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New owner for Baldwin pianos? #2715404
02/18/18 02:27 PM
02/18/18 02:27 PM
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I read this article about Gibson and it mentions that the company recently sold the Baldwin piano line. To whom, it does not say. Any of our current Baldwin dealers have any info? I'm surprised that, if true, those dealers who have a presence here haven't mentioned it.

http://www.ajc.com/news/national/gi...6-years-business/OlaIEYdtLEv1rP92RvZFrM/

Last edited by violarules; 02/18/18 02:28 PM.
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Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2715418
02/18/18 03:06 PM
02/18/18 03:06 PM
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Very strange. Aside from this article, I can't find any mention of the recent sale of Baldwin anywhere. Anyone have access to D&B's Who Owns Whom? That's quite a story about Gibson, BTW.

Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2715420
02/18/18 03:22 PM
02/18/18 03:22 PM
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Other news say that it was a Baldwin warehouse in The Gulch, which I believe is in Nashville, was sold.


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Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2715421
02/18/18 03:24 PM
02/18/18 03:24 PM
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That warehouse was sold to Somera Road, a New York real estate investment company.


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Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2715541
02/19/18 12:27 AM
02/19/18 12:27 AM
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Gibson is Americana. They own a LOT of companies. The Les Paul products are the Steinways of the guitar world - expensive, but highly sought after for that sound you can only get with the real McCoy. Personally, I own a Steinway D and two high end Les Paul's. I love em!

In many ways, their core guitar products, of which there are legions of finicky fanatics, has allowed Gibson to survive bad economies, bad business buyouts and even government over zealousness in regulations. Frankly most businesses would have failed under similar pressures.

I don't think Gibson is going away. I rather doubt they will dump Baldwin to raise cash. Their new Chinese labor is cheap and they produce pianos to sell in the Chinese market.

Gibson allowed Baldwin to continue. In many ways Gibson was a musical angel coming in. In 2002, Baldwin owed GE Capital Bank $31 million. GE Capital bid $17 million for most of Baldwin's assets and agreed to sell them by Nov. 15. I would hazard a guess that, Gibson must have picked Baldwin up for something around $17-$31 million. That's a big bill to pay.... and to get the bill paid, the biggest cost factor had to go - labor. Off to China.... now Gibson was viewed as the musical devil coming in by American piano aficionados. But, it makes sense, when the largest piano market is in China. Who WOULD have saved Baldwin besides Gibson?

Still, American piano know how is possibly the best in the world given our history of piano manufacturing. As time goes on that know how get older and does not get passed on to younger people when all the manufacturing leaves. On the bright side we have the stunning Mason and Hamlin, Steinway and Charles Walter. Life goes on!

Last edited by SF10; 02/19/18 12:45 AM.
Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2715547
02/19/18 12:54 AM
02/19/18 12:54 AM
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I read an article as well saying they had sold Baldwin. I think the link was on the Drudge Report.


Marcus Valdes
Fayetteville, GA
Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2715723
02/19/18 05:22 PM
02/19/18 05:22 PM
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I'm seeing conflicting information. One source online, I've never heard of, while the other is the Atlanta newspaper (not debating the value/legitimacy of the quality of reporting, just listing the source). Not a peep from the Music Trades, so far.


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Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2717641
02/27/18 08:38 PM
02/27/18 08:38 PM
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So, was this just a rumor?


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: SF10] #2717643
02/27/18 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SF10
Personally, I own ... two high end Les Paul's. I love em!

I too love my Gibson Les Paul! thumb


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2717756
02/28/18 01:08 PM
02/28/18 01:08 PM
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I called Gibson Guitar, and was told that Gibson still owns Baldwin. The local Baldwin dealer also told me that he had heard nothing about Baldwin being sold.

Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2717761
02/28/18 01:35 PM
02/28/18 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Almaviva
I called Gibson Guitar, and was told that Gibson still owns Baldwin. The local Baldwin dealer also told me that he had heard nothing about Baldwin being sold.

