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Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones #2719201
03/05/18 05:34 PM
03/05/18 05:34 PM
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Manolito Mystiq Offline OP
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Today I received my new Roland FP-90 (white). Since my piano lessons last September I felt that my previous FP-4F was making it hard for me to work with dynamics and to play relaxed. Now, I really understand why it was so troubling. I did check the FP-90 in stores, but obviously it is different when you have your instrument at home.

My first impressions now at home were that somehow the piano sounded muffled or too bassy. With the Soundboard Type setting at 5 (1 is default) in Piano Designer, I could make it brighter, making it sound close to how my FP-4F sounds.

Still, the overall sound is different, which is understandable. However, I really need to get used to the overtones. For instance, playing the Chopin Prelude in C minor (Op. 28, No. 20), whenever I play Cm, I hear a very strong B6 overtone, so much that it is uncomfortable. When I only play a C2, I hear the B5 overtone.

When I play a G2, I also get that B5 overtone and even though it is expected because it is a closer overtone to the fundamental, it is quite pronounced.

If I disable the resonance parameters (Duplex Scale, Full Scale String Res., Cabinet Resonance, etc.) it won’t change that overtone B5 over C2. It sounds the same everytime as if it is a sample.

Indeed, I need to get used to this new Roland, but now, the overtones appear to be very out of balance to me. I have a music workstation PC with Studio One 3, Kontakt 5, and some EastWest libraries. I could use something like Pianoteq, but then it is a bit of a pity to only use the FP as a MIDI controller.

Before my purchase, I tried many different digital pianos. Comfortable and very responsive piano action was the main priority (as far as I know, the FP-4F was notorious for its sluggish keys). Another priority was of course sound. I tried Roland, Korg, Yamaha, Nord, Kawai, Casio, and only Kawai seemed like another good option. I tried the MP7.


So in short, the FP-90:

1. has a significant better key-action compared to my previous FP-4F—it is far more responsive;
2. has a more complex but to me uncomfortable overtone system—is there anything I could do?;
3. can be used very well as a MIDI controller for my software libraries—but are there alternatives that are also a good option because of good onboard (piano) sounds?


I got the FP-90 for €1570. I use the stand designed for the FP-4F (so I cannot connect the stand with screws, but it sits on top of it (with cushioned sticker in between to prevent scratching). I have 60 days to try the piano or return it. The only alternative I see now is a Kawai such as the ES8, but I can only order it from outside the Netherlands (Thomann). I could buy that one and try both for some time.

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Re: Roland FP90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2719205
03/05/18 05:52 PM
03/05/18 05:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,524
Nashville, Tennessee
PianoZac Offline
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In my opinion the FP-90 can never be tuned to sound organic. It behaves like an acoustic instrument but the sound is not “real” sounding. And that can only be determined sitting in front of the instrument in person quite frankly. I’m not sure if the ES8 is a better overall instrument as it is a couple years old now, but the sound is miles ahead. Plus the action is quite good-on par with the FP90. Maybe try what you said and buy both and have them together to go back and forth. It seems a few users in here have switched from the ES8 to FP90 so check them out for yourself if possible.


Kawai MP7SE
Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2719221
03/05/18 08:29 PM
03/05/18 08:29 PM
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Manolito Mystiq Offline OP
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Hey PianoZac,

I see you have the MP7SE. I do not think I will use my piano(s) outside my home. I did it just one time with my FP-4F. So, an upright model might be a better option. But since all Rolands currently have the same technology, I do not think it will be a solution to the problem. I might try a second-handed FP-7F, because as far as I can remember, it was close to the 4F, but with far better keyboard action (though different from the current PHA-50). But then, the 7F is 7 years old.

I am also looking at Kawai’s CA series. I think at least the CA58 seems like a good option (because the CA48 does not have line-outputs).

The CA98 and CA78 seem practically the same except for the added Onky technology for the CA98. It is a much higher priced piano, but I will look into it.

