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KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action #2715126
02/17/18 03:28 PM
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Vadesriux Offline OP
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I have a Yamaha CP4 at home that I will be returning this Monday. The flagship of Yamaha stage pianos action. But I have struggled with the weight of the Graded Hammer action from Yamaha, to the point of giving up, even though the white keys are wooden and all. It just feels too heavy to me when playing the keys, especially when playing faster passages. You get tired really quickly and that is unnatural to me. And even though everyone else praises the feel of the keybed. It only goes to say that YOU are the one who ultimately can figure out if the keyboard is good for you or not.

Can ES8 or MP7SE owners - that have already played the CP4 - comment if the KAWAI RH3 action is lighter / easier (less resistive) to play than the CP4 (Graded Hammer action) ?

Thank you!

Last edited by Vadesriux; 02/17/18 03:31 PM.

Eduardo
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Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE / ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715128
02/17/18 03:33 PM
02/17/18 03:33 PM
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maurus Offline
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Yes the Kawai RH3 action is a little (emphasis: a little) lighter but chances are that your main issue is (lack of) adequate technique. If this is indeed your problem a change of instruments (especially between the ones you mention) won't make a big difference.

Last edited by maurus; 02/17/18 03:34 PM.
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE / ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715142
02/17/18 04:31 PM
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Vadesriux Offline OP
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Thank you Maurus!

Any one else input?


Eduardo
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE / ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715173
02/17/18 06:54 PM
02/17/18 06:54 PM
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Wouldn't your hands adjust over time?
Muscle growth takes time (months).


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6.1 / Pearl Alto Flute 201
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Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE / ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715178
02/17/18 07:26 PM
02/17/18 07:26 PM
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Hello I had that keyboard (cp-4) and between the plastic construction and the loud thud key bottoming out and the lack luster pianos I sold it quickly. Good old CP-33 blows it away and you can get them cheap!

Last edited by MoogandDavid; 02/17/18 07:28 PM.
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE / ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715184
02/17/18 07:49 PM
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CP33? Wow, that's going way back to the classics.

Last week I just happened upon a CP300 and a Kawai MP5. I actually really enjoyed playing both of them. I think when I encounter pianos on the road, I'm really not so much judging them as closely as I do my own personal equipment, and I'm not demanding of them a completely accurate simulation of a premium acoustic grand. I'm just trying to see if it's something pleasant and playable. And both certainly were. In any case, I generally find that the "old stuff" isn't really as obsolete as we sometimes make it out to be.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE / ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715188
02/17/18 08:00 PM
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Vadesriux Offline OP
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Sorry guys but you are diverging from the topic.
Yamaha CP33 and CP300 both have Yamaha GH action that I find to be too stiff and tiring for playing faster piano parts and chords.
My question is if someone who has played the Kawai ES8 / MP7SE and the Yamaha GH action (CP4 etc) found the Kawai RH3 action less heavy than the Yamaha Graded Hammer (GH) action.


Eduardo
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE / ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715228
02/17/18 11:01 PM
02/17/18 11:01 PM
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Nashville, Tennessee
PianoZac Offline
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Originally Posted by Vadesriux
Sorry guys but you are diverging from the topic.
Yamaha CP33 and CP300 both have Yamaha GH action that I find to be too stiff and tiring for playing faster piano parts and chords.
My question is if someone who has played the Kawai ES8 / MP7SE and the Yamaha GH action (CP4 etc) found the Kawai RH3 action less heavy than the Yamaha Graded Hammer (GH) action.

As noted above, it may be a technique issue. I have an N1 and went to play a bunch of slab style pianos yesterday and played the CP4. It is noticeably lighter than the N1 which is of course a true acoustic action. My impressions having played the ES8, Is that the RHIII feels comparable to the PHA50 Roland action and Yamaha CP4 action in weight. I was actually quite impressed with the PHA50 action. Surprisingly nice. Have you considered the FP-90?

Last edited by PianoZac; 02/17/18 11:02 PM.

Kawai MP7SE
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715240
02/18/18 12:56 AM
02/18/18 12:56 AM
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Quote
The flagship of Yamaha stage pianos action. But I have struggled with the weight of the Graded Hammer action from Yamaha, to the point of giving up, even though the white keys are wooden and all. It just feels too heavy to me when playing the keys, especially when playing faster passages.


