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Kawai VPC1 or wait? #2718977
03/05/18 01:18 AM
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Omalikular Offline OP
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I was saving my money for a vintage synthesizer, but the market is getting way over inflated so I just decided I'll get the Arturia collection and upgrade my controller.

I'm thinking of getting the Kawai VPC1, but it's getting long in the tooth. I don't want to get it if an updated model is around the corner.
I even got my desk built with enough clearance for the VPC1 haha.

Any news/predictions on a newer model coming around? If not I may be inclined to order one, otherwise I can wait.

Wish we could get an announcement if anything has at least been started, but you never know.


You can never have enough instruments but you can never have enough time.
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Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2718983
03/05/18 02:20 AM
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What will you use the VPC1 to control? If the VPC1 is to be used as a controller for synths in the Arturia collection there are better options.

The question of when Kawai will release an upgrade for the VPC1 has been discussed extensively. It remains a mystery. In the meantime other manufacturers have brought to the market keyboards with advanced internal sounds, actions that many people find acceptable and plenty of controller capabilities.

If I was in the market for a controller, I would not consider the VPC1 nor would I wait and wait for an upgrade. IMO, Kawai has allowed the VPC1 to go stale, it seems that particular retail space is not a priority for Kawai.

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Rally] #2718985
03/05/18 02:26 AM
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I have a controller for synths already. The VPC1 is mostly for having a better piano keyboard. I work mostly at a PC so portability isn't needed. What controllers would be superior to the VPC1 nowadays?


You can never have enough instruments but you can never have enough time.
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2718986
03/05/18 02:45 AM
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I don't know when (or if) Kawai will bring out a replacement for the VPC ...
Originally Posted by Omalikular
I'm thinking of getting the Kawai VPC1, but it's getting long in the tooth. I don't want to get it if an updated model is around the corner.
... but if I were buying a piano today I'd likely get (or consider) the VPC.

I don't like the internal sounds of any of these digital pianos so I use piano software. That's why the VPC makes sense for me.

I don't especially like the look and finish, but otherwise the VPC would serve my needs.

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2718988
03/05/18 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Omalikular
What controllers would be superior to the VPC1 nowadays?


Indeed, curious minds would like to know. wink


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2718997
03/05/18 04:10 AM
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Honestly, I wouldn't worry so much.
The differences between the Kawai wooden actions are relatively subtle.

GF1 is a little lighter than GF2 & RM3 Grand II (VPC action). I have read positive voices, regarding that and I have read from people that dislike it.
They changed the texture of the black keys, again: some like it, some don't.

Generally, I don't think you will see GF1 or GF2 in a VPC anytime soon, they'll probably want to reserve those for their more expensive top of the line products.

You could see the new GF-C in a VPC 2 at some point but the difference between RM3-GRand II and GF-C would be smaller than the difference between RM3 and GF2.

Bottom line: I don't think there is any technical reason to dismiss the VPC just because it is a few years old. The main driver of new products is usually software based and that doesn't apply to the VPC, because you can update it's software and tone generation independently.

I did extensive research before buying mine and I don't know of any controller that is considered "better".
There is the MP11SE which has Grad Feel 1 but it's 1K more expensive and a fully fledged stage piano.

Last edited by Granyala; 03/05/18 04:12 AM.

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VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Kawai James] #2719020
03/05/18 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Omalikular
What controllers would be superior to the VPC1 nowadays?


Indeed, curious minds would like to know. wink


For pure piano playing, no controller would be superior to the VPC1!

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2719082
03/05/18 01:27 PM
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To be fair, he didn't say superior, he simply said better. If we're looking into "vintage synth", as the OP stated, then I could agree that you don't need a real piano action.

As to the point on VPC1 vs VPC2, outside of portability (which it's a non issue in this case), I don't know what you might want from a piano controller that VPC1 does not offer, without going full hybrid.

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Pete14] #2719083
03/05/18 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
For pure piano playing, no controller would be superior to the VPC1


Superior to the Kawai VPC1 are...

