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Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) #2723074
03/21/18 12:37 AM
03/21/18 12:37 AM
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piano_seeker Offline OP
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Hi everyone, I've been looking at uprights (and have a previous thread on that), but after inevitably trying out a couple of baby grands in the stores, I'm starting to wonder if I ought to move in that direction.

Our living space is modest (city apartment), but we could probably fit a 5'1" if we move a couple of pieces of furniture to another room. We couldn't get it up the stairs, so it would have to be craned in - have yet to determine if this will work.

But, on a recent showroom visit, I was drawn to the S&S concert grand I happened to sit at, and then decided to try the Model S, since it was the smallest grand. The change in the dynamic range was immediately noticeable, and it felt more responsive, more connected to my body. (I'm comparing the Model S to two K-52s and a 1098 in the same store, none of which really impressed me). The evenness of tone was also something else. Was quite smitten by it.

Would be grateful for help with the following questions:
1. I searched for previous threads on the model S, and the posts date from 2010 and 2013. It looked like people had some pretty strong feelings about the Model S. Am wondering if anything's changed in 5 years. I'd greatly appreciate any thoughts on/experiences with this piano please. Apart from helping me evaluate this one, it would also help me have some context and background for other grands I audition.

2. What other small grands should I not miss checking out (in a similar price range)?

3. I'm concerned about a couple of environmental factors: (i) there's no door or wall separating the kitchen, although it's around the corner from where the piano would go, about 15 feet away, but fumes do reach the living area; and (ii) we're on the top floor with no air conditioning and it can get extremely hot up here in the summer. Are these conditions manageable? E.g. with a cover for the instrument and installing a portable air-con unit.

4. Finally, given that I've only just started researching higher end pianos (Larry Fine's book arrived today), and I'm not intimately familiar with the ins and outs of soundboards, pinblocks, and action mechanisms, should I be going for a grand already? I've played piano since I was a child, and have acquired lots of guitars as an adult, so I'm not a total newbie to woods, sound production and tone, but am still learning.

Many thanks in advance for your help.

Last edited by piano_seeker; 03/21/18 12:38 AM.
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Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: piano_seeker] #2723076
03/21/18 12:58 AM
03/21/18 12:58 AM
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Hi piano_seeker,

Check out the following thread: "Steinway Model S New" #2646371, begun on Tue May 23 2017 10:00 AM. The author writes to combat an anti-Steinway and anti-Steinway-Model-S bias on PW, admitting how much s/he loves his/her new New York S&S Model S, despite what everybody says. It was apparently the perfect piano for this person. (Incidentally, I think the OP of that thread left PW soon thereafter, due to an overrepresentation of dilettantes on the forum. It is regrettable, but these things happen.) Best of luck in your search.


"When life gives you a lemonwood Gaveau [piano], make a place for it (or, what is the same thing, find a wealthy foreign collector/enthusiast to sell it to)." --adapted from and inspired by _The Piano Shop on the Left Bank_ by Thad Carhart
Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: piano_seeker] #2723078
03/21/18 01:28 AM
03/21/18 01:28 AM
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Markarian Offline
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I'm a die-hard Steinway fanboy and would get a model S ONLY if the space absolutely called for it. I love the Model S for its size, but I feel like there's few situations where the S would fit where a slightly larger (and more capable and cheaper) grand would fit. Like, if I was Jeff-bezos-in-Monte-Carlo rich and had a yacht where I could only fit something that small I'd love to have an S, etc.

But yeah, people love to take a dump on the S, usually do to its relatively high price point but all things being equal it's a darn fine little piano.


2012 NY Steinway Model B | Kawai MP11 | Nord Stage 3 Compact | Moog Sub 37 | Behringer DeepMind 12 | Sequential Circuits Prophet 6 | Korg Prologue
Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: Markarian] #2723080
03/21/18 01:44 AM
03/21/18 01:44 AM
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piano_seeker Offline OP
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Originally Posted by agraffe
Check out the following thread: "Steinway Model S New" #2646371, begun on Tue May 23 2017 10:00 AM. The author writes to combat an anti-Steinway and anti-Steinway-Model-S bias on PW, admitting how much s/he loves his/her new New York S&S Model S, despite what everybody says. It was apparently the perfect piano for this person. (Incidentally, I think the OP of that thread left PW soon thereafter, due to an overrepresentation of dilettantes on the forum. It is regrettable, but these things happen.) Best of luck in your search.