One day while trying multiple Yamaha Digital pianos I noticed exactly what you described. First I thought it was me maybe I was a little tired.
I spoke about it with a colleague who works for Yamaha (not a dealer). He told me that at least 80% of digital piano are sold to beginners and many of these are children.
Anticipating the reluctance by piano teachers to digital pianos or less experience players thinking that "real pianos" are heavier, Yamaha intentionally make the keyboards heavier. Since this is obvious-noticeable, it makes for an easy selling point. Typically high-end pianos have a smooth moderate touch/weight but that it is harder to identify for the general piano-buyer, so a heavy touch is an easier thing to sell.

Another point worth considering is that the white wood key in Yamaha's, it is practically the same size as the key-top, so there is no benefit to have a wood key (again it is just a selling point). The whole point of having wood keys in a digital piano, it is to reproduce the weight distribution by placing the key-stick on a balance rail creating counter-weight, as well as delivering the same key-motion and direct transfer of energy.

My two cents.


Last edited by Kurtmen; 02/18/18 01:08 AM.

San Mateo Piano
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Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Kurtmen] #2715271
02/18/18 05:22 AM
02/18/18 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurtmen
Quote
The flagship of Yamaha stage pianos action. But I have struggled with the weight of the Graded Hammer action from Yamaha, to the point of giving up, even though the white keys are wooden and all. It just feels too heavy to me when playing the keys, especially when playing faster passages.


One day while trying multiple Yamaha Digital pianos I noticed exactly what you described. First I thought it was me maybe I was a little tired.
I spoke about it with a colleague who works for Yamaha (not a dealer). He told me that at least 80% of digital piano are sold to beginners and many of these are children.
Anticipating the reluctance by piano teachers to digital pianos or less experience players thinking that "real pianos" are heavier, Yamaha intentionally make the keyboards heavier. Since this is obvious-noticeable, it makes for an easy selling point. Typically high-end pianos have a smooth moderate touch/weight but that it is harder to identify for the general piano-buyer, so a heavy touch is an easier thing to sell.

Another point worth considering is that the white wood key in Yamaha's, it is practically the same size as the key-top, so there is no benefit to have a wood key (again it is just a selling point). The whole point of having wood keys in a digital piano, it is to reproduce the weight distribution by placing the key-stick on a balance rail creating counter-weight, as well as delivering the same key-motion and direct transfer of energy.

My two cents.



I thought the hammer mechanism was to create counter-weight and inertia anyway. An interesting observation by me (for a change) was that the Kawai k200/300 acoustics were lighter to play than the Yamaha B2/3s next to them in the shop. And they were both lighter than the Digital GH3 or it's wooden derivative.
I really don't want to talk myself into buying a silent acoustic . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715277
02/18/18 05:44 AM
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K's RH3 is less balanced weightwise than R's PH50 on the black keys: they feel heavier towards the keys rear part on the former. As usual, it is recommended to try before buying to check if that is a relevant thing for the buyer.


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715284
02/18/18 06:18 AM
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When I came to choose a new piano last summer I was 'introduced' to the concepts of key weight and key touch, things which I had never really heard of way back in the 50's when I used to play on all sorts of pianos. Sometimes I would be playing on 4 different pianos in any one day and you just played them - they were pianos. The only time I ever remember this being mentioned is when we first had the Steinway grand at school - it had a very light touch. But I soon got used to that and played it virtually every school day for 6 or 7 years.

So these were new concepts to me when I came to choose a new piano last summer. Yes - there were differences and I did in fact choose a piano on the basis of touch though, as I have mentioned elsewhere, I only had it a week and had to swop for another.

I think that the most important thing regarding touch and weight, is that it should be even and responsive and capable of fast, distinct trills. And most modern digitals are certainly capable of that. So don't get too hung up on the differences. Practice makes perfect whatever instrument you are using.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715304
02/18/18 08:27 AM
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Good post, Colin!

@Kurtmen: What you describe about Yamaha trying to convince piano teachers may be true for the entry level/middle class Yamaha's notably those using the GH action. I doubt it is a selling point for the CP4 since this is geared at a different market.

