement" tone of this post. I really appreciate your hospitality here at PianoWorld and I don't want to impose on that. I'm sensitive about not using someone else's forum for "free advertising" and I've been trying to keep all my posts related to ETDs/ETAs confined to this thread, and then only responding to questions. I am planning to create a more dedicated forum on my website that can be used for Q&A, announcements, etc., so as to not take unfair advantage of your hospitality here.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2833504
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Thanks for the update Anthony!


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2833685
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I don't see your posts as promotional, Anthony, fear not! It's all interesting information. How about "Advanced Piano Tuner"?

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: David Boyce] #2833929
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
I don't see your posts as promotional, Anthony, fear not! It's all interesting information. How about "Advanced Piano Tuner"?

Hmmm... You might be on to something there. 🤔 I like it. 👍


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2833946
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I just downloaded an app from Playstore called Smart Piano Tuner. It appears to be an ordinary chromatic tuning app.


Joe Gumbosky
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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: David Boyce] #2834010
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Originally Posted by daniokeeper
I just downloaded an app from Playstore called Smart Piano Tuner. It appears to be an ordinary chromatic tuning app.

Yeah, I had noticed that app as well. I think the developer named it that because it's a tuner app with a piano keyboard. Another reason for me to not use the name Smart Piano Tuner. (Reason #1 is that it sounds like you're talking about a person who is smart and also a piano tuner.)

Originally Posted by David Boyce
How about "Advanced Piano Tuner"?

I'm actually leaning towards one of those names where you mash words together to get a unique word that can be used as a "brand" instead of just a general descriptor. An example would be something like "EasyStrobe Piano Tuner". (Just an example) It's kind of a pain because every wordsmash combination sounds super corny the first time you say it out loud. 🤨

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2834013
04/01/19 09:28 PM
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Tony's Temper Tuner.


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: David Boyce] #2834110
04/02/19 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
I don't see your posts as promotional, Anthony, fear not! It's all interesting information. How about "Advanced Piano Tuner"?

Suits me too.


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2839975
04/16/19 06:07 PM
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Oh yes, here came a video that demonstrates the mechanism for changing the ratio of overtones in addition to inharmonicity. Simple and schematic:




Shown for one frequency. And since the impedance is associated with the frequency, each overtone will behave individually. In more or less degree. Now it became clear.

A superficial look at wavelets led to the opinion that this is a more sensitive tool in the informative plan. I think their future.

"Each of the chirplets essentially models the underlying physics of motion of a floating object. Because it so closely captures the essence of the physical phenomena, the transform is near optimal for the problem of detecting floating objects.
Besides applying it to our radar image processing interests, we also found the transform provided a very good analysis of actual sampled sounds, such as bird chirps and police sirens, which have a chirplike nonstationarity, as well as Doppler sounds from people entering a room, and from swimmers amid sea clutter."

Quote from: [url=http://wearcam.org/chirplet/vi91/index.htm][/url]

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2840669
04/19/19 02:24 PM
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I have the pro version. How far up the scale should I expect to be able to record inharmonicity measurements?
It stops around A6 for me.

Gary


Working on being a retired piano tuner.
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: MilePost51] #2841030
04/20/19 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MilePost51
I have the pro version. How far up the scale should I expect to be able to record inharmonicity measurements?
It stops around A6 for me.

Gary


You should probably consider getting a phone with better microphones that don't do any Automatic Gain Control. I have a OnePlus 5 and it is superb in terms of recording and reproducing a piano. Here is an example of what this phone records out of the box:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9htzzbAHKE

It captures the full range for Smart Piano Tuner to get the inharmonicity calculaton right on my Steinway B.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: MilePost51] #2841318
04/22/19 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MilePost51
I have the pro version. How far up the scale should I expect to be able to record inharmonicity measurements?
It stops around A6 for me.