Thank you. I had missed that thread!

Originally Posted by Markarian
I love the Model S for its size, but I feel like there's few situations where the S would fit where a slightly larger (and more capable and cheaper) grand would fit.


I'll definitely have to look into getting my yacht in the Med kitted out with a grand in the future!

What might these other more capable and cheaper grands be?

Last edited by piano_seeker; 03/21/18 01:45 AM.
Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: agraffe] #2723081
03/21/18 01:51 AM
03/21/18 01:51 AM
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Last edited by Carey; 03/21/18 02:58 AM.

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Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: piano_seeker] #2723082
03/21/18 01:54 AM
03/21/18 01:54 AM
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Markarian Offline
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Can you not squeeze six more inches for a Model M? The selection and inventory of this piano is far above what you will find with the S, new or used. And as far as price, I should ask to clarify if you're looking at new grands obviously the price will favor the S, but on the secondary market the S often commands a bit of a relative premium because of its rarity.

If your room is in ANY way connected to the kitchen you must be very conscientious about using the fume hood, trust me on this >.>

We have strict rules in our house, let's just put it this way.

As far as your climate, it wouldn't hurt to invest in a Dampp-Chaser humidity control system that keeps the piano protected from violent swings in humidity, which are going to most effect the tonewoods of the instrument.

I will say that UNDER the 5'7" mark I've never heard anything quite like an S except a restored Chickering I believe (?) that I played at Ed McMorrow's atelier north of me a few years back. If I had been pinched for space I would have called the movers that day.


2012 NY Steinway Model B | Kawai MP11 | Nord Stage 3 Compact | Moog Sub 37 | Behringer DeepMind 12 | Sequential Circuits Prophet 6 | Korg Prologue
Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: piano_seeker] #2723083
03/21/18 01:55 AM
03/21/18 01:55 AM
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We shouldn't forget individual differences within a model line - this MAY have been a particularly nice S. At the very least, it obviously spoke to the OP in a way the S&S verticals did not. It will be interesting to come back and play this S again after sitting down at some alternatives that folks will likely mention.

Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: piano_seeker] #2723084
03/21/18 02:03 AM
03/21/18 02:03 AM
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The new price of an S will net you a modestly-used Model B or an older but decent Model D. That will buy you two Hailun 218s and a used boxtruck to haul them in. As said, it doesn't seem like much instrument for so much money. But hey, it's your money.


2012 NY Steinway Model B | Kawai MP11 | Nord Stage 3 Compact | Moog Sub 37 | Behringer DeepMind 12 | Sequential Circuits Prophet 6 | Korg Prologue
Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: Markarian] #2723085
03/21/18 02:28 AM
03/21/18 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Markarian
Can you not squeeze six more inches for a Model M?


I asked for a template, so I might check that out. A couple of concerns are: if I ever move back to Europe, having a smaller piano just might make it a little easier; and I have to work out what will fit through the door (of my current apartment).

Originally Posted by Markarian
And as far as price, I should ask to clarify if you're looking at new grands


Yes, I'm currently looking at new ones. I'm not entirely comfortable with going for a used one, with all the due diligence and potential adjustment/work that would involve. I'd be out of my depth too.

Originally Posted by Markarian
As far as your climate, it wouldn't hurt to invest in a Dampp-Chaser humidity control system that keeps the piano protected from violent swings in humidity, which are going to most effect the tonewoods of the instrument.


Sounds like a plan. So temperature differences are not too worrying?

Originally Posted by pwl
It will be interesting to come back and play this S again after sitting down at some alternatives that folks will likely mention.


Yes! I've just been reading about Sauter verticals (since verticals was where this started), and I'm keen to compare the experiences.

Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: piano_seeker] #2723087
03/21/18 03:04 AM
03/21/18 03:04 AM
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Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
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[
Originally Posted by Markarian
And as far as price, I should ask to clarify if you're looking at new grands
Originally Posted by piano-seeker
Yes, I'm currently looking at new ones. I'm not entirely comfortable with going for a used one, with all the due diligence and potential adjustment/work that would involve. I'd be out of my depth too.
New pianos can also require a certain amount of due diligence and potential adjustments/work before they settle in.


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
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Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: piano_seeker] #2723088
03/21/18 03:24 AM
03/21/18 03:24 AM
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Until I got to the post where you said you want new, I was going to suggest a Baldwin M. One inch longer, and most folks seem to think its a better piano. You could get two or three of them for the price of a used S, or just buy one and use the savings to install central HVAC and dehumidifier! wink

Unfortunately, the Baldwin M is no longer in production.


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: piano_seeker] #2723098
03/21/18 04:05 AM
03/21/18 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by piano_seeker


2. What other small grands should I not miss checking out (in a similar price range)?


I cant think of a make that wouldn't be within your budget. I'm not sure how many top brands make a piano quite that small, but I think you should check out all the usual ultra expensive brands (Bosendorfer, Fazioli, C. Bechstein, Steingraeber, the list goes on) and just ask for the smallest grand they make. If you like the Steinway sound, maybe the closest to that sound (The NY Steinway sound) would be a Mason & Hamlin. Estonia gets compared a lot to Steinways(I think it's usually more about quality as opposed to the signature sounds of the respective brands though) and they make a 168 model that is really nice. Shigeru Kawaii, August Forster, Bluthner.... so many to play really, and I know I've missed some.

Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: piano_seeker] #2723104
03/21/18 04:28 AM
03/21/18 04:28 AM
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New York City
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The main objection to a Steinway S is usually the very high price for such a short grand. All grands that size have limitations in the tone quality, especially in the bass. For the 70K price, you can buy(sometimes for much less money) any of the best verticals in the world(Steingraeber, Bechstein, Sauter, Bluthner, Bosendorfer, etc.) or have a choice of many much longer very high quality grands from other makers that do not have the tonal limitations inherent in any very short grand.

So I think you need to decide if you can fit a longer piano(ask for the templates for the models M, O, and A) and consider other makers before you decide. If you decide you love the Steinway sound the best, I would try to get the model M.

I think the the only justification for buying such a small grand at such a high price is if you love the basic Steinway sound much more than other pianos(which you don't know at all since you haven't tried any other grands) and cannot fit a larger piano.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 03/21/18 04:49 AM.
Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: agraffe] #2723123
03/21/18 07:16 AM
03/21/18 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by agraffe
Hi piano_seeker,

Check out the following thread: "Steinway Model S New" #2646371, begun on Tue May 23 2017 10:00 AM. The author writes to combat an anti-Steinway and anti-Steinway-Model-S bias on PW, admitting how much s/he loves his/her new New York S&S Model S, despite what everybody says. It was apparently the perfect piano for this person. (Incidentally, I think the OP of that thread left PW soon thereafter, due to an overrepresentation of dilettantes on the forum. It is regrettable, but these things happen.) Best of luck in your search.

I cannot find that thread. Can you post a link?

Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 BlĂĽthner Model A
Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: agraffe] #2723126
03/21/18 07:48 AM
03/21/18 07:48 AM
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Roy123 Online content
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Originally Posted by agraffe
Hi piano_seeker,

Check out the following thread: "Steinway Model S New" #2646371, begun on Tue May 23 2017 10:00 AM. The author writes to combat an anti-Steinway and anti-Steinway-Model-S bias on PW, admitting how much s/he loves his/her new New York S&S Model S, despite what everybody says. It was apparently the perfect piano for this person. (Incidentally, I think the OP of that thread left PW soon thereafter, due to an overrepresentation of dilettantes on the forum. It is regrettable, but these things happen.) Best of luck in your search.


I must confess that I find your post rather nasty and highly tendentious. I have played a few model S pianos, and for their size, they're quite good. However, for their price, they're quite bad. I guess it boils down to the buyer's particular desires and needs--is size THE consideration or not. If not, for less cost than an S one can buy a longer, much better sounding grand, IMO. Even if size is the top consideration, I think one might consider buying a cheaper grand, with the hope of using the money saved to get a nicer grand when space isn't so tight.

