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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: Beemer] #2726768 04/05/18 02:18 PM
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Understood, thanks Ian


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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: prout] #2726775 04/05/18 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by prout

It is interesting to note that most string players actually do not know how they tune their instrument. That is, they don’t know they are listening to the 3rd partial of the lower note and tuning the upper note to eliminate beats on the 2nd partial of the upper note. They only know that the fifth is beating or not beating, since that is all that matters.


Not only is that all that matters, it is all that happens. Partials are not individual tones that exist distinct from the tone of the string. Even if they were, the vibrations would blend together when they got to your ears. It may be convenient to think of the beating occurring due to partials, but it is just two sounds interacting.


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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: BDB] #2726784 04/05/18 03:22 PM
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Here's a reference about inharmonicity in piano strings from 1884. Page 182.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=kP...coustics%20Clarendon%20Press&f=false

The author refers to an earlier result by Seebeck 1852.

Kees

Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: DoelKees] #2726790 04/05/18 03:39 PM
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Neat reference. Thanks.

Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: Beemer] #2726893 04/06/18 04:37 AM
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For myself, I am convinced that the theory of iH is true by what I hear when I tune. Try this on a big old upright, especially a cheaper model, but it can still be heard on nearly all grands. Tune a really good F3-F4 temperament. Then extend the temperament down with the best sounding 4ths, 5ths and octaves. The M3s will remain quite progressive until you tune the highest wound string, around C2. That M3 will beat much faster than one above it. As you continue expanding down with the best sounding 4ths, 5ths and octaves the M3s that straddle the break will be quite progressive with each other, but not with the ones wholly above or below the break. Why? because of the jump in iH.

The break on spinets is much higher in the scale and it is more difficult to tune a really good temperament. Often this jump in beatrates will be slower across the break because the iH of the upper wound strings is higher than the lowest unwound strings, rather than suddenly lower as it is in larger pianos.

If you don't hear this, I question your ability to discern RBI beatrate progressions. And of course if you want to keep the M3 progressive you can do so by compromising the 4ths 5ths and octaves. That's a personal preference.


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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: UnrightTooner] #2726940 04/06/18 10:31 AM
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What is the theory of inharmonicity that are you talking about?


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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: BDB] #2726952 04/06/18 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by BDB
What is the theory of inharmonicity that are you talking about?


I am not biting. Fish elsewhere.


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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: UnrightTooner] #2727066 04/06/18 05:56 PM
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You know, whenever I ask you to explain how you come to your conclusions, you come up with some sort of excuse why you cannot answer. If you could state what you know, in this case about inharmonicity, clearly, maybe you would be able to begin to understand the problems you have tuning.


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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: Beemer] #2727073 04/06/18 06:33 PM
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Fishies are getting used to the bait.

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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: DoelKees] #2727077 04/06/18 06:51 PM
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Well, maybe you could explain what Jeff cannot. Why would the wound strings be more inharmonic than the plain strings near the break? That flies in the face in any theory of inharmonicity I have ever heard.


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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: BDB] #2727079 04/06/18 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BDB
You know, whenever I ask you to explain how you come to your conclusions, you come up with some sort of excuse why you cannot answer. If you could state what you know, in this case about inharmonicity, clearly, maybe you would be able to begin to understand the problems you have tuning.


I have neither problems tuning nor questions about what I hear. Also, I choose to answer only sincere questions. I have no doubt you remember very well what I have said in the past. If you want to comment on it, go ahead. You need neither my help nor permission. The calculations I have performed and discussed in the past are verifiable. If you or anyone else arrive with significantly different results, feel free to post them - BY STARTING A NEW TOPIC! But of course why would you do so, BDB, since you think inharmonicity is a bunch of malarkey? For that matter why do you even pursue an argument? Sincere people don't argue about what they don't believe in.


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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: UnrightTooner] #2727087 04/06/18 07:33 PM
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In the past, I asked you for your calculations, and you said you yourself could not do them again. If you cannot verify them, why do you now say that they are verifiable?