Gary


There is a hardcoded cutoff on measuring inharmonicity above note 75 (B6). There are multiple reasons for this:

  • The inharmonicity above C7 doesn't really matter much, since at that point you're mostly just tuning the fundamental to the overtones of the notes below.
  • The inharmonicity in the top octave is difficult to measure anyway because any overtones decay rapidly leaving just the fundamental harmonic.
  • Even though we're not measuring it directly, the inharmonicity in the top octave is approximated quite well by the extrapolation of the "best fit" curve (because on a log scale it ends up as stright line for most of the treble bridge).
  • To save on processing power we are actually not analyzing frequencies significantly above where C#8 would be, so the second harmonics of most of the notes in the top octave are out of range anyway.


On phone microphones, I'm not an expert. I would say that as long as you can get down to about 100 Hz before there's significant rolloff you're OK. We don't tune to frequencies below that...the 4th harmonic of A0 is at 110 Hz, and you're probably tuning to the 6th (165 Hz) and 8th (220 Hz) harmonics. So all the devices in the image below would work great except the iPhone3GS. (Sorry, I know iPhones aren't relevant here, that was just the first image I found on Google.)
[Linked Image]
(image credit blog.faberacoustical.com/)

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2841386
04/22/19 09:49 AM
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Thanks Anthony


Working on being a retired piano tuner.
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2846129
05/07/19 03:26 PM
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Anthony, thank you very much for that beautiful piece of software.

My piano was last tuned in November, and it's a beast to tune. An 1887 Steinway B with the original agraffes and a re-stringing from 40 years ago. I have bought a really decent tuning lever 2 months ago to touch up on the one or other note, but your software gave me some courage (knowing that my regular technician will come over in 6 weeks anyway).

So, I took the plunge and tuned the whole piano, taking it from 439.1 to 440kHz.

This is the result:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ozX388jxik8QGqM6w0Xz_6_o_PW8YdFG

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2846160
05/07/19 04:39 PM
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Well done you! Thank you for sharing that lovely recording.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: OE1FEU] #2846234
05/07/19 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
Anthony, thank you very much for that beautiful piece of software.

My piano was last tuned in November, and it's a beast to tune. An 1887 Steinway B with the original agraffes and a re-stringing from 40 years ago. I have bought a really decent tuning lever 2 months ago to touch up on the one or other note, but your software gave me some courage (knowing that my regular technician will come over in 6 weeks anyway).

So, I took the plunge and tuned the whole piano, taking it from 439.1 to 440kHz.

This is the result:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ozX388jxik8QGqM6w0Xz_6_o_PW8YdFG

Lovely. Thanks so much for sharing your music. You did a great tuning job!!


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2846568
05/08/19 08:04 PM
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OE1FEU, Thank you for sharing, that's great to hear. And beautiful playing! My biggest problem with tuning older Steinways like the one you describe is "string rendering".

Unrelated note for Beta users: I'm very close to pulling the trigger on the new app name, so expect to have the app icon randomly disappear from wherever you placed it on your device's screen. (sorry about that) And thank you to those of you who have proposed name ideas and provided feedback on some of my ideas.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2846772
05/09/19 12:02 PM
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Exciting times, Anthony!

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2847609
05/12/19 06:58 PM
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I like the new name "PianoMeter", and the new icon.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2847659
05/13/19 04:45 AM
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I like the new name "PianoMeter", and the new icon.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2847702
05/13/19 09:43 AM
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Thanks. A word of advice: never rebrand. Just do it right the first time.
In my case the first time around I didn't even consider things like how the name might be interpreted in other languages, or whether it might have too many letters to fit under the icon on many device screens, showing up as "Easy Pia..."

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2850126
05/19/19 07:40 PM
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Beginner tuner here, thinking about buying easy piano tuner tomorrow but I have a quick question before I end up buying anything that might not work in my case. All my pianos have 85 keys and I know this is ok in tunelab but I'm not sure if that poses a problem with other software and easy piano tuner in particular.