As to your comment about an over representation of dilettantes, I think it would have been much fairer to say that there are many amateurs on piano world. The piano forum is designed for people to discuss pianos, to ask questions, and to share their knowledge. It is not designed only for people who work in the piano industry.

I also question your statement about an anti-Steinway bias on Pianoworld. If anything, I find a pro-Steinway bias, and anyone who deigns to criticize them is often tagged as a Steinway hater. Aren't we all allowed to have our own preferences about piano tone and action? Some people will love the Steinway sound, and some will prefer other pianos. I think it's hard to deny that over the years Steinway has had, shall we way, regrettable quality control, and the many problematic pianos that came out of the Steinway factory have colored people's perception of the brand.

Last edited by Roy123; 03/21/18 07:50 AM.
Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: Beemer] #2723164
03/21/18 10:43 AM
03/21/18 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Beemer

I cannot find that thread. Can you post a link?

Ian


http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2646794/1.html


Gary
Essex EUP-111 at the mountains
W. Hoffmann T-122 at the beach
Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: Plowboy] #2723167
03/21/18 11:08 AM
03/21/18 11:08 AM
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Gary,

Thanks for the link. I'm obviously missing the technique to find a specific post. I tried using the forum search for the number and for Steinway Model S New but nothing was found. How did you find it?

Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 BlĂĽthner Model A
Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: piano_seeker] #2723170
03/21/18 11:16 AM
03/21/18 11:16 AM
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I can help with question 2. Bösendorfer model 155. This info is from their website:

Our Grand Piano 155 has been designed to surprise at 5’1” by mechanical refinement in action, responsiveness of touch and repetition, with key characteristics of bigger Grands such as the 170. Designed in 2012, this Grand Piano soon found many followers who did not like to compromise artistic expression and freedom of articulation in an urban setting. The smallest of all Bösendorfer resonance cases already proves its ability to enchant the audience with an extraordinary spectrum of colours – keeping in mind the actual size of the instrument. Richness in colour, projection of enchanting nuances, repetition speed and responsiveness of touch are key qualities of a Bösendorfer Grand. This is why we have applied the same key characteristics we designed for the bigger Bösendorfer Grand 170.

When I moved from Germany to Brussels a crane had to be used in Brussels and it turned out just fine. It sure made me nervous though.

Best of luck to you / Steve

Last edited by Lakeviewsteve; 03/21/18 11:21 AM.

Bösendorfer 170
Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: Beemer] #2723180
03/21/18 12:08 PM
03/21/18 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Beemer
Gary,

Thanks for the link. I'm obviously missing the technique to find a specific post. I tried using the forum search for the number and for Steinway Model S New but nothing was found. How did you find it?

Ian
Beemer - I found the thread last night by simply googling Steinway Model S New Piano World Forums

I always have better luck googling these threads on the internet than using the PW search function smile


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Re: Steinway Model S (and other baby grands?) [Re: piano_seeker] #2723184
03/21/18 12:21 PM
03/21/18 12:21 PM
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I'm biased towards Baldwins (not the current ones), generally preferring them to the comparably sized Steinway. I like the simplicity of tone of the Baldwins over what I feel is overly textured sound of Steinway. I also find the actions on Baldwins easier to control and have less trouble with notes not speaking when playing quietly. This is totally my opinion, and since you are averse to buying used anyway (the only real option with Baldwin - the new ones that Gibson is selling are Chinese made and have no relationship to the earlier Baldwins) and also prefer Steinway's sound, there is nothing wrong with spending your money on the S. It is your money after all.

But you came here looking for opinions. My opinion is that it would be in your best interest to play some other makes is this size range, both new and used. Who knows, you may find something that you like as much for less money, or even find something you like better.


Peter
1949 Baldwin M
currently working on Brahms op. 10 Ballades, f-minor sonata and 2nd concerto
Mendelssohn Songs Without Words and E minor Prelude and Fugue
whatever strikes my fancy today.
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