To the OP: If you still like the CP4's sounds, and if there is nothing obviously wrong with the keys (like loud clicks in defective keys), I would suggest keeping it and working to get more accustomed to its action.


Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715306
02/18/18 08:32 AM
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For what it’s worth, I have both a CP4 and Nord Stage 2. I have been alternating between the two for gigs and have decided that the CP4 practically plays itself compared to the Stage, because of its action, I suppose, even though the Stage supposedly has a lighter action.


Yamaha CP4, Kawai CA93, EV ZXA1
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715309
02/18/18 08:56 AM
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I agree with what Colin Miles says 100%. The tendency now is to expect very close tolerances and standardisation. But the fact is you adapt very quickly to a new action, a new sound and new dynamic responses, and small differences in response times - though I agree large time lags (latency over 25ms) is unpleasant to play and off-putting and heavy actions are an uphill struggle to deal with.

When comparing side by side, heavy, stodgy or weird actions like Yamaha GHS, Roland PHA alpha II and Kawai RHI are offputting and would make trilling unnecessarily difficult. But after a few hours, you might adapt even to those. Those I mention there are all older actions. I think the tendency for DP makers now is convergence, so the differences between an equivalent Yamaha, Kawai and Roland is even smaller then before -a shade lighter, a shade heavier, but rather similar in quality.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

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Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715663
02/19/18 01:56 PM
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Nashville, Tennessee
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Does anyone here have any experience playing the ES8 or MP7SE and can comment on their thoughts of the action?


Kawai MP7SE
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715671
02/19/18 02:37 PM
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Vadesriux Offline OP
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Hi Zak.
I have just returned today the CP4 I had for test with me. I loved the simplicity of the menus, favorites setting, layering and spliting simplicity and uncluttered panel control. But unfortunately, I really found the Yamaha GH3 action too heavy, especially when playing fast and repetitive chords. Way too heavy. I was sad for I really liked this piano but no way I would keep a piano that I could not relate in term of feeling. Even if being from Yamaha.

I have ordered a Kawai MP7SE (answering your question) to try for 14 days. I spoke with a Kawai worker and player (cannot reveal the name) this weekend and he plays the MP7SE regularly. Told me that, although never having played the CP4, his friends (musicians too) love the RH3 Kaway action (on the ES8 / MP7SE) and find the action less heavy than the CP4 action.
Also the original MP7 has the RH2 action, that seems to have a slightly lighter feel than the RH3, due to the fact that the later has counterweights on both the black and white keys.
Of course I am anxious for playing the MP7SE. Will get back to you with my experience.

One other aspect I found when playing the CP4, and particularly when playing octaves, was that the front of the CP4 white keys tend to scratch you fingers due to its sharp corners front design. Also didnt enjoy that part of the playing experience. But this particular aspect might be related with my yet poor technique. But the heavy keys, I dont have any doubt about it.

Last edited by Vadesriux; 02/19/18 02:39 PM.

Eduardo
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715676
02/19/18 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Vadesriux
Hi Zak.
I have just returned today the CP4 I had for test with me. I loved the simplicity of the menus, favorites setting, layering and spliting simplicity and uncluttered panel control. But unfortunately, I really found the Yamaha GH3 action too heavy, especially when playing fast and repetitive chords. Way too heavy. I was sad for I really liked this piano but no way I would keep a piano that I could not relate in term of feeling. Even if being from Yamaha.

I have ordered a Kawai MP7SE (answering your question) to try for 14 days. I spoke with a Kawai worker and player (cannot reveal the name) this weekend and he plays the MP7SE regularly. Told me that, although never having played the CP4, his friends (musicians too) love the RH3 Kaway action (on the ES8 / MP7SE) and find the action less heavy than the CP4 action.
Also the original MP7 has the RH2 action, that seems to have a slightly lighter feel than the RH3, due to the fact that the later has counterweights on both the black and white keys.
Of course I am anxious for playing the MP7SE. Will get back to you with my experience.

One other aspect I found when playing the CP4, and particularly when playing octaves, was that the front of the CP4 white keys tend to scratch you fingers due to its sharp corners front design. Also didnt enjoy that part of the playing experience. But this particular aspect might be related with my yet poor technique. But the heavy keys, I dont have any doubt about it.


