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First time chamber music rehearsal #2720857
03/12/18 09:41 PM
03/12/18 09:41 PM
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I'm going to be rehearsing with a string quartet later this month. It's a Mozart piano concerto which WAM reduced as a piano quintet. It's an experienced amateur quartet who play together regularly. Not sure how to approach it as I've never played with other people other some piano duets with my teacher. I'm still practicing my part and certainly not ready for a performance but comfortable enough for a rehearsal. Not sure how to approach this. Let them call the shots?

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Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2720861
03/12/18 10:03 PM
03/12/18 10:03 PM
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I wouldn't say "let them call the shots" -- you're the "leader" (!) but, as with any time we play together with others, I'd say the main thing is, LISTEN. smile

That means, first of all, listen so that you can be sure you're together with them (and that the total sound is working OK).

And it requires this thing, which is maybe the most important, and involves what is probably the most common sin of the pianist:
Be careful not to play so loud that you can't hear them. grin
Don't drown them out.
It's the quickest way not to be popular. ha

Under stress, we might tend to play louder -- and we need to beware of that.
Always be sure you can hear yourself and them, and that you can hear the whole thing as a whole.

But there's a complicating factor:
You're the leader, and you have to give them a strong enough beat to be able to follow you -- but without pounding it out, and hopefully without bogging the music down.
This part of it can be a real challenge.
But it'll be probably be fine if you just keep a steady tempo, and do pretty well with all the rest of the things.

Oh -- one more thing:
Be sure you know exactly when to come in every time.
Make sure you know what your "cues" are -- i.e. what exactly will be going on in the other instruments (in the "orchestra") leading up to each entrance. Go over these places in your mind a lot in your practicing. It's helpful to SING those things sometimes during your practicing (at least 'to yourself,' silently, but even better if you do it out loud). Don't figure that you'll just be able to figure it out when you're playing with them.

And here's a bonus thing, not as critical as the other things but worth its weight in gold if you can do it:

Be aware of the main places where it would be great for you and them to hit a chord or note EXACTLY TOGETHER.
It still might not happen even if you give it the best attention, but it's worth thinking about it and trying.

Examples are the final chord of the "exposition" (if you don't know exactly what that means, just ask), the final note or chord of the cadenza (if there is one), and your last chord of the movement.
(By the way, I'm talking about a typical 1st movement; the specific things may or may not apply to the piece you're playing.)

Good luck!

Last edited by Mark_C; 03/12/18 10:35 PM. Reason: adding italicized part
Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2720866
03/12/18 10:56 PM
03/12/18 10:56 PM
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Thanks Mark for all of these great ideas.

I often tend to play at high volume and to also rush, oddly at the more technically difficult sections. I've been using a Dowani recording which has full speed orchestral accompaniment but also half speed piano accompaniment - similar concept to music minus 1 but better for my practice purposes (I have both). I'm concentrating on keeping consistent time and to keep going if I make mistakes.

As far as coming in on time, the chamber version has an extra single note piano accompaniment where there would ordinarily be rests. I was skipping those parts, but my teacher recommended that I play them so that I'm geared up for where I come in. I've found that to be good advice and am practicing with those parts included.

There are A and B cadenzas in the first movement and I'm practicing both as I'm not sure which I'm going to do. The second movement actually has two separate cadenzas, the first of which have two alternatives - I'm doing the shorter one. Though the longer cadenzas are fancier, I'm thinking they might appreciate my keeping to the shorter ones. I think it's fairly obvious where the 'orchestra' comes in at the end of the cadenzas as Mozart always has those prolonged trills, but I am practicing nodding at the end so they will know when I'm done.

My understanding of the exposition is that it's the primary theme. Sounds like I should also signal them at the end of that so they know where to come in.

I'm not sure if it's typical to just play the whole thing through and then practice the rough spots, or stop as you go along. I suppose I'll defer to them on that as I assume they have a practice routine for playing as a group and my routine is always solo.

I'm actually really looking forward to it as it's energized my practicing. If it goes well, I may seek out more chamber music opportunities.

Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2720868
03/12/18 11:09 PM
03/12/18 11:09 PM
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Actually, that single note piano accompaniment is probably in the original score. There are some conjectures about its meaning: Does it help the pianist conductor keep his place, is it because the pianist is supposed to supply a figured bass, or just a little reinforcement? Nobody is certain! The urtext has sections marked "Unisono," "tasto solo," and there are bass figures in some places, as well.


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Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2720869
03/12/18 11:26 PM
03/12/18 11:26 PM
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Actually it sounds like you've been preparing very well already!!

Originally Posted by jfl
I often tend to play at high volume and to also rush, oddly at the more technically difficult sections.

You've got lots of company.
That's actually typical.

Quote
I've been using a Dowani recording which has full speed orchestral accompaniment but also half speed piano accompaniment - similar concept to music minus 1 but better for my practice purposes (I have both).

Excellent!!

Quote
I'm concentrating on keeping consistent time and to keep going if I make mistakes.

Extra bravo to you for that second thing!!
You're being very smart. You're way ahead of the game.
I don't know if anybody needs to tell you a single other thing! ha

The idea of being able to keep going even when you make a mistake is very important, and I don't know that most of us amateurs give it enough attention in our practicing. It's easy to get in the habit of stopping every time we do something wrong -- and then we're not well enough into the 'reflex' of just keeping going.
Great job there!

Quote
As far as coming in on time, the chamber version has an extra single note piano accompaniment where there would ordinarily be rests. I was skipping those parts, but my teacher recommended that I play them so that I'm geared up for where I come in. I've found that to be good advice and am practicing with those parts included.

Yes. Great advice from your teacher.

Quote
There are A and B cadenzas in the first movement and I'm practicing both as I'm not sure which I'm going to do.

Why not just pick one and know that you're going to do it?
They won't care which one you do.
Believe me. grin

Quote
The second movement actually has two separate cadenzas, the first of which have two alternatives - I'm doing the shorter one. Though the longer cadenzas are fancier, I'm thinking they might appreciate my keeping to the shorter ones.

Probably definitely. ha

Quote
I think it's fairly obvious where the 'orchestra' comes in at the end of the cadenzas as Mozart always has those prolonged trills, but I am practicing nodding at the end so they will know when I'm done.

Great job again!!
BTW Mozart doesn't always have those trills at the end of the cadenzas, but yeah, usually.
And yes, it's important to give some clear cue to the others about when you're going to 'round off' the trill.

Quote
My understanding of the exposition is that it's the primary theme. Sounds like I should also signal them at the end of that so they know where to come in.

I think we're talking about the same place but I'm not sure.
"Primary theme" isn't really the right term for it but we might be talking about the same thing anyway. It's actually the primary and secondary themes plus some additional stuff.
Like, I'll give this example:
In this video, the end of the exposition (i.e. not counting the orchestral intro, which is a whole other exposition in itself) is at 4:49.



BY THE WAY: Many pianists in such a situation would feel like asking the others just to skip their opening intro except for the last few measures, so that you don't have to 'just sit there' and be bored while they play for a couple of minutes.
Don't do that. ha
But be ready that they might offer to do it that way, and then say whatever you feel like.
(I'd tell them that I'd actually like to hear the whole thing if it's OK with them.)

Quote
I'm not sure if it's typical to just play the whole thing through and then practice the rough spots, or stop as you go along. I suppose I'll defer to them on that as I assume they have a practice routine for playing as a group and my routine is always solo.

That's great too. This varies, and it's great if you're flexible about being willing to see how they want to do it.

Last edited by Mark_C; 03/12/18 11:39 PM. Reason: added some near the end
Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2720875
03/13/18 02:12 PM
03/13/18 02:12 PM
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I imagine Mozart would have realized the bass in the orchestral sections. I'm not sure what a modern performer should do since for the most part figured bass realization is a lost art.

Which concerto? I performed the first movement of K. 175 a couple of years with a string quartet. I think it was one of the ones that Mozart also arranged for quartet.

Since its a concerto and you're the soloist you should be the boss for the most part. Mark has provided much good advice.