Roland FP-90: €2100 [with stand and pedals for a fair comparison] (+PHA-50 keyboard);
Roland HP-605: €2550 (-same SuperNatural technology);
Kawai CA58: €2400 (+Grand Feel Compact, +concert grand piano sounds);
Kawai CA78: €2850 (+Grand Feel II, +HiFi speaker output);
Kawai CA98: €3500 (+Onkyo amplification);

As mentioned earlier, Kawai was the only DP other than Roland that both sounded and played well enough for me for it to be interesting. I tried so many Yamahas, but was never satisfied. While I appreciated the Nord pianos for their sounds and for their responsive, light action, they don’t feel like a piano would. I have no interested in Korg at all. I actually preferred Casio over Korg—when it comes to the piano sound.

Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2719228
03/05/18 09:07 PM
03/05/18 09:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,524
Nashville, Tennessee
PianoZac Offline
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Yeah I think if you could swing it, give the CA58 a try. Looks to be an excellent package and the GF Compact is a step above the plastic actions out there, including the RHIII in my MP7SE. I contemplated getting the CA58 when it was introduced I believe last month, but I needed something very portable.

Last edited by PianoZac; 03/05/18 09:07 PM.

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Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2719258
03/05/18 11:38 PM
03/05/18 11:38 PM
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Looks like you went the same route I did, my white FP-90 arrived a few days ago! smile

I very much like the expressiveness of the keys!

I am actually aiming to use mine mostly as a MIDI controller, I preferred the sounds of sampled vs. modeled as well, but didn't have a chance to try an ES8 and wanted the best key feel I could get as a higher priority vs. the built in sounds. I suppose I could've gone for the RD-2000 if I wanted a ton of inbuilt sounds with more tweaking ability as well as the great keybed, but I'm happy enough with my decision. I like the aesthetics, I like having speakers built in, and I like the space to plunk what I want atop it rather than all the buttons.


Roland FP-90 - Touchkeys - TEC BC - MIDI Expression
Kontakt - Arturia Piano V - Sonivox Eighty-Eight - Spitfire Symphony Orchestra

whitepianos.blogspot.com
Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2719260
03/06/18 12:00 AM
03/06/18 12:00 AM
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Beakybird Offline
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You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The FP90 sounds good for banging around on, but it's farther away than most competitors at sounding like a real piano. But it does make a great controller. I would perform with the internal sounds. It took weeks for me to fatigue of the FP90's piano sounds, and most audiences would think it sounds fine.


Roland FP-90; Yamaha MX49; Pianoteq 5 + most add-ons; 2 Yamaha HS8s; ATH-M50X; Focusrite Saffire 2i2; For performing: Yamaha PSR-S970; FBT Maxx 2a's, Crowne Headset Mic.
Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2719276
03/06/18 02:40 AM
03/06/18 02:40 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,355
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content
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Kawai James  Online Content
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Posts: 14,355
Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello Manolito Mystiq,

The FP90 is an excellent digital piano, so I would be inclined to stick with the instrument and see if you warm to its modelled sound engine.
However, if you do have the opportunity to play-test or check an ES8 (ideally alongside the FP90), this would obviously allow the closest comparison.
Speaking of comparisons, UK store Bonners Music recently uploaded a nice video comparing the ES8, FP90, and Yamaha P255, which I posted in a thread here.

On a separate note, just to clarify your summary of the current CAx8 series models:

Originally Posted by Manolito Mystiq
The CA98 and CA78 seem practically the same except for the added Onky technology for the CA98. It is a much higher priced piano, but I will look into it.

Roland FP-90: €2100 [with stand and pedals for a fair comparison] (+PHA-50 keyboard);
Roland HP-605: €2550 (-same SuperNatural technology);
Kawai CA58: €2400 (+Grand Feel Compact, +concert grand piano sounds);
Kawai CA78: €2850 (+Grand Feel II, +HiFi speaker output);
Kawai CA98: €3500 (+Onkyo amplification);


Please note that the CA98 and CA78 both feature the same premium audio technology with Onkyo hardware etc. However, only the CA98 features an Onkyo speaker system (Onkyo speaker drivers + soundboard with Onkyo actuators).