Depends, I dont think Yamaha CP4 have heavy keys, but I think that my Kawai VPC1 have heavy keys but not too heavy. Compare to VPC1 Yamaha CP4 have light keys. As I said depends on the angle and habit

Last edited by slobajudge; 02/19/18 02:51 PM.
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715677
02/19/18 02:49 PM
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Sounds good. I look forward to hearing back. I am likely ordering the MP7SE with the GFP-3 triple pedal unit (that comes standard with the MP11SE). Should be a solid combo for sub $2000.


Kawai MP7SE
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715681
02/19/18 03:14 PM
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I found the RH3 on my MP7SE a joy to play.
Even as a complete beginner I could go 2 hours w/o any problems. If it hadn't been defective, I would have kept it (despite the rebound noise of the keys).

If you ordered via Internet shop, I seriously do hope you have better luck with shipping than I did.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6.1 / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715696
02/19/18 03:53 PM
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Vadesriux Offline OP
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What defect did you find on your MP7SE Granyala? May I ask?

And why did you not asked the shop for a new MP7SE?


Eduardo
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715725
02/19/18 05:31 PM
02/19/18 05:31 PM
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Nashville, Tennessee
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Is there an issue with the RHIII key bed or design, or in Kawai’s QC for the ES8/MP7SE? I have read now 5 users (here and users I follow on YouTube) who have exchanged ES8s or MP7SEs for faulty keys, noises, or other QC issues. I’m personally a huge Kawai fan, acoustically and in their digital instruments and honestly believe they have developed industry leading sample sets for their SK sample sets and their GF/GFII key actions so it’s a little disheartening to read about the same issues with multiple users.


Kawai MP7SE
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715730
02/19/18 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Vadesriux
What defect did you find on your MP7SE Granyala? May I ask?
OT sidestory:
And why did you not asked the shop for a new MP7SE?

3 black keys were stuck on the first (could not be depressed).
1 black key was stuck on the second.

One is a fluke, 2 is a systematic problem, hence I considered it illogical to order a 3rd. That didn't stop Thomann from going against our agreement to refund me and trying to send a 3rd. I intervened and had it diverted back en route, so it never reached me. Still lost a whole week b/c of that. Sheesh.

At that time I also reassessed and came to the conclusion that I do not need any of the onboard functions, b/c I preferred playing with pianoteq 6. So I ordered a VPC1 from a local dealer. And now I am waiting b/c KAWAI has supply problems *chuckle*. So frustrating, trying to get a working piano since Jan 13th now. >.<

/OT

@PianoZac: Well issues can always happen. In my case, it was definitely transport damage, since the styros inside the box were cracked. So, despite the box looking fine there had to be some force involved.
As far as I can tell: ordering one of these devices via the Internet is Russian roulette. I'dd go for a local dealer if I had the chance.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6.1 / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715735
02/19/18 06:21 PM
02/19/18 06:21 PM
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Had one ES8 replaced due to clicks on the most played keys and on occasion, playing a key fff when playing softly. The replacement developed the same symtoms after not too long in my hands.


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Granyala] #2716259
02/21/18 11:07 PM
02/21/18 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Granyala


@PianoZac: Well issues can always happen. In my case, it was definitely transport damage, since the styros inside the box were cracked. So, despite the box looking fine there had to be some force involved.
As far as I can tell: ordering one of these devices via the Internet is Russian roulette. I'dd go for a local dealer if I had the chance.


I have ordered an MP7SE so hoping to have better luck! Not really sure what I’d do instrument wise if the MP7SE doesn’t work out.


Kawai MP7SE
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2716283
02/22/18 01:07 AM
02/22/18 01:07 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 322
Celestis
Granyala Offline
Full Member
Granyala  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 322
Celestis
Yeah, neither did I.
Eventually I decided to save money and go with a VPC-1. But I am not as attached to the Kawai voices as you are. laugh


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6.1 / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2716341
02/22/18 08:55 AM
02/22/18 08:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 867
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
500 Post Club Member
Doug M.  Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 867
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Originally Posted by Vadesriux
I have a Yamaha CP4 at home that I