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Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2722209
03/18/18 10:56 AM
03/18/18 10:56 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 920
Portland, OR, USA
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Osho Offline
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Osho  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 920
Portland, OR, USA
I have just one request for VPC-2: same action and pedal mechanism as Novus NV10 smile

Osho


Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + Embertone Walker D Full/Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6

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Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2722221
03/18/18 11:26 AM
03/18/18 11:26 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 151
Vancouver, BC
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NormB Online content
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NormB  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 151
Vancouver, BC
Quote
I would like (for VPC-2) to improve the inertia of the hammer


Yes! Agree! Important!

The leveraged feel of the inertia of the hammers in grand piano actions is one of the things really lacking still in better keyboards like the VPC1.

Last edited by NormB; 03/18/18 11:26 AM.
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: Scherbakov Alex] #2722237
03/18/18 12:30 PM
03/18/18 12:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,547
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content OP
2000 Post Club Member
CyberGene  Online Content OP
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,547
Sofia, Bulgaria
Originally Posted by Scherbakov Alex
It was thought- and how true is that the silicone tail that simulates the suspense feel of the key stroke interacts with the "hammer"? It's just wrong! The hammer at the piano hangs freely. And the very mechanism of mechanics has this particular movement step. Due to such a device, we have a slightly more realistic soft pressing, but we lose in the realism of the free-hanging hammer of VPC-1. I would like (for VPC-2) to improve the inertia of the hammer, its freedom and the movement of the interaction of the silicone brake on the key itself ..To make the hammer a little freer and easier to jump off the key. And so is the simulation of the gravity of the dampers? Which slightly weight the movement from half a keystroke ..


I have pointed out this issue many times (maybe you've read about that in one of my threads. Or we just think the same way). And that’s one of the reasons why I’m creating my own controller from a real grand piano action.

Last edited by CyberGene; 03/18/18 12:37 PM.

Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX, Yamaha NU1X
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2722242
03/18/18 12:48 PM
03/18/18 12:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,547
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content OP
2000 Post Club Member
CyberGene  Online Content OP
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,547
Sofia, Bulgaria
BTW, I spent a lot of time researching how keyboard actions work, looking at patents, etc. And I believe even if escapement notch is removed, it won't allow a free-moving hammer as on a real piano because the triple sensors are three consecutive rubber contact switches and the first two contacts will also slow down the hammer before reaching the third one.

And I believe those actions were designed so that you press the key all the way down for that reason. On a real piano that would have been implemented too by Cristofori a few centuries ago too. However since there are strings, the hammer can't remain on the string because it will not allow it to vibrate. So Cristofori created the jack to detach the hammer from the key just before the string. In other words, a modern digital action without an escapement notch is like an idealized action.


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX, Yamaha NU1X
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
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Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2722271
03/18/18 01:58 PM
03/18/18 01:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 41
Scherbakov Alex Offline
Full Member
Scherbakov Alex  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 41
How could I have overlooked Novus NV10. Now I have a new dream!

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2722282
03/18/18 02:36 PM
03/18/18 02:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 41
Scherbakov Alex Offline
Full Member
Scherbakov Alex  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 41
I would like this action without sounds and brains. Purely midi, to play with Pianoteq.

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2722288
03/18/18 03:02 PM
03/18/18 03:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 24
MA
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labjr Offline
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labjr  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2010
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MA
I wouldn't want to use a fully weighted action for a synth controller.

Re: Kawai VPC2 wish list [Re: CyberGene] #2724865
03/28/18 11:17 AM
03/28/18 11:17 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,090
New York
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trigalg693 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
trigalg693  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,090
New York
Originally Posted by CyberGene
In other words, a modern digital action without an escapement notch is like an idealized action.


I don't think the escapement notch is noticeable when playing a real piano because you cannot reliably expect enough sound to come from the hammer barely kissing the string like that. In practice when you push the key down, the inertia will easily make the jack "activate". The problem with having the hammer stay on the "string" in a digital action is that it doesn't allow the backcheck to catch the hammer on the way down. The Casio GP action basically is a grand piano action with no jack and no backcheck, and their solution is to use a very mushy key stop so that the hammer can shed its momentum against a thick block of felt, but this makes for a very poor feel in the keyboard.

Perhaps the right solution would be to keep the repetition lever, and then add a backcheck that slides forward as the key is pressed so it'll catch the hammer bouncing off the felt block. The only issue would be that there would be more delay on a harder blow because there's no jack, but that could be electronically compensated for. This arrangement would also be really expensive.

As far as I'm concerned, the Kawai keyboard might as well just have a static weight on the other end of the key instead of the pivoting useless hammer, because if you hit the key hard enough for the hammer to come off the capstan, it feels very disconcerting. The change in mechanical advantage on the fake hammer through the keystroke is nice to have, but probably doesn't feel all that different, and it's not like the Kawai keyboard feels all that correct in the first place. If your DIY digital piano doesn't work out as well as you hope, maybe you could just harvest the keys alone and put 60 gram weights at the opposite end, and have the sensors on the keys.

I'd like to see a VPC2 (or a MIDI controller from anyone else) with a plastic action, but with Grand Feel pivot length (a tiny bit shorter would be fine too). The Roland keyboards have a pretty good pivot length compared to the competition, but they need around 2 more inches IMO to make a piano I'd want to practice on daily. As they are, the black keys don't feel quite right, and I need a significant amount of time to adjust to a real piano after practicing on one. I don't think the offset white/black pivots really matter if the black pivots are far enough out, and a folded action would allow that without making the whole package too big.

Last edited by trigalg693; 03/28/18 11:19 AM.
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