To see a full side-by-side comparison (albeit a little squashed...something I need to improve), of the CAx8 specifications, please refer to this page. The CA98 product page includes a detailed explanation about the instrument's Onkyo-powered speaker system also.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2719277
03/06/18 02:59 AM
03/06/18 02:59 AM
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PBL Offline
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Originally Posted by Manolito Mystiq
Roland FP-90: €2100 [with stand and pedals for a fair comparison] (+PHA-50 keyboard);
Roland HP-605: €2550 (-same SuperNatural technology);
Kawai CA58: €2400 (+Grand Feel Compact, +concert grand piano sounds);
Kawai CA78: €2850 (+Grand Feel II, +HiFi speaker output);
Kawai CA98: €3500 (+Onkyo amplification).

Maybe you can also consider the CA67 in that list. Some stores still stock it and sell it cheaper than the CA58. Apart from bluetooth, the CA67 should be superior to the CA58.

Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2719372
03/06/18 10:58 AM
03/06/18 10:58 AM
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Manolito Mystiq Offline OP
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Thank you for that suggestion. For €2000, that seems like a pretty good deal.

At the moment, I really like the responsiveness. I practice Grieg’s Notturno Op. 54. No. 4, and I have far more control over the dynamics. I do not have to force my way in the keys that I usually do on the FP-4F. The overtones are still bothering me, though. They are too pronounced and as far as I can tell unbalanced.

I main, I hold a C chord, but I really get a Cmaj7. Holding a Cm chord gives me a Cmmaj7.

Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2719593
03/07/18 07:30 AM
03/07/18 07:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,023
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Doug M.  Offline
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Originally Posted by Manolito Mystiq
I did check the FP-90 in stores, but obviously it is different when you have your instrument at home.


No, sound difference will be only different due to room acoustics---that should not effect specific sound tone characteristics. The excessively prominent over-tones (if inherent to the instrument) should have been as noticeable in store.
Perhaps the store modified the display model to help sell it e.g., tweaked the settings.

Another question: did you update the instruments software?

I know that the FP-90 is meant as a plug and play modeled piano with less on-board tweaking: there is software you can download which gives you more parameters!
Piano designer

Also, this is a new instrument: one should consider if there is a fault if the overtone prominence is so bad.

Last edited by Doug M.; 03/07/18 07:34 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Doug M.] #2719820
03/08/18 10:17 AM
03/08/18 10:17 AM
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Manolito Mystiq Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Doug M.
No, sound difference will be only different due to room acoustics---that should not effect specific sound tone characteristics. The excessively prominent over-tones (if inherent to the instrument) should have been as noticeable in store.


Correct, I was not clear with what I meant: that at home, I can check for hours and hours and check a lot of different repertoire. After a while, I thought, what is that humming. I know a real piano creates overtones and some that are dissonant to the chord, but the balance seems off. Today, I checked the RP-601, the LX-17, the FP-90, and the FP-30. All had the same overtone thing, except for the FP-30, because the FP-30 is, as far as I know, not modeled but sampled (or quasi-modeled like the FP-4F I have right now).

I checked some FP-90 videos and I am not the only one who seems to prefer the SuperNatural sampling over the SuperNatural modeling. Yes, there are fewer options for tweakability, but the artificiality is less pronounced—at least to me, because I know that others really prefer the SuperNatural modeling sound.

I still have some time to get used to the sound—after all, that might jus be it: getting used to a new sound—or return it. I will try to see if I can tweak it a little with Piano Designer. For instance, I really prefer Soundboard Type 5 over Type 1.

At least I will check out some Kawais tomorrow.

Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2719872
03/08/18 03:49 PM
03/08/18 03:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,178
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peterws Offline
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Anybody thought this might be aliquot strings? I believe the Roland will have this feature. Not every acoustic has this, so next time you try out a 9ft 6 Bluthner . . . . . let us know what you hear!