All I have to work on is that you think you cannot tune a spinet so that the beats are incremental. I think I can. That does not give either of us much to work on. But no matter how many people claim that something cannot be done, it only takes one person doing it to refute that.


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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: BDB] #2727153 04/07/18 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by BDB
In the past, I asked you for your calculations, and you said you yourself could not do them again. If you cannot verify them, why do you now say that they are verifiable?

All I have to work on is that you think you cannot tune a spinet so that the beats are incremental. I think I can. That does not give either of us much to work on. But no matter how many people claim that something cannot be done, it only takes one person doing it to refute that.


You should start another Topic. You should also find the old topic and reference it. (I have said this before...) Seems our memories are different as to what was posted.


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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: Beemer] #2727170 04/07/18 07:32 AM
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I am supposed to start a new topic to ask a question about something you said in this one? You are just evading the question: What is the theory of inharmonicity YOU are using to claim that wound strings have more inharmonicity than adjacent plain strings?


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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: BDB] #2727204 04/07/18 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by BDB
Originally Posted by prout

It is interesting to note that most string players actually do not know how they tune their instrument. That is, they don’t know they are listening to the 3rd partial of the lower note and tuning the upper note to eliminate beats on the 2nd partial of the upper note. They only know that the fifth is beating or not beating, since that is all that matters.


Not only is that all that matters, it is all that happens. Partials are not individual tones that exist distinct from the tone of the string. Even if they were, the vibrations would blend together when they got to your ears. It may be convenient to think of the beating occurring due to partials, but it is just two sounds interacting.


So why then do some tuners here mention listening to 2nd and above partials? Is this only possible when comparing intervals?

Ian


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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: Beemer] #2727221 04/07/18 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Beemer
Originally Posted by BDB
Originally Posted by prout

It is interesting to note that most string players actually do not know how they tune their instrument. That is, they don’t know they are listening to the 3rd partial of the lower note and tuning the upper note to eliminate beats on the 2nd partial of the upper note. They only know that the fifth is beating or not beating, since that is all that matters.


Not only is that all that matters, it is all that happens. Partials are not individual tones that exist distinct from the tone of the string. Even if they were, the vibrations would blend together when they got to your ears. It may be convenient to think of the beating occurring due to partials, but it is just two sounds interacting.


So why then do some tuners here mention listening to 2nd and above partials? Is this only possible when comparing intervals?

Ian
How we perceive events and how we describe those events are two different sides of the same coin.

In science, especially in the realm of physics, we use descriptive models to help us cope with the what is observed, even if the model no longer accords with the latest theories. A good example is the flow of electrons in a vacuum tube. For design purposes and to quantify the transfer characteristics of a given tube, it is convenient to think of an electron ‘current’ flowing from the cathode to the anode and being influenced on the way by various grids. We can actually measure and manipulate this ‘current’, literally with our hands, but in modern quantum theory it might be more appropriate to say there is no ‘current’, and if there was, it would be flowing from the anode to the cathode, not the other way around, and anyway, what’s happening is just a ‘disturbance in the force’. There are no actual electrons, just a wave function.

EDIT: I forgot the point of my exordium. BDB has his way of thinking of tone, and I have mine. We both can tune pianos.

Last edited by prout; 04/07/18 12:01 PM.
Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: Beemer] #2727246 04/07/18 01:29 PM
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I have no idea how others hear things. All I know is that this idea of partials beating against each other makes no sense to me. Some people who claim this claim that pure sine waves do not produce beats, except at the same frequency, which makes no sense, since partials are pure sine waves. There are a lot of other things that do not make sense, like the idea that two partials of greatly differing magnitudes somehow producing beats that one can hear over other sounds of greater magnitude.

That two sounds have some periods of time where the sound of both are headed towards you at the same time, and others when they are headed away from you at the same time makes sense, and it makes sense that those result in greater or lesser volume. Adding partials working in a mishmash of relationships just makes things harder to understand.


