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JoBert, I agree. The metronome comes on very loud. On the CA97 and the CS11 this was also the case. It is really annoying. Could it be a simple fix?

Gombessa and JoBert, you guys are great. Thank you so much for all the detailed info.
I must say, the AvantGrand does not have a physical input volume knob, never mind a software-based option or the ability to make note-per-note changes (volume/intonation). So, even if the on-board approach is more practical than running VST’s (permanently) on the Novus, it still beats the AvantGrand as a controller. Why is the AvantGrand so bare bones? (rhetorical). Are they really telling us that it’s so good that you don’t need any further adjustments (other than reverb); because if that’s the case, they are dead wrong. It could use some help in the form of a more robust effects engine and overall compatibility with third party inventions (VST’s, etc.).
I did not experience the noise-gate, but others have; there’s also the crescendo effect; you can’t even save the few edits it allows -like reverb- because, once again, the default sound is so good that any changes you make are not worthy of becoming a preset, never mind “the -default- preset.”

I guess this is not really on topic, but it is a consequence of me getting the NV10, so it is at least related:

Today I sold my CA97, to a private buyer. I got a tad above 60% of the price that I myself paid back in December 2015, which I think is not bad. It certainly lessens the impact the NV10 had on my bank acount...

I am in the market for a digital piano. I am an intermediate player with a 100 year old Steinway that is in need of serious repair. Our house is small with wooden floors which amplifies the Steinway so much that my old sensitive ears are not enjoying the sound. I have always disliked the action of digital pianos until a few months ago when at a friend's concert at a music store, I sat down to a Kawai and instantly fell in love with the action. I found out I was playing the CS-11. Loved it! But then heard that Kawai was releasing the Novus which is supposed to have an even BETTER action. So last week I went back to the same store to try it out.

The action is extremely lovely. I definitely felt like I was playing an acoustic instrument. There was none of that sluggishness that seems to be the norm for low to mid range digital pianos. The sound was powerful and convinced me that I was playing a real piano. I didnt do any overtone tests to see how accurate the unit is (On the high end Roland you can hold down keys silently, and then hit a key normally and then hear the overtones of the "strings" you are holding down, which is a+ cool in my book). The one thing I hated about the unit and which caused a fracas between my wife and I is the bleep bleeping demo songs. They are so bleeping loud. At one point I had the volume of the piano VERY low to see how it would sound if I were playing late at night. I had my head up by the speakers to admire the sound, and unknowing to me my wife fired off a demo of the Chopin Polonaise and it nearly blew my head off. Pissed me off and my reaction caused a "marriage moment". I instantly hated the Novus. I am befuddled why Kawai chose to make their demo so ridiculously loud on such a beautiful nuanced piece of engineering. Any kid who comes over to play it is going to find the demo screen within 10 seconds and subsequently [censored] off everyone in the house.

Before this incident, I was going back and forth between the CS-11 and the Novus to see if I could live with the touch of the CS-11. I think I could, especially since the price is $5000 cheaper than the Novus. I never tried the demo songs on the CS-11 to see if Kawai decided they needed to be as in-your-face as the Novus. I contacted Kawai about this and lo and behold the person told me that Japan is aware of this and **might** fix it in a firmware upgrade. In the meantime, I am going to audition the high end Roland pianos at the shop and see how they compare to the CS-11.

botski,

You will find that the demos are just as loud on the CS11.

botski, that's funny because only four posts above I wrote about the loud demo songs.
The Kawai CA97 has comparatively loud demo songs too, so I assume that the CS11 (which is essentially the CA97 in a nicer cabinet) has them too. But my previous Yamaha also had loud demo songs and I remember a thread here about another model (don't remember which, but not Kawai, I think) where a user complained about the same. My theory is, that this is by design (from many manufacturers) so that the demo songs can be heard in a noisy shop.

BTW, the Novus does have the string resonance (what you called overtones).

When thinking about CS11 vs. Novus, you should be aware not only about the difference in the action, but also that sound-engine wise, the CS11 is already one generation behind.
That previous generation consisted of CA67, CA97, CS8 and CS11. Those four all have the same action and sound engine and differ mostly in cabinet and speaker configuration.
The current generation is CA78 and CA98 (which have replaced the CA67 and CA97). The current generation replacements for the CS8 and CS11 have not yet been released. This current generation still has the same action, but a newer sound engine.
So sound engine wise, the CS11 is actually behind the CA78 and CA98 (and the Novus).
Now the Novus stands a bit on the side, as it has a different action (an actual acoustic grand action), but regarding the sound engine, it has the same as the current generation CA78/CA98. So its sound engine is also one generation newer than the CS11's.
Or to be more precise, the Novus/CA78/CA98 actually have two sound engines: A new one (the newest that Kawai currently has) and also still the previous one, i.e. the same as the previous generation (CA67/CA97/CS8/CS11) had.