Kawai MP11SE - longer Grand Feel action, pitch / mod wheels, MIDI assignable controller sliders / knobs, ext footswitches, can transmit program changes and controller data, etc. plus 40 internal sounds & features.

Ravenworks Studio Model I - $5499 custom upgraded VPC1

Ravenworks Studio Model II - $5799 custom upgraded VPC1

Alpha Pianos Tour - 88 key full Renner action with Kluge keysticks (as used for Steinway / Bosendorfer, etc.)

Alpha Pianos Studio - £39,755 - 88 key full Renner action with Kluge keysticks in upright cabinet

Alpha Pianos Grand - 88 key or 97 key full Renner action with Kluge keysticks in baby grand cabinet

Steinway D with Spirio or other MIDI retrofit...

The Kawai VPC1 was designed like a phoenix from the discontinued Kawai MP10 model taking the same metalwork case body and RM3 action, thus without too much re-tooling at the factory they could discontinue the MP10 and start producing the VPC1.
After this happened, later the same year, they launched the new MP11 with different, deeper case style for the longer Grand Feel action. That was the top model for a few years until the recently released MP11SE with the same original Grand Feel action in nearly identical case, except for end cheeks.
Even if they had switched to the slightly newer GF2 action in the MP11SE, (probably saving that for the upcoming MP12), the metal case size still doesn't need to change much, so it's more likely they'll keep on manufacturing that MP11SE case shape for the MP12 with same GF or GF2 size action, rather than abandon the MP11SE size body metalwork in order to totally re-tool production and make something completely different for the flagship MP model - thereby retiring the old MP11 style case from MP series production and thus letting its production line morph into a hypothetical replacement VPC2 model containing Grand Feel action which is what everybody is hoping for.

That may happen one day, but unlikely for several years now because...

1.) Kawai only recently released the MP11SE, so that will likely be around another 3 years before next MP model is due.

2.) There isn't any bigger action in Kawai's portfolio than GF or GF2 (almost identical size) available for flagship MP12 stage piano (except the massive Millenium action in the Novus will obviously never fit into a portable stage piano for the mass market!) so MP12 casework isn't likely to need changing, because the upgrade to GF2 is the next logical step for them, not a jump to something else which doesn't even exist yet.

3.) We're waiting for the MP11SE life-cycle to finish, and then the next MP12 (maybe Jan 2020) is likely to have GF2, and we've got to wait for that to come and go through it's life-cycle (maybe 2023) before there's much chance they'll ditch the current new style MP11SE casework in favour of something else and finally the VPC2 can inherit that and go into production.

3.) They wouldn't make a new VPC2 with same RM3 action as VPC1 because it has no other features to offer than its wooden action - very spartan, minimalist design - so there'd be no real marketable change for any new model with the same RM3 action. What would be different? Only upgrading the action to Grand Feel or GF2 would make any worthwhile difference to the VPC's appeal, if they stick to the same beautiful minimalist aesthetic design philosophy, and I think they will. (Although Kawai could add extra handy features like USB audio interface built in with XLR outs... and call it VPC1X.) The VPC series is a fairly niche product aimed solely at software piano users, so the market isn't as big as for the MP models. Many software piano players still do gigs in the real world and prefer a usable stage piano than a VPC. Few can afford to buy both.

4.) The best chance of a case re-design for the MP12 (with the knock-on effect of giving us a new VPC2) would be if Kawai incorporated the 5 inch colour LCD touchscreen from the Novus (and it's rendering engine technology) into the next MP12 design. However if they did that, they would be undermining potential sales of their £7999 Novus NV10 - which itself only just came out - for the sake of a c£2500 stage piano, so they'll probably wait a few years for NV10 to sell before creating any rival product with same technology for far less money.
Therefore it'll either be ages and ages before the amazing MP12 comes out with colour touchscreen and rendering engine, or an insipid MP12 will come out a few years sooner without any big quantum leaps forward in features - perhaps just a few extra organ sounds, 2 front panel headphone jacks, GF2 action and a couple more assignable sliders, and be another tragic disappointment! - like every other "flagship" MP model since the MP8 and MP8ii.