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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: Beemer] #2727269 04/07/18 02:49 PM
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BDB, these are colossally idiotic posts. Quit wasting space on the message boards..

Separate resonances do exist in compound sound waves. They're called composite waves! It's not just a convenience offered by Fourier math (though the math is sometimes an estimate recomposition), they also exist in reality! The root of this is how one body, when excited by a dead blow force, almost always has multiple resonant modes. This is what a piano hammer acts as.. and depending on the location of application, the modes can be altered. This is the entire root of strike point in scaling.

Look at Chladni patterns on steel plates. Easier to understand in two dimensions..

Wound strings have lower iH, in general, which exhibits itself more strongly in the higher partials. This is why, when you tune clean 8ves/5ths across a break, the wound strings can exhibit a jump in 3rd/6th beatrate. The wound strings are tuned to a similar point on the curve (by lower partials), but the upper partials end up flatter than they would in plainwire, creating a larger frequency difference.

Nicely scaled grands do not have this issue. Small pianos do, and it is very audible..



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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: Beemer] #2727314 04/07/18 04:46 PM
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Ian, when I play and listen to a single piano note I can hear many higher partials that are distinct albeit often feint tones that are simultaneously in the air. When I play two notes together that have nearly coincident partials then the higher tone at the pitch of the partial will exhibit beating at a frequency that depends on how close in frequency the two partials are.

I am sure that you can hear it also. It is like looking at a "magic picture" in which there is an identifiable subject that can be obvious only after you have seen it for the first time. It is like something clicks in our brains and then we always see the subject. It is the same with sound and listening to partials but in the aural sense.

Try play a piano note, say A3, but quietly play a partial, say E5 or E6 just before the A3 in order to accustom your mind to hearing at the E5 pitch. Then play A3 but itself and see if you can now hear the E5 as a partial sounding distinctly.

I tune pianos like this all the time, every day. I believe that matching partials from existing tuned notes to that of the new note tuned is a good and accurate way to tune a piano. It becomes second nature, quick and satisfying.

Having said that, we may also simply hear abstract beats when playing intervals but ignoring the sense that the beating is happening at a particular pitch. This is how I may listen to M3rds when doing for example a progression test. I suspect that most people are able to hear this kind of beating but being unaware of where the beating is coming from. In this case it will be interpreted as simply the combination of complex tones producing audible beating, i.e. "combinatronics".

Last edited by Chris Leslie; 04/07/18 05:51 PM.

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Re: Relationship between stretch and human hearing? [Re: KLX-F1] #2727333 04/07/18 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by KLX-F1
BDB, these are colossally idiotic posts. Quit wasting space on the message boards..


Do you really think that there is a significant amount of space lost on my posts?

Quote
Separate resonances do exist in compound sound waves. They're called composite waves! It's not just a convenience offered by Fourier math (though the math is sometimes an estimate recomposition), they also exist in reality! The root of this is how one body, when excited by a dead blow force, almost always has multiple resonant modes. This is what a piano hammer acts as.. and depending on the location of application, the modes can be altered. This is the entire root of strike point in scaling.


Composite of what? There is only one string, so what else makes up what you call a composite wave?

Now if there are two strings, then the two interact with each other and they may beat. How do you explain how they interact and make a beat? Do you have an explanation which is different from mine?

Quote
Look at Chladni patterns on steel plates. Easier to understand in two dimensions..


I do not tune steel plates, although it might be interesting to do sometime. At any rate, I have no idea what you think they are supposed to show.

Quote
Wound strings have lower iH, in general, which exhibits itself more strongly in the higher partials. This is why, when you tune clean 8ves/5ths across a break, the wound strings can exhibit a jump in 3rd/6th beatrate. The wound strings are tuned to a similar point on the curve (by lower partials), but the upper partials end up flatter than they would in plainwire, creating a larger frequency difference.

Nicely scaled grands do not have this issue. Small pianos do, and it is very audible..


I was not the one who said wound strings have more inharmonicity. I asked Jeff why he said that, and he got upset about that.


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