Last edited by awkmusik; 05/19/19 07:43 PM.
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2850129
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It doesn't pose any problem at all!

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2850212
05/20/19 02:46 AM
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How to configure 4 lower extra keys in Bechstein Imperial?

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2850342
05/20/19 10:16 AM
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Surely Bosendorfer Imperial?

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2850376
05/20/19 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Surely Bosendorfer Imperial?



Oh yes! Sorry! I wrote before i woke up completely. Just at work many Bechstein and home Pianoteq Bechstein. Of course Bösendorfer! I also wanted to ask for small changes:
- a large number of letters in the description leads to the crawling of characters on each other.
- dates left and right different formats.

[Linked Image]

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Scherbakov Alex] #2850440
05/20/19 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Scherbakov Alex
How to configure 4 lower extra keys in [Bosendorfer] Imperial?


This is just an idea, as I don't have a convenient Bosendorfer to play around with...

1. Lock the tuning curve so the app isn't trying to measure inharmonicity.
2. Change the note switching mode to "Lock".
3. Use the keyboard at the bottom of the screen or the hidden note switching buttons to switch the note to G#1 (see this tutorial video at the 2:07 mark for how to switch notes manually)
4. Tune G#0, using whichever strobe rings show up. If you make the strobe ring labeled "5" stop turning, you'll be tuning G#0 to G#1 as a 5:10 octave.
5. Step the note down to G1 and repeat for G0, etc.

Let me know if this method works :-)

Thank you for the screenshot of the text wrapping issue. I've put that on my to-do list.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2850447
05/20/19 02:22 PM
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Thank you for the link to the excellent video, Anthony!

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2850656
05/21/19 08:50 AM
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Let's have a whip-round and buy Anthony a Bosendorfer Imperial.....

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: David Boyce] #2850712
05/21/19 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Let's have a whip-round and buy Anthony a Bosendorfer Imperial.....

Ah but for Anthony we might first have to change it's name several times smile
Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2851173
05/22/19 02:22 PM
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I've come across an interesting phenomenon with PianoMeter.

My old tablet (actually a 'phablet', a phone tablet) was missing for a couple of weeks. I got it back today, it having been left in my car which was in for a bodywork repair. It is getting old and creaky anyway (like me), so in the meantime I had bought a new phablet, and installed all the apps I had on the old one, including PianoMeter.

Having got the old one back, I updated Easy Piano Tuner to PianoMeter. On checking against an online 440Hz tone, I find that the old tablet reads it as 6.4Hz sharp. BUT, when I go into the calibration setting, it reads 440 as 440, rock steady. The new phablet (and, indeed, my Android smartphone) reads 440Hz correctly.

Is it something to do with the old version of Android, 4.2.2 running on the old phablet?

Last edited by David Boyce; 05/22/19 02:22 PM.
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: David Boyce] #2851201
05/22/19 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Beemer

Ah but for Anthony we might first have to change it's name several times smile
Ian

HEY! (OK, I guess that's fair :-)

Originally Posted by David Boyce

On checking against an online 440Hz tone, I find that the old tablet reads it as 6.4Hz sharp. BUT, when I go into the calibration setting, it reads 440 as 440, rock steady.
Is it something to do with the old version of Android, 4.2.2 running on the old phablet?

That's really weird. So like 24 cents off? The only time I've seen something like that was when I had an old tuning file loaded where I forgot that I had input a custom offset. It had me scratching my head for like a half hour until I created a new tuning file and the problem went away. If the problem persists after creating a new tuning file could you shoot me an email?

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2851224
05/22/19 05:05 PM
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Sorry sorry sorry, - not 6.4 Hz, but 6.4 CENTS sharp. I've just tried again, loading 'new tuning file', and it's still 6.4 cents sharp. I'm not worried about it at all, as I have my new tablet, just intrigued! Will email you.

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