Confused yet?

Yes, we were just discussing how loud the speakers are on this thread

It's not just the demo songs. If you use the line-in or bluetooth audio feature on the Novus, you'll quickly notice that those can be extremely loud as well. Kawai actually provides separate volume sliders for bluetooth and line-in, though I don't know if any of that impacts demo songs (I've never tried any on the Novus).

The new sound engine on the Novus (and CA78/98) focuses heavily on improved "overtones" (otherwise known as string resonance). It's now modeled for every key independently, and you can hear the difference by striking a quick staccato note. There will be a ringing from the upper octave (which has no dampers) as the note decays, which you won't hear on the older sound engine (the one in the CS11).

I definitely agree that you should try all the candidate pianos before making your choice. The Novus is fantastic and a few of us here clearly love ours, but there are a lot of great digital pianos out there deserving of consideration.

Jo Bert, I read your post about the loudness right after I posted my message. I am an electrical engineer who dabbles in micro controllers and firmware and I would have felt dirty releasing a firmware that overrides the volume control set by the user. I cant believe that the metronome is too loud for 80% of its settings! It's like Kawai has 2 groups involved with sound - one group is privy to DSP programming, audio reproduction, intricate algorithms, perfection. The other group rides Harleys, beats their chest yelling "LOUDER!" while maximizing the rotation of every potentiometer they can find.

Thanks for the info on all of the other models. I loved the look of the CS11, its "looks like a piano" frame, how the buttons can be hidden with a cover. I will dig into the sound differences of the other models. I dont think the shop had a CA78 or CA98.

I wonder if the demos of the Novus can be password protected?

Okay, so you will pass on the Novus because the demo songs are too loud? That’s a first.

It's worth noting the NV10 has a "Speaker volume" toggle that can be set to "Normal" or "Low" in Settings. That might help.

Pretty much all piano manufacturers have boosted demo songs volume. It is just a marketing necessity in a piano shop floor. Humans perceive louder volume as a 'better sound'. This is just like ads being louder in television shows than the actual show.

It doesn't make sense to discount a piano based on the volume of the demo songs. After the first few days, I don't think I have ever really played any of the demo songs of Kawai CA-67.

Osho

Regarding metronome volume, you can set a different volume and save that and you're done.

Wait! The metronome volume is also too loud?
That’s it, Kawai; you’ve now gone too far for me. First you give as a great action (per most accounts), a brand-new sound engine, and a damper mechanism, and now you have the nerve to crank up the volume on the demos and metronome!
How am I supposed to get through my daily two-hour demo practice if the volume is simply too loud?
I regret to say this, but I’m also gonna have to pass on the Novus!

I tried to save the metronome settings. I am aware you could do that on the CN35. (I used to have one that I traded in for a CA97). But I can not see how to do that on the NV10.

Botski, The CS11 is a really nice hybrid, and about half the cost of the NV10. I know a shop in LA that will sell you my old one (9 months old) for likely $3000 or less. Because while it is nice, the Novus is exceptional.

Alright. Had a chance to try out the Novus NV10 myself yesterday at JustMusic Berlin. Here's my subjective account as a pianist solidly in the "amateur" category:

I started with the Novus NV10 and headphones. I was visiting Germany and didn't have my own headphones, which was a shame, because the phones plugged in (and there was a placard stating hope that you play with headphones, due to maybe 30 instruments in the same room) were plasticky and sounded quite poor. Still, initial impressions:

* More realistic sound texture in the Pianist mode than on my CS-11. It felt I could control the instrument better as well.
* Nice general feel to keyboard, definitely different than the GF-II, and very much like an acoustic. The keys have a bit "bounce" (hard to describe exactly, but they return to position more organically than on GF) in them, which makes them different from the Grand Feel. I don't play regularly with acoustic grands, but to my experience, feel was on par with entry level Kawai and Yamaha grands
* It was easier to bring out the melody than with any digital I've tried out.
* Action was to my amateur hands (3 years in the hobby) a bit hard to control, which I'd say is mostly a good thing -- more room for improvement that would likely translate to better control on acoustics as well.
* Trills were bit of a disapointment. The action was a bit on the heavy side, and even damper pedal bottomed, I couldn't immediately reach the speed I was hoping. Better than CS-11, but not by a huge margin.
* Pedal was harder to control than on CS-11. I had somewhat rigid shoes on, so this might have impacted it somewhat. On CS-11, there is some sound left when raising the pedal halfway, here it seemed to die at the moment pedal was 20-30 % up, causing audible cutting out of resonance before I got the next notes in playing a familiar song. Might be something that needs adjustment into, or tinkering with the Virtual Assistant resonance settings.