Well, at least you tried to get the correct info directly from the horse's mouth. It has been my experience that companies will only tell you what they want you to know. And, what they tell you may or may not be correct.

Not to get too political here, but I think there is something to the "fake-news" phenomenon. And, quite often, with bigger companies, one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing. AT&T comes to mind. When the big companies get bigger, the mis-information syndrome gets worse.

I figure the true story will eventually get out about what is really going on with Gibson. I hope they can survive and be profitable once again, without any hostile takeovers from other business entities.

I wish all companies who make/sell musical instruments, and not just pianos, can survive and thrive once again.

Rick


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Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: Rickster] #2717872
02/28/18 09:12 PM
02/28/18 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Rickster
Originally Posted by Almaviva
I called Gibson Guitar, and was told that Gibson still owns Baldwin. The local Baldwin dealer also told me that he had heard nothing about Baldwin being sold.

Well, at least you tried to get the correct info directly from the horse's mouth. It has been my experience that companies will only tell you what they want you to know. And, what they tell you may or may not be correct.

Not to get too political here, but I think there is something to the "fake-news" phenomenon. And, quite often, with bigger companies, one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing. AT&T comes to mind. When the big companies get bigger, the mis-information syndrome gets worse.

I figure the true story will eventually get out about what is really going on with Gibson. I hope they can survive and be profitable once again, without any hostile takeovers from other business entities.

I wish all companies who make/sell musical instruments, and not just pianos, can survive and thrive once again.

Rick

No. You can rely on a company to tell you if it has divested of a division. Consequences can be pretty severe for that kind of deception. And anyway, it represents a viewpoint that is at odds with the way things actually work. What possible profit motivation could a company have to lie about something that is a matter of public record? How would Gibson stand to make money by falsely claiming that they own something they don't? It's not that people don't sometimes lie but that there is no incentive to do so. There's no "fake news" possible. You can track down their SEC filings or have Hoovers to the legwork for $49.


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Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2717908
02/28/18 11:51 PM
02/28/18 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by kpembrook
No. You can rely on a company to tell you if it has divested of a division. Consequences can be pretty severe for that kind of deception. And anyway, it represents a viewpoint that is at odds with the way things actually work. What possible profit motivation could a company have to lie about something that is a matter of public record? How would Gibson stand to make money by falsely claiming that they own something they don't? It's not that people don't sometimes lie but that there is no incentive to do so. There's no "fake news" possible. You can track down their SEC filings or have Hoovers to the legwork for $49.

The last time I tried to argue with someone named Keith on Piano World, I got into trouble. So, I won't go down that rabbit hole again. I just don't believe your comments here, which is basically your opinion, and you don't believe my comments nor agree with my opinion. Fair enough, we can leave it at that. And, there is plenty of fake news all around us, and you don't have to look hard to find it. For example, if some "source" announced publicly that Gibson had sold Baldwin, when in fact they didn't, isn't that fake-news?

Nobody knows any more now about the status of Baldwin or Gibson, other than the company told Almaviva over the phone that it hasn't sold Baldwin.

With all due respect, to each their own.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2717918
03/01/18 12:11 AM
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I think someone just misinterpreted the item that I wrote about, that Gibson sold a building that was used to warehouse Baldwin pianos.


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Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: Rickster] #2717919
03/01/18 12:14 AM
03/01/18 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Rickster
Originally Posted by kpembrook
No. You can rely on a company to tell you if it has divested of a division. Consequences can be pretty severe for that kind of deception. And anyway, it represents a viewpoint that is at odds with the way things actually work. What possible profit motivation could a company have to lie about something that is a matter of public record? How would Gibson stand to make money by falsely claiming that they own something they don't? It's not that people don't sometimes lie but that there is no incentive to do so. There's no "fake news" possible. You can track down their SEC filings or have Hoovers to the legwork for $49.

