Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
9 registered members (DPAfficionado, Testing123, David B, pagirl, jshelton, Dukerbud88, Abdol, 2 invisible), 378 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 8 of 14 1 2 6 7 8 9 10 13 14
Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary?! [Re: Farago] #2723236
03/21/18 03:34 PM
03/21/18 03:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,907
SoCal
Plowboy Offline

2000 Post Club Member
Plowboy  Offline

2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,907
SoCal
Originally Posted by Farago


You wouldn’t get too many. Among the non-readers, we have: ...Danny Elfman...


How does he write those film scores?


Gary
Essex EUP-111 at the mountains
W. Hoffmann T-122 at the beach
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary for classical?! [Re: wr] #2723237
03/21/18 03:34 PM
03/21/18 03:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Farago Offline OP
Full Member
Farago  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Originally Posted by wr
Yes, but if you use the "Ignore" feature, all you see are short little placeholders instead of entire posts. Which, as this thread vividly demonstrates, can make a big difference in the amount of [censored] one needs to scroll through.

Plus, I think that it is likely that, even if you are deliberately avoiding reading somebody's posts, there's still subliminal stuff leaking through as you pass over them if they are displayed. That may not seem to matter much, but why invite the opportunity at all, when the "Ignore" button is such a handy and elegant solution to the issue?

The fact that there's such a prevalent need to curate one's own views to a very small subset of possibilities is...

... well, it's beyond me.

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary for classical?! [Re: Plowboy] #2723238
03/21/18 03:37 PM
03/21/18 03:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Farago Offline OP
Full Member
Farago  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Originally Posted by Plowboy
How does [Danny Elfman] write those film scores?

He had a friend who could read music helping him. You can still find articles and interviews on the web about other composers in the industry calling him a "whistler" (slang for a composer who can't read or write music, so (s)he has to whistle his ideas to other musicians or transcribers).

Apparently it's a similar situation with Hans Zimmer too. He has a studio with like 40 other composers working for him, and (apparently) all he does nowadays is come up with a few themes and harmonies and hands them down to a young noob fresh from the academy to orchestrate it for him.

But I couldn't say for certain. I've never worked with Mr. Zimmer.

I have seen snippets of his online masterclass though, and based on what I've seen, I say: think about the all the sophisticated software available to our great composers today!

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary for classical?! [Re: Farago] #2723239
03/21/18 03:44 PM
03/21/18 03:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,835
Orange County, California
bSharp(C)yclist Offline
1000 Post Club Member
bSharp(C)yclist  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,835
Orange County, California
In the time it took to write all of this, and for everyone to read through and respond, you can have taught yourself to read music laugh


♯ ♮ ♭ ø ° Δ ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
YouTube | SoundCloud
[Linked Image]
Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary for classical?! [Re: Nahum] #2723242
03/21/18 03:47 PM
03/21/18 03:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Farago Offline OP
Full Member
Farago  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Nahum,

Originally Posted by Nahum
This is what I wanted to prove, offering to analyze by ear a work containing 158 bars of music text.

Your ploy failed however. An analysis of a piece is not the same as a score. If you re-read the "hypothetical YouTube video" script, you'll realize that it doesn't accurately describe the actual music being performed. It offers a generalization. Particularly - a generalization that wouldn't interest the > 13M people who love that piece of music.

Originally Posted by Nahum
However, to elevate own weakness to rank of ideology?...

Very interesting sentence. I'd argue that teachers' widespread inabilities to actually improvise and compose worthwhile pieces is a weakness.

What do they do to compensate?

Why, they raise immediate foisting of sheet music to the rank of ideology, of course!

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary?! [Re: Farago] #2723243
03/21/18 03:48 PM
03/21/18 03:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,930
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,930
Canada
Originally Posted by Farago
Before getting into what I've written below, I'm curious to know your opinion on this article advocating reading music right away. To me, the author is out to lunch. Does she make perfect sense to you? Also - be sure to check out all the comments at the bottom of the article!