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2719987
03/09/18 07:35 AM
03/09/18 07:35 AM
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Manolito Mystiq Offline OP
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Well, it seems that I found a solution. I just changed the character of the G3 key. The default has that pronounced B5 on top.

I will still try the ES8, because though this PHA-50 keybed is much more responsive than the Ivory Feel-G with Escapement on the FP-4F, it also is a bit spongy and heavy. The black keys are clearly thicker and I need to adjust to it (I make quite some mistakes with some of my repertoire because I stumble over the black keys), but I think that just needs time to get used to.

Otherwise I might just keep the FP-90 for now. It is from my experience the only digitial piano in this price range with a good responsive keybed and at least a convincing sound. I was surprised with some tweaking (and a setting in the library of the iOS app) how it was like having the school’s Steinway in my room.

Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2719993
03/09/18 07:53 AM
03/09/18 07:53 AM
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puremusic Offline
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I'll be interested to hear how you think the ES8 compares as well as any further adjustments you make with the FP-90. I prefer a light touch myself, and recall one reviewer saying the FP-90 was lighter than he was accustomed to.

Yes it definitely helps to delve into the piano designer with this piano to set up the sound. smile I just fiddled with it today too and am more pleased.

It strikes me as a little funny that the FP-90 is considered a portable piano at 50+ lbs. Coming from an all plastic keyboard that was about 5 lbs. I feel it's more like a shiftable piano than a portable piano, and only with special care. I guess that's how it is with pianos like these, as long as they don't come with legs they're "portable" even if they weigh a ton.


Roland FP-90 - Touchkeys - TEC BC - MIDI Expression
Kontakt - Arturia Piano V - Sonivox Eighty-Eight - Spitfire Symphony Orchestra

whitepianos.blogspot.com
Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2720029
03/09/18 09:48 AM
03/09/18 09:48 AM
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Manolito Mystiq Offline OP
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I thought my FP-4F was quite heavy for a portable already, but now I consider it to be super light. The ES8 is a bit lighter. Next week, I am going to check some Kawai digital pianos out.

Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2720085
03/09/18 12:52 PM
03/09/18 12:52 PM
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aph123 Offline
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this video seems relevant;


Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2720205
03/10/18 03:03 AM
03/10/18 03:03 AM
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Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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The lesson I take from this:

. . . If you have one of those DP's, and you can't make it sound good,
. . . it's not the piano's fault.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: Manolito Mystiq] #2720208
03/10/18 03:14 AM
03/10/18 03:14 AM
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puremusic Offline
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Can I buy this guy's piano skills instead of the piano? smile


Roland FP-90 - Touchkeys - TEC BC - MIDI Expression
Kontakt - Arturia Piano V - Sonivox Eighty-Eight - Spitfire Symphony Orchestra

whitepianos.blogspot.com
Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: puremusic] #2720237
03/10/18 07:57 AM
03/10/18 07:57 AM
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Doug M. Offline
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Doug M.  Offline
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Originally Posted by puremusic
Can I buy this guy's piano skills instead of the piano? smile

You can get that good or better...
Costs 3 things:
1) 5-10 thousand hours of practice
2) What ever you need to pay for lessons
3) Sacrifices


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Roland FP-90: unbalanced overtones [Re: puremusic] #2720238
03/10/18 07:59 AM
03/10/18 07:59 AM
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Doug M. Offline
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Doug M.  Offline
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Originally Posted by puremusic
I'll be interested to hear how you think the ES8 compares as well as any further adjustments you make with the FP-90. I prefer a light touch myself, and recall one reviewer saying the FP-90 was lighter than he was accustomed to.

Yes it definitely helps to delve into the piano designer with this piano to set up the sound. smile I just fiddled with it today too and am more pleased.

It strikes me as a little funny that the FP-90 is considered a portable piano at 50+ lbs. Coming from an all plastic keyboard that was about 5 lbs. I feel it's more like a shiftable piano than a portable piano, and only with special care. I guess that's how it is with pianos like these, as long as they don't come with legs they're "portable" even if they weigh a ton.



Portable doesn't imply light weight.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand

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