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait?
Bottom line is there almost certainly won't be a physical re-design VPC2 model with GF /GF2 action for at least 2 or 3 years until the MP11SE model is discontinued, and only then, if the replacement MP12 has significantly different hardware case to warrant re-tooling everything for that production, leaving the existing MP11SE metal case moulds available to become adapted into VPC2 production. Maybe that's why Kawai put the nicer VPC style end cheeks on the MP11SE, as it makes that transition easier!

So it's better not to wait for potential new products that MIGHT come out in several years, because if you can afford to have the best products on the market today and enjoy them now, you'll probably make better progress as a pianist in the intervening years of your life than carrying on with something older / plasticky / rubbish you're already finding shortcomings with.

If you're seriously waiting for Kawai to release the ultimate dream MP model with AES/EBU digital out, "Grand Feel 3" (not compact) wood action without the nasty ridged black notes, full 256 preset sound bank restored, at least 256 note polyphony, external USB DAC audio interface built in, ability to load external user multisamples in SFZ format onto a 1TB SSD drive built in, or host VST plugins from an internal operating system that can read Kontakt NKI format under licence in conjunction with Native Instruments, and has a couple of built in XLR mic preamp inputs on the back panel (for singing pianists) with full 32 bit float digital channel strip processing for the vocals built in, including variable HPF, soft knee compressor, 5 band parametric EQ, and parellel path for digital reverb, plus main and subwoofer outputs with crossover facilities onboard, and 97 keys so you can play Bosendorfer soft-synths correctly, and an 11 inch LCD touchscreen top panel at 1920x1080 resolution with external HDMI input...
...if you're waiting for Kawai to release THAT you might be waiting a long, long, long, long time!!!
In fact, even Methuselah would probably lose patience and say "Life's too short."

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2719103
03/05/18 02:42 PM
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What's kept me from purchasing a VPC1 is something some might consider silly: The sloping top.

My MIDI controller (currently Roland A-88) is in a tight space and I can't move it forward to accommodate the extra depth of the VPC1. I use the small flat space on top of the A-88 for LED piano lamps, metronome, trackball, pens, and have a stable surface behind the A-88 for music rack, monitor, PC peripherals. Works great but I don't particularly like the action of the A-88. If Kawai did away with that sloped top, I'd have enough room for everything behind the keys with that wide deck. I've seen pictures where people have put rubber pads on top to try to create a flat surface, but that's not very secure. I'm still scratching my head why Kawai felt this was a good design for what otherwise seems an excellent MIDI controller. I've seen full cabinets for them, but that wouldn't work for me. I only want a flat surface on top, behind the keys.

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2719155
03/05/18 04:15 PM
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Some serious insight from this thread. Not long ago I was debating just getting optical MIDI installed on my Rhodes and calling it good to save some space. Don't know if I'd be happy with that though, the Rhodes action is not very piano feeling.


You can never have enough instruments but you can never have enough time.
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2719163
03/05/18 04:34 PM
03/05/18 04:34 PM
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Yes, the slope is a problem. But it wouldn't take much ingenuity to devise a solution.

I wish it had one of Kawai's top actions. But even as it is it's better than what I have.

And since my piano no longer lives in the living room, the furniture factor is no longer relevant.

The only remaining item ... it's not very good looking. It would do better with a matte finish. I like a polished finish, but it just doesn't look good on the VPC.

Still, if I were in need of a new piano I'd jump on the VPC for sure.

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2719171
03/05/18 05:08 PM
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Since the VPC doesn't have a key cover, mine is hidden away under a towel when I am not playing (I plan on getting some nicer looking cloth in the future).

Maybe you could eliminate the aesthetic factor that way? laugh


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: propianist] #2719174
03/05/18 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by propianist

2.) There isn't any bigger action in Kawai's portfolio than GF or GF2 (almost identical size) available for flagship MP12 stage piano (except the massive Millenium action in the Novus will obviously never fit into a portable stage piano for the mass market!) so MP12 casework isn't likely to need changing, because the upgrade to GF2 is the next logical step for them, not a jump to something else which doesn't even exist yet.