The last time I tried to argue with someone named Keith on Piano World, I got into trouble. So, I won't go down that rabbit hole again. I just don't believe your comments here, which is basically your opinion, and you don't believe my comments nor agree with my opinion. Fair enough, we can leave it at that. And, there is plenty of fake news all around us, and you don't have to look hard to find it.

I'm glad you're the Piano World expert know-it-all regarding all things Gibson, but nobody knows any more now about the status of Baldwin or Gibson than before you enlightened all of us...

With all due respect, to each their own.

Rick


Rick,

I'm sorry I came across as a "know it all". However here are some questions for consideration. Answer them if you wish....


Fact or opinion: Does the Securities and Exchange Commission exist or not?

Fact or opinion: Are publicly traded corporations required to disclose certain information yearly to the SEC?

Fact or opinion: Are there substantial penalties if a corporation provides false information on their SEC filings?

Simple question: What do you think are the benefits or incentives for a corporation to lie about whether they owned a particular subsidiary or had sold it? Where's the profit?

Another simple question: Why would someone become a piano dealer (Baldwin, for example) and not know about who they were dealing with?

Again, I certainly didn't mean to come across as someone that knows everything about Gibson. I don't. I have, however, been a Baldwin dealer and at one time actually owned Baldwin-United stock (as a sales performance award -- which became worthless in their first bankruptcy). And previously, my piano technician father also was a Baldwin dealer for a few years when I was growing up. As a result, I have somewhat kept track of Baldwin through the years -- last personally speaking with a representative at NAMM 2 years ago and having friends who are current Baldwin dealers.

It is certainly a good thing that everybody doesn't see things the same way as I do. Music is beautiful, this is a great forum and you certainly make worthwhile contributions to it.

I value personal contact. If you PM me with your email I will send you mine and my phone number. I've been around for a while but I'm still learning. I'd be glad to chat with you -- and not necessarily about Gibson.

--Keith


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Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
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Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2717923
03/01/18 12:29 AM
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If I'm not mistaken, Gibson is a privately held company. They do not have the same stringent reporting requirements that publicly traded companies do.


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: Retsacnal] #2717928
03/01/18 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
If I'm not mistaken, Gibson is a privately held company. They do not have the same stringent reporting requirements that publicly traded companies do.

Actually, that's what I thought, too. But according to this, they appear to be be making SEC filings or at least there is the equivalent information available. confused smirk

Last edited by kpembrook; 03/01/18 12:43 AM.

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Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
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Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2717930
03/01/18 12:44 AM
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Gibson not only faces legitimate competition. There is a significant presence in the market place for what is known as a "Chibson," clones manufactured in China. Compared to pianos, guitars are small and easy to make by hand in a simple shop. And there's apparently a huge financial incentive to do so (in violation of international IP laws). It's not hard to find online sources for these guitars, and they frequently don't even post their own pictures--posting instead pictures of genuine Gibsons, complete with "Made in USA" embossed on the head stock.


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: kpembrook] #2717932
03/01/18 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kpembrook
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
If I'm not mistaken, Gibson is a privately held company. They do not have the same stringent reporting requirements that publicly traded companies do.

Actually, that's what I thought, too. But according to this, they appear to be be making SEC filings or at least there is the equivalent information available. confused smirk

Well, I'm not gonna spend $49 to see the report. There are many reasons a company may choose to voluntarily make information public, for example, if they plan to "go public" at some point.
A private company can be fairly secretive if they want to, and many are.


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2717934
03/01/18 01:07 AM
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Here's a "Chibson" that has "Made in USA" clearly showing in the second photo:

https://www.dhgate.com/product/whol...om/394660090.html#s1-5-1b;srp|1049519200

Some photos have trademark infringing details covered over, and there's a conspicuous blank area where the purchaser can apply a Gibson decal (I've seen listings in which they even come with the Gibson decal too).