JustMusic also had Yamaha AvantGrand N2 and N3x on display, so I took advantage and immediately switched to N2 after the Novus. Compared to the Novus:

* Sound was audibly worse (not as realistic and lively). The age of N2 samples does show, and switching from Novus it was like returning to a 2010 digital from an actual acoustic. Not sure if I'd want to spend 2500e more on N2 than Novus to get such a thin sound.
* Action was lighter. Not worse or better, mostly just different. But trills were easier, much closer to the acoustic grand I'm comparing my CS11 (and Novus) against. On small minus side, initial resistance of the action was a bit "rubbery"
* Headphone amplification was obviously more limited, they had better-looking (and likely higher impedance) headphones on the AvantGrands, and I had to turn volume knob to full, and still was somewhat lacking in volume.

Especially considering the price, I'd say the Novus has a definite price-performance advantage against N2, with more modern and realistic sound, and comparable action feel. On a discount or lightly used N1, especially with VST like Pianoteq augmenting the sound, it would be a tougher call, though.

I then proceeded to N3x for a while. The sounds were definitely a lot better than on N2, and there was less of a difference against the Kawai (still, I'd not say the N3x having an advantage). From previous experience I know the sound production system on the N3x is excellent, so my main problem with the N3x is the high price and form factor, it's not an option for me currently. If I'd get and AvantGrand, I'd either try to get a bargain on N1/N2 models, or wait for N2x/N1x.

Returning back to Novus NV10, I played a bit more. After the AGs, there was an initial "oh my this is bouncy and hard to control" -feeling, but it faded after a minute or so, the actions are just somewhat different. The sound on the other hand felt more realistic than even the N3x. I asked the clerk if I could play without headphones, and tried the onboard audio system as well. The difference to the small headphones was audible and positive, the NV10 sounded very good. Bass felt better and more defined (probably the Pianist mode, not the audio system) than on my CS11. On the other hand, it did feel like the sound is coming from speakers, not the soundboard, so the CS11 may have some advantages as well, But the Pianist mode sound was very good, so I'd say the NV10 is a step up from CS11 also without headphones, but with some room to improve (waiting for NV20 ).

I couldn't stay for more than an hour (had a non-pianist friend waiting for me with nothing to do), so I did not try out the UI or other features of the NV10 more. My conclusions from this first hands-on were:

* Great, acoustic like touch surpassing digitals other than AvantGrand series
* Different feel than the AG series, both with their pros and cons, much like Kawai and Yamaha acoustics I'd wager.
* It's not "oh my god this is on par with a Steinway D" -level experience, so I feel there's still risk that I would at some point want a better (and more expensive) piano
* Pianist mode offers superior sound to N1/N2 and only N3x comes close (it's different), I'd have to play them both longer to say which is ultimately nicer.
* Pedal felt harder to control than on CS11, but could be due to shoes
* Price-wise, I felt that it's priced spot-on, making N2 feel overpriced and twice as expensive N3x a hard sell with only obvious benefit being the better sound system (and some may prefer the Yamaha action).

If I had to get a new digital right now, I'd pick the Novus. Still, I think I need to wait for one to arrive to Finland to try it out a second time to make up my mind if it's worth 9000e minus what I get from my CS11 to upgrade.

Thanks for posting your thoughts Jokke, glad to see a lot more people are able to get their hands on an NV10 to play!

My initial thoughts (and my lasting impressions after about 3 weeks now) are really in line with yours. I've definitely played a few large acoustic grands with actions I've preferred to the Novus, but most of those are literally an order of magnitude higher cost.

I did want to comment about the pedal (namely the sustain). I've always found that "regular" DPs tend to have unrealistically "perfect" pedaling. They have smooth travel and many levels of half-pedaling at precise points in that travel. Real grands, IMO, are all over the place. Some have extremely shallow travel, actuation pressure varies greatly, and the "engagement point" can be very different. In this sense, the NV10 is just like any other grand, it has its own feel, and you just get used to it as you play. FWIW, the pedal response is fairly notchy and stiff, which is also pretty realistic IMO. As with other Kawai DPs, there are some pedal settings you can adjust (mainly, where the engagement point is).

I definitely felt that the NV10 is more than a fair match against the AvantGrands, and other than the dated sound engine in the N1/N2, anyone comparing the two lines will likely end up making a decision based on personal preference (or in the N3X case, the form factor).

Hello Tom,



Metronome settings can be stored to a Favorite memory. I just tried setting the Metronome volume to a very low level, with 1/4 beat, then storing this to a Favorite memory. When I select that memory, the Metronome settings are recalled. The first (top-left) Favorite can be selected automatically at startup using the 'Startup with Favorite' function in the Favorites menu.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x

jokke, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts on the NV10.

Kind regards,
James
x

You guys, I need my Novus fix. Anything would do (even criticism): the screen is too loud, it should have 97 keys, it sounds too much like a piano, etc..