So, Kawai James has stated that in desigining the MP11SE, they determined that the slight differences in the action (the hammer weight positioning and shape) would actually hit the frame, which is why they kept the action the GF1. On opening my MP11, I suspect (and I'm only guessing here as I don't have a GF2 to compare measurements) that the GF2 wouldn't hit the chassis at all, but a few of the hammers might hit the internal power transformer (the Bando unit), requiring that be repositioned. If true, even that could be enough for Kawai to eschew changing the action.

Originally Posted by propianist

3.) They wouldn't make a new VPC2 with same RM3 action as VPC1 because it has no other features to offer than its wooden action - very spartan, minimalist design - so there'd be no real marketable change for any new model with the same RM3 action. What would be different? Only upgrading the action to Grand Feel or GF2 would make any worthwhile difference to the VPC's appeal, if they stick to the same beautiful minimalist aesthetic design philosophy, and I think they will.


The one thing you didn't mention is the Grand Feel Compact action, which retains the same general dimensions of the RM3-II but extends the pivot length. I haven't been able to try it myself, but if there's a noticeable improvement over the RM3-II, then GFC could easily become the action in a VPC-2 without requiring a complete redesign of the case dimensions.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: jfl] #2719175
03/05/18 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jfl
What's kept me from purchasing a VPC1 is something some might consider silly: The sloping top.

.


That's to stop you or anyone else putting beer glasses on it . . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Gombessa] #2719200
03/05/18 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
The one thing you didn't mention is the Grand Feel Compact action, which retains the same general dimensions of the RM3-II but extends the pivot length.

Grand Feel Compact even a bit more compact than the RM3 Grand II. Here is a good hi-res picture of comparison.

It would be great to see ES8's successor (or any other portable [not console] digital piano from Kawai) with this Grand Feel Compact action* and SK-EX Rendering piano sound engine (Pianist Mode), Bluetooth MIDI/Audio connectivity and Spatial Headphone Sound (SHS) technology, double headphone outputs (like in ES8) – things, which are missing in MP7SE/MP11SE. It would be good alternative for me to upgrade from MP7.

* But maybe not possible because of the speakers in portable piano.

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: jfl] #2719203
03/05/18 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jfl
What's kept me from purchasing a VPC1 is something some might consider silly: The sloping top.


Me too. In particular I'd like to build a sliding music stand on the top (as I have now) so that I could have my music placed as close as possible. I do a lot of sight reading, and somehow those music stands placed way in the back won't cut it. I know one can get an arm-based music stand to get thing placed closer, but that is cumbersome and jiggly.

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: NormB] #2735601
05/10/18 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by NormB
Originally Posted by jfl
What's kept me from purchasing a VPC1 is something some might consider silly: The sloping top.


Me too. In particular I'd like to build a sliding music stand on the top (as I have now) so that I could have my music placed as close as possible. I do a lot of sight reading, and somehow those music stands placed way in the back won't cut it. I know one can get an arm-based music stand to get thing placed closer, but that is cumbersome and jiggly.


NormB- Same here. I need a flat surface on top for a K&M table top music rack and table top LED piano lamp. It'll be wobbly on top of this thing. Some sort of shelf with support legs at the back that rests on top of the VPC1 would do it. Wish I was handy, I'd try building it.

Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: Omalikular] #2735606
05/10/18 08:03 PM
05/10/18 08:03 PM
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jfl, which stand would you use with the VPC1? I dare say there is a stacker accessory for the K&M 18950 table stand that would facilitate the table top rack that you wish to use.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai VPC1 or wait? [Re: peterws] #2735651
05/11/18 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jfl
What's kept me from purchasing a VPC1 is something some might consider silly: The sloping top.
.

I have VPC1 and I can live with it easily. All that counts is on the `sloping` top at the moment, but...
Originally Posted by peterws

That's to stop you or anyone else putting beer glasses on it . . . .

hehe, I agree with Peter smile

Last edited by slobajudge; 05/11/18 02:55 AM.
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