I read the article. Then I read the comment. Then I watched the video by the person who commented. Later in this thread that person is quoted more directly. This is the video by that commentator:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEDqWx-mzqk&feature=youtu.be

I stopped the video at the point where the boy answers that Do is G - with a queezy feeling in the pit of my stomach from deja vu - starting here: https://youtu.be/UEDqWx-mzqk?t=17
- then the teacher "starts off" the boy by giving him "Do", except he sings D. The child then sings the notation. His Do So Do is in fact Do La Do. That's what the PhD in pedagogy does. This was my world. When I was about 8, a classroom teacher drilled us in movable Do solfege. That became my world for decades. Except at least I sang in tune.

Between the article written by someone with a degree in social work, and the commenter at the end, it's like out of the frying pan into the fire.

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary?! [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2723245
03/21/18 03:54 PM
03/21/18 03:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Farago Offline OP
Full Member
Farago  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
In the time it took to write all of this, and for everyone to read through and respond, you can have taught yourself to read music laugh

I think you're missing the point of this thread! wink

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary?! [Re: Farago] #2723247
03/21/18 03:57 PM
03/21/18 03:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,930
Canada
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,930
Canada
I just watched the rest of the video. The next is G minor, and again the teacher gives the starting note, this time as La - i.e. the Tonic being given as La (also what I got in that public school, putting me into a modal world, and eventually creating problems decades later). Since he gave Do as the pitch D for the piece that was in G major, our pedagogy PhD now gives B for G minor.

So what is being taught in addition to what he intends to teach? He has just finished giving the child the pitch of D for one G, and B for the other G. Neither of them is G. He is also having the child hear that if you have G major and then G minor, the tonic will be different pitches. He is possibly setting up future confusion. Some of what the child is doing may also be rote. He recognized this as G minor way too fast.

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary?! [Re: keystring] #2723248
03/21/18 04:00 PM
03/21/18 04:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Farago Offline OP
Full Member
Farago  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Originally Posted by keystring
That became my world for decades.

Heh! I'm interested in hearing more.

Originally Posted by keystring
Except at least I sang in tune.

Aww come on now! The little guy was shy! wink

Originally Posted by keystring
Between the article written by someone with a degree in social work, and the commenter at the end, it's like out of the frying pan into the fire.

I'm doubled over laughing right now, hahahaha.

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary?! [Re: Farago] #2723249
03/21/18 04:02 PM
03/21/18 04:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,391
New York
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,391
New York
Originally Posted by Farago
Originally Posted by Mark_C
How about you tell us, in 25 words or less

Mark_C,

Two words and a number:

See post 2723217.

OK -- So, all you mean to say, regarding a basic point, is:

"you've seen nothing from me in this thread that suggests that being able to read music is disadvantageous, or that it's "not good". I argue that teachers' techniques to teach beginners are deplorable, because they offer up-front instant gratification, which goes hand-in-hand with insidious smiting of true fluency...."

That's entirely different than the impression that I think you've given. What you're saying here -- that there's nothing disadvantageous about being able to read music, but that most ways of teaching it are bad -- well, that's also controversial (and, I think, clearly exaggerated at best), but far less controversial (and nutty) grin than what you appear to be saying with most of your thousands of words.

So, let me take you at your word, and put this out for all our folks:

He doesn't really mean there's anything negative about knowing how to read music. Presumably he agrees it's good, and worthwhile.
He just thinks the usual ways of teaching it are misguided.

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary?! [Re: keystring] #2723251
03/21/18 04:04 PM
03/21/18 04:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Farago Offline OP
Full Member
Farago  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
keystring,

I must admit that I didn't get into his video, as you have.

I simply agreed wholeheartedly with what he wrote in these four quotes:

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
As a PhD in music education and early childhood music development specialist, I can only deplore most of the techniques we use to teach children to read what’s on the page.

and:

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
Go to YouTube and search for Erroll Garner, and then tell me that it is important that he cannot read music and why that’s a problem for anyone listening to him. He’s one of many.

and:

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
Many music educators will argue that teaching notation is indispensable and they are correct if you want to play in school band or the symphony orchestra, but I’ll tell you that I’d trade a jazz musician any day, or a composer, or any style improviser, for a musician who can only decipher the code of music notation.

and:

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
Just as you are not reading letters, but rather hearing meaning, and understanding the implications of what I’m saying, will you begin to have some comprehension of the problem.

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary?! [Re: Mark_C] #2723252
03/21/18 04:12 PM
03/21/18 04:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Farago Offline OP
Full Member
Farago  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Originally Posted by Mark_C
That's entirely different than the impression that I think you've given.