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Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2720919
03/13/18 05:31 PM
03/13/18 05:31 PM
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Mark- Thanks again for taking the time to send this info! Sounds like I'm on the right track.

I think I might be a bit dense but I'm still not getting the exposition part. I listened to the link around point you mentioned. (BTW I own the complete Bilson/Gardiner boxed set and listen to it often, it's a great one). I'll ask my teacher about that at my next lesson.

Not stopping and restarting when I play a major mistake is a problem for me. I've become so used to doing it that it's hard to break the habit. Playing with the Dowani tracks helps because the accompaniment keeps going no matter what.

I do actually want to hear the string quartet play all of the parts, including the beginning, so I'm not going to request that they skip to where I come in. I'm fairly sure they'll want to practice their parts anyway.

Vid- It's #12 K414 in A major. Here's a nice performance. This one has a double bass, which is unusual but I like the additional low end. Not sure if it's just a duplicate of the cello score. In my case it will just be a standard string quartet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68dSPa-Wdr4&t=1104s

k175 is #5. I think WAM only reduced #12,13,14 for string quartet. Then Hummel did #22,26. And then there have been some modern transcriptions of others. Maybe #5 is one of those?

Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2720926
03/13/18 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jfl
.....I'm still not getting the exposition part. I listened to the link around point you mentioned. (BTW I own the complete Bilson/Gardiner boxed set and listen to it often, it's a great one). I'll ask my teacher about that at my next lesson.

Meanwhile, here's a little guide about all that stuff -- with time references to the terrific recording you just linked (all those players are terrific):

Not counting the intro, which as I said is an exposition in itself, your exposition ends at 4:27.
(There's a place a little bit earlier where Mozart tricks us into thinking it's gonna end there.) grin

The "first theme" begins right where you come in, at 2:00.
The second theme is at 2:38.


edit: Originally, I wrongly called them "primary" and "secondary" themes. Dunno why I did that.
It's simply "first" and "second."

Last edited by Mark_C; 03/13/18 10:27 PM.
Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2720991
03/13/18 10:06 PM
03/13/18 10:06 PM
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Thanks Mark. Those timings helped nail down the concept. There's definitely an thematic end point at (piano) 4:27, (orchestra) 4:39 - followed by a new theme beginning at 4:40. I think I knew that but didn't attach a name to it. I imagine the coordination between the piano and quartet will be practiced at those points so it sounds fluid.

Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2720995
03/13/18 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jfl
T.....followed by a new theme beginning at 4:40.

Not really a 'new theme'; that's what's called the development section.

Here's the usual format for the 1st movement of a Mozart concerto:

Orchestral exposition
Piano-with-orchestra exposition
(usually just considered together as one single exposition)
Development section
Recapitulation, usually said as "recap" (basically re-do of exposition, with some differences)
Cadenza
Coda

Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2721012
03/14/18 12:36 AM
03/14/18 12:36 AM
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I've rehearsed with a Trio (2 violins & a cello) late last year. After 7 rehearsals once a week for just over 2 months we were supposed to put together a few pieces for a performance. We had a guitar teacher guiding us along with a piano in the room. During the 6th rehearsal, a lady in the group decided we would not perform our pieces because our level of satisfaction was too far off.

In the beginning we tried a few do-able pieces by Beethoven, Rimsky-Korsakov & Boccherini. We tried the pieces and got down the the last which was a Boccherini Minuet we could still play. In the end we practiced until the last rehearsal but no performance. We couldn't get everybody to play at an even tempo. And then the tuning issue was too obvious. In the Minuet we played, there were ending notes where all 3 would be playing a C and we ended up with 3 different versions of a C. When it comes to playing a string instrument, tuning is a issue. I do have a keyboard at home and every few notes I'd be checking if my C is in tune. Hard to imagine a cello playing coming to a rehearsal with his C string not tuned properly and he didn't picked it up.

A lot of what we should have been doing was to get a sound recording during the rehearsal to use for practice at home. The group need to run through the pieces a few times and decide for the best tempo and get everybody to practice by the metronome at home.

Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2721129
03/14/18 11:49 AM
03/14/18 11:49 AM
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Having tempo and tuning issues after 7 rehearsals? That's not a very encouraging story. My piano teacher's attending the first rehearsal. She's an experienced chamber musician and knows the string quartet members. I'm guessing that tuning will be sorted at the start and I'm sure she'll be all over me if if my rhythm is off. This quartet plays together frequently so I'm assuming they have their act together rhythmically.

(Mark- thanks for the additional info.)

Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2721239
03/14/18 07:53 PM
03/14/18 07:53 PM
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Hi there,

I have found that playing along with a recording is a pretty good way to find out if I'll be able to hang with the band or not. It has saved me from so many horrible first rehearsals. Things that used to happen in horrible first rehearsals now happen in the privacy of my own home!

If you want to do this a lot, in the age of Youtube and Spotify it's pretty easy to find multiple recordings of a piece and try playing with different ones.


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Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2723438
03/22/18 08:04 AM
03/22/18 08:04 AM
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We had our first rehearsal last night. It was very educational for me as a first exposure to playing with others and I think it went well overall. We're planning to reconvene later in the spring and move on to the 3rd movement (hopefully polishing up 1 and 2 as well).

Here's a link to a run-through we did of the first movement. It's obviously rather rough and everybody (including the piano) had some tuning issues. I also had a page turning problem during the cadenza that threw me off - but that's what rehearsals are all about.

https://soundcloud.com/user-397334635/piano-concerto-no-12-k414-a-major-1st-movement

Piano is often a solo endeavor and it's a lot of fun playing with other people.

Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2723514
03/22/18 12:29 PM
03/22/18 12:29 PM
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Good job! You did prepare well.
Indeed it's a bit hard to listen to because of the intonation issues, including to some extent the piano not being in real good tune but mainly the intonation of the string players. It's a common problem with string players. The one time I had a chance to play with an orchestra, well, it wasn't too bad, because, as the conductor said afterwards, "Fortunately the winds were blowing their brains out." grin

BTW you did 'push the tempo' a bit when you entered; we might even say you rushed. But I think your instinct was good, because the intro was draggy.

Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2723517
03/22/18 12:45 PM
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I've been playing in a trio fro years, and you really do need to play regularly with people to get a feel of how they view the music.

If you play too loudly, everyone else plays too loudly, and the music suffers. Better play a little slower and shape the music so that everyone has a very clear idea of where the first beat of every bar is. It helps anyone who falls off get back on again. It's not unknown to play ten or twenty bars before you realise that you're all playing different bars at the same time - particularly with JSBach. Working at a small representative section of the piece will provide a template for how to play the rest of the piece, and will be much more productive in the long run.

That said, well done for preparing in advance - but don't forget to put on your listening ears. Really good chamber music can be as good if not better than sex.


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Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: Fareham] #2723522
03/22/18 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Fareham
....Really good chamber music can be as good if not better than sex.

Discuss. grin

Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2723533
03/22/18 01:44 PM
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Thanks for the reviews. So it's intonation and not tuning? I suppose that's a practice issue that pianists don't have to deal with, though we have our own set of tone problems as I demonstrated. When we started rehearsing, there was a lot of discussion on tempo and metronome markings. We were playing a bit slower than I was used to and I was roundly (and rightfully) criticized for rushing. I ended up closing the lid on the piano so I could better hear the strings and that helped quite a bit. I still had to continuously remind myself to not speed up. I also had some difficulties controlling dynamics. It's a larger Yamaha grand and was in tune when I tried it two weeks ago, but not yesterday. I practice on a midi keyboard at home and have had some difficulties adjusting to the acoustic grands at the school. Especially playing softly, which my digital does very easily. Anyway, the quartet expressed interest in performing the concerto in a recital later this year, so there will be more rehearsals. Fun!

Re: First time chamber music rehearsal [Re: jfl] #2723583
03/22/18 04:49 PM
03/22/18 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jfl
Thanks for the reviews. So it's intonation and not tuning?

For the string instruments, yes.
I mean, it ain't easy if the instrument isn't decently tuned to begin with grin but in general, when you hear string instruments being sour, it's not the tuning but the player's intonation.


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