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 Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 321
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These are new hammers on one of my uprights. I decided I wanted one piano with a really full, mellow tone and even good bass on the lower notes. I didn't have much luck attempting to needle the hammers so applied softener. I had some that I bought from a piano supply, but ran out and made a home brew of half alcohol and half fabric softener. I was VERY pleased with the results, except now six months later the hammers sound quite hard again. Is this normal and I will need to treat the hammers as a regular maintenance item? Is this the result of an improper formula?
Thanks, Don
Don, playing the blues in Austin, Texas on a 48" family heirloom Steinway upright, 100 year old 54" Weber upright, unknown make turn of the century 54" upright -- says "Whittier NY" on the plate, Starr, ca. 100 years old full size upright.
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,781
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Hi Don,
You did iron the felts after you treated them?
Ian
I'm all keyed up 2016 Blüthner Model A
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: May 2004
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Curious: who made the piano? What size is it? Who made the hammers? How thick in the felt layer at the strike point? Thanks for your attention --
Dorrie Bell retired piano technician Boston, MA
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Old fashioned full size upright from maybe late 1920s -- Weber. Not super premium model as it has 3/4 plate, but I like it anyway. Did not iron felts. Abel, (I think) hammers, installed by yours truly within the last two years. Original thickness of felt at strike point, little grooving yet. Oh...and has damp-chaser I installed. Shhhhh....I wasn't supposed to be able to buy it as not a registered tech.  Thanks in advance for your comments! Unless somebody tells me not to, I guess I will soak the hammers again. I really like what it did, though I would not necessarily want ALL my pianos that mellow. Don
Last edited by Blues beater; 03/04/18 01:11 PM.
Don, playing the blues in Austin, Texas on a 48" family heirloom Steinway upright, 100 year old 54" Weber upright, unknown make turn of the century 54" upright -- says "Whittier NY" on the plate, Starr, ca. 100 years old full size upright.
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Jan 2013
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Well I went ahead and soaked the hammers again and they are mellow again. This isn't a bad maintenance item and, as stated previously, I did not have much luck with needling at all. I guess I will find out if this has some long-term bad effect on the hammers.
Don, playing the blues in Austin, Texas on a 48" family heirloom Steinway upright, 100 year old 54" Weber upright, unknown make turn of the century 54" upright -- says "Whittier NY" on the plate, Starr, ca. 100 years old full size upright.
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Apr 2010
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There is some history that excessive liquid softener can eventually turn the hammers into complete mush. I guess if needling doesn't work then you can keep doing this until it also doesn't work and then get new hammers.
Keith Akins, RPT Piano Technologist USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Jan 2013
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There is some history that excessive liquid softener can eventually turn the hammers into complete mush. I guess if needling doesn't work then you can keep doing this until it also doesn't work and then get new hammers.
With time they are going the opposite way from mush! Why do you think this is happening?
Don, playing the blues in Austin, Texas on a 48" family heirloom Steinway upright, 100 year old 54" Weber upright, unknown make turn of the century 54" upright -- says "Whittier NY" on the plate, Starr, ca. 100 years old full size upright.
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,275
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There is some history that excessive liquid softener can eventually turn the hammers into complete mush. I guess if needling doesn't work then you can keep doing this until it also doesn't work and then get new hammers.
With time they are going the opposite way from mush! Why do you think this is happening? The softener deconstructs the felt -- ultimately turning it back into just wool...sort of. Since hard/soft is not the parameter spectrum that has to do with quality tone, you can get some pretty nasty sounds from fairly soft hammers as you can with hard ones. I think you can expect the hammers not to have durable voicing stability as time goes on.
Keith Akins, RPT Piano Technologist USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Dec 2010
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1:11 PM: Unless somebody tells me not to, I guess I will soak the hammers again. 7:09 PM Well I went ahead and soaked the hammers again and they are mellow again. I was busy during those 6 hours...Otherwise, I would have told you that you are going to ruin your new hammers with repeated soakings. Destroying the felt's quality (as Keith points out). Repeatedly "soaking the hammers"-- just what affect do you think this will play on the glue that holds that felt tension on the hammers? Just a question from my side. But, to each their own. Have to hand it to you- you waited almost an entire 6 hours before proceeding...LOL-- I do wonder at some who come in here asking professionals to weigh in on a question they have, when they have every intention of not waiting, or listening *shrugs* As you say, "I guess I will find out if this has some long-term bad effect on the hammers." 
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Feb 2017
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As Keith pointed out, you can always replace them. Try Ronsen next time.
Pwg
Last edited by P W Grey; 03/05/18 09:25 AM.
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Jan 2013
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As Keith pointed out, you can always replace them. Try Ronsen next time.
Pwg Yes... this old man needs projects to keep him out of trouble, or aimlessly cruising Facebook all day long!  After the softener sat in the hammers a while, the tone is quite good tonight. I got the idea and recipe for home-brew hammer softener from.......................................TECH AND TUNING.PIANOWORLD FORUM!  Don
Don, playing the blues in Austin, Texas on a 48" family heirloom Steinway upright, 100 year old 54" Weber upright, unknown make turn of the century 54" upright -- says "Whittier NY" on the plate, Starr, ca. 100 years old full size upright.
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Jun 2010
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What exactly is in fabric softener? Isn't it rather oily? What affect does oil /chemicals in the hammers have on piano strings, especially copper-wound ones? Fabric softener when used as a laundry aid, is largely rinsed away. What happens when it's allowed to sit in the fabric/felt for extended periods?
I don't know the answer to these questions, and that's one reason I've never used fabric softener on piano hammers.
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Dec 2010
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What exactly is in fabric softener? Isn't it rather oily? What affect does oil /chemicals in the hammers have on piano strings, especially copper-wound ones? ...... I don't know the answer to these questions, and that's one reason I've never used fabric softener on piano hammers. This was my brother's exact question to me when I mentioned this post... LOL There are so many possible negatives here!
Last edited by Rick_Parks; 03/06/18 07:59 AM.
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Feb 2017
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It is true that just because something "works" initially, this does not mean it is harmless. Time will eventually tell.
Pwg
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Dec 2010
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It is true that just because something "works" initially, this does not mean it is harmless. Time will eventually tell. Pwg *** needle, needle *** hence, my stance on DC systems  LOL --- but, that's just egging on a fight  sorry
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Feb 2017
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Dec 2010
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No I meant I'd be egging a fight - if I started in on DC  wasn't referring to you. sorry.
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Jun 2003
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
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As far as I am concerned, if hammers are not sounding good, they are toast already, and anything that makes them sound better is not harming them.
Semipro Tech
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Jul 2014
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That's rather odd... I've had only good experiences voicing Abel hammers
David C.
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 Re: Softened hammers w liquid, already hard and "clangy" again!
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Joined: Sep 2010
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I have had tremendous results spraying about 1 to 2 seconds worth of Ballistol on hammers
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