Here's a link to dozens of similar guitars:

https://www.dhgate.com/wholesale/chibson.html


Interesting though. It's been a few years since I looked at these. In that past I've seen flaggrant Gibson clones listed online. These seem to skirt that a bit by not having a Gibson logo on them (although that space is clearly left open for someone to apply whatever decal they like). I suppose these could be "stenciled" with a legit logo of some sort. But...

Guitar body shapes can't be protected, but the head stock shape can be. There was a period of time in the guitar world known as the "lawsuit era" in which japanese makers were allowed to copy the shape of guitar bodies, but forced to stop copying the distinctive head stock shapes (of Gibson and Fender). The Chibson above seems to have Gibson's trademarked "open book" headstock shape.


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2717940
03/01/18 01:29 AM
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Quote
Well, I'm not gonna spend $49 to see the report.


Me neither. But the point is, the info is available.


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Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
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Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: kpembrook] #2717941
03/01/18 01:32 AM
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Seems like a sale of Baldwin might have been in the works. (Which could be why a secretary who answered the phone didn't know.) This site is reporting it as a done deal.


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Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
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Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2717948
03/01/18 02:14 AM
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Gibson's guitar business is doing just fine it's the questionable acquisition of other companies that has them in trouble. Their CEO is quoted as having said they want to be the Nike of audio. They should have stuck to making instruments.


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Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: jarobi] #2718030
03/01/18 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jarobi
Gibson's guitar business is doing just fine it's the questionable acquisition of other companies that has them in trouble. Their CEO is quoted as having said they want to be the Nike of audio. They should have stuck to making instruments.


Well, not according to this.

Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: kpembrook] #2718031
03/01/18 10:25 AM
03/01/18 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by kpembrook
. (Which could be why a secretary who answered the phone didn't know.).


Yup. It happens surprisingly often even at big corporations that you get some kid on the phone who doesn't know, and just guesses.


-- J.S.

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Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: tend to rush] #2718118
03/01/18 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tend to rush
Originally Posted by jarobi
Gibson's guitar business is doing just fine it's the questionable acquisition of other companies that has them in trouble. Their CEO is quoted as having said they want to be the Nike of audio. They should have stuck to making instruments.


Well, not according to this.


I didn't say their guitars were affordable or of the same quality as before but that the guitar division was still (fine) profitable. In the video, at the 11:30 mark they talk about how Gibson's instrument division is still profitable with $1B in sales. What's killing them, right now, is the looming bond and loan payments coming due from their acquisition of mostly unprofitable businesses.


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Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: jarobi] #2718248
03/02/18 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by jarobi
Originally Posted by tend to rush
Originally Posted by jarobi
Gibson's guitar business is doing just fine it's the questionable acquisition of other companies that has them in trouble. Their CEO is quoted as having said they want to be the Nike of audio. They should have stuck to making instruments.


Well, not according to this.


I didn't say their guitars were affordable or of the same quality as before but that the guitar division was still (fine) profitable. In the video, at the 11:30 mark they talk about how Gibson's instrument division is still profitable with $1B in sales. What's killing them, right now, is the looming bond and loan payments coming due from their acquisition of mostly unprofitable businesses.


Just like Fender and Guitar Center.


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Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2718329
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There are a few active topics right now on PW about Baldwin. If Gibson has sold the brand, wouldn't it be GRAND to find out that the new owners plan on returning manufacturing to the US and reviving the classic Baldwin piano lines we've been discussing -- uprights and grands? Oh I know that is highly unlikely, but one can dream.

Last edited by GC13; 03/02/18 09:26 AM.
Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2718330
03/02/18 09:27 AM
03/02/18 09:27 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,496
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Retsacnal Online content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
Retsacnal  Online Content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,496
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That would be nice!


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
Re: New owner for Baldwin pianos? [Re: violarules] #2718367
03/02/18 11:49 AM
03/02/18 11:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 466
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Music Me Online content
Full Member
Music Me  Online Content
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 466
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I agree GC13


Barbara
...without music, no life...
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