Oh? I don't think so. A few others seemed to easily grasp what I was saying. Those who grasped it didn't seem to have a problem with my posts, or their length.

Originally Posted by Mark_C
What you're saying here -- that there's nothing disadvantageous about being able to read music, but that most ways of teaching it are bad -- well, that's also controversial (and, I think, clearly exaggerated at best)...

Why don't you take the time to explain your thinking on that?

Originally Posted by Mark_C
... but far less controversial (and nutty) grin than what you appear to be saying with most of your thousands of words.

I'm under the distinct impression that you haven't taken the time to read most of my thousands of words.

Reading is good, you know!

Originally Posted by Mark_C
So, let me take you at your word, and put this out for all our folks

You don't give "all our folks" enough credit. They're plenty capable of deduction on their own. There's no need to reiterate my words.

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary for classical?! [Re: Farago] #2723255
03/21/18 04:25 PM
03/21/18 04:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,654
Warsaw, Poland
Qazsedcft Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Qazsedcft  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,654
Warsaw, Poland
Why are people still replying to this obvious troll? He tried trolling ABF too but lost interest.
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2722797/your-nagging-doubts.html#Post2722797

If you still don't believe me have a look at his profile

Occupation Writer.
Hobbies Sharpening iron with iron.
What brand of piano do you own? I own a mixture of seven Steinway & Sons Model Ds & Bs.
How did you hear about the Piano World Piano Forums? Are you kidding? With well-attuned ears, the bickering is audible from just about anywhere! Kidding ;-)
What other instruments do you play? Your mind.

That should be enough for anyone to decide whether to take Farago's posts seriously.

Just stop feeding the troll.


[Linked Image]
Working on:
Tchaikovsky, The Seasons op. 37 - October
Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary for classical?! [Re: Qazsedcft] #2723256
03/21/18 04:28 PM
03/21/18 04:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Farago Offline OP
Full Member
Farago  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Why are people still replying to this obvious troll? He tried trolling ABF too but lost interest.

yawn ... No, subsequent prospective posters lost interest, because you hijacked the thread.

Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Just stop feeding the troll.

Qazsedcft, see here:

Originally Posted by Farago
Originally Posted by keystring
I responded in the ABF, but with a mile-high "do not feed the troll" [posted by Qazsedcft] afterward there is little chance of a response there.

I agree. That was rather disheartening. frown A few people here seem to misunderstand the difference between a social gadfly and a troll.

Originally Posted by Brett Williams, former Quora Admin
Jonathan Swift was a gadfly. Swift took a well used style (the pamphlet), used its moral prose and wrote A Modest Proposal. Unlike most pamphlets published at the time, Swift argued that a rational approach to solving the Irish famine was to have the Irish eat their children. Swift used a well known tool, and changed one thing to make his point.

A troll would send pictures of dead babies in the post, post pictures of dead babies in the town square, yell loudly about dead babies, post baby slaughter diagrams in the pub and then complain loudly about ‘free speech’ when shown the door.

Gadflies are literate and understand boundaries. Trolls are subliterate, cruel and ignore boundaries.

I think it's fair to say that I'm not a troll, though numerous users in this thread have suggested that I am.

If you've got nothing good to contribute, why are you here? There are a few people in this thread who have said that I've brought up very valid questions, and that I've told very worthwhile stories.

I PMed Zaphod from the other thread, saying:

Originally Posted by Farago in Private Messages
dogperson seems to have a vendetta against me. Sigh.

To which Zaphod said:

Originally Posted by Farago in Private Messages
Ah no worries mate, I'll take you as I find you. I'm new here as well, so I'm not familiar with all the goings on.

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary?! [Re: Farago] #2723259
03/21/18 04:41 PM
03/21/18 04:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,063
W
wr Offline
9000 Post Club Member
wr  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
W

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,063
Originally Posted by Farago
Originally Posted by wr
Yes, but if you use the "Ignore" feature, all you see are short little placeholders instead of entire posts. Which, as this thread vividly demonstrates, can make a big difference in the amount of [censored] one needs to scroll through.

Plus, I think that it is likely that, even if you are deliberately avoiding reading somebody's posts, there's still subliminal stuff leaking through as you pass over them if they are displayed. That may not seem to matter much, but why invite the opportunity at all, when the "Ignore" button is such a handy and elegant solution to the issue?

The fact that there's such a prevalent need to curate one's own views to a very small subset of possibilities is...

... well, it's beyond me.



Frame it in whatever disparaging manner you want, it's still a standard feature in online communities, even in many news site comment sections. I like it.

IMO, life is too short to become mired in every time suck that available online. If you want to think of that as limiting one's own views, fine. I think most adults do give their attention some guidance in this way, even adults who are curious about views other than their own.

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary?! [Re: wr] #2723262
03/21/18 04:49 PM
03/21/18 04:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Farago Offline OP
Full Member
Farago  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Originally Posted by wr
[Blocking people] is still a standard feature in online communities, even in many news site comment sections. I like it.

Me too. Would you believe that I use such a tool? I use it for trolls, not for social gadflies.

Originally Posted by wr
I think most adults do give their attention some guidance in this way, even adults who are curious about views other than their own.

They indeed do. But some people cannot handle arguments that go after their cherished beliefs. See this link.

More to the point here... it would be nice if you contributed to the topic of the thread! I'm genuinely curious about hearing all arguments.

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary?! [Re: Farago] #2723265
03/21/18 05:02 PM
03/21/18 05:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,391
New York
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,391
New York
Originally Posted by Farago
.... There's no need to reiterate my words.

....except to lay bare what you've been obfuscating and sensationalizing with your thousands of other words.

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary?! [Re: Mark_C] #2723269
03/21/18 05:08 PM
03/21/18 05:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Farago Offline OP
Full Member
Farago  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 99
Planet Earth, System of Sol, M...
Originally Posted by Mark_C
obfuscating and sensationalizing

*Sigh*

Am I really doing that though, Mark_C? I haven't had anyone else complain about obfuscation or sensationalization.

Why don't you lay out your thinking behind:

Originally Posted by Mark_C
What you're saying here -- that there's nothing disadvantageous about being able to read music, but that most ways of teaching it are bad -- well, that's also controversial (and, I think, clearly exaggerated at best)...

Why don't you take the time to explain your thinking on that?

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary?! [Re: Farago] #2723271
03/21/18 05:21 PM
03/21/18 05:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,063
W
wr Offline
9000 Post Club Member
wr  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
W

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,063
Originally Posted by Farago

More to the point here... it would be nice if you contributed to the topic of the thread! I'm genuinely curious about hearing all arguments.


I might contribute if I had any idea of what the topic actually is. The subject line mentions "classical" but the first post is all about other genres, which which introduces an insurmountable level of cognitive dissonance for me, right off the bat.

Re: ... But: Is reading *absolutely* necessary?! [Re: Farago] #2723273
03/21/18 05:22 PM
03/21/18 05:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,391
New York
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,391
New York
Originally Posted by Farago
Why don't you take the time to explain your thinking on that?

Because:
-- You're not worth engaging with -- at least not till you clean up your act.
(And getting rid of that taunting face wouldn't hurt any either.)

-- And, what I said is clear enough to everybody else. If you don't get that what you're saying is exaggerated and controversial at best, I can't help it, and it doesn't matter.

Page 8 of 14 1 2 6 7 8 9 10 13 14

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Shop Our Online Store!
Shop Our Store Online
Shop PianoSupplies.com

Did you know Piano World has an online store, and that it's loaded with goodies pianists and music lovers want?
Check it out and place your order.

Special Purchase!
Keyboard and Roses Piano Bench Cushion Keyboard & Roses 14"x30" piano bench cushions Regularly sold for $79 to $100, now only $39. (while supplies last)

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Help with bad key on my keyboard
by heimtun. 06/25/19 09:57 AM
DH Baldwin (Samick) Action Stack/Key
by TimM_980. 06/25/19 01:11 AM
In Praise Of The Original Yamaha AG N3
by cphollis. 06/25/19 12:42 AM
Hammer wear on Kawai console circa 1968
by extravagrant. 06/24/19 11:46 PM
Audio Book: How to Listen to and Understand Great Music
by TX-Bluebonnet. 06/24/19 11:06 PM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics192,698
Posts2,841,834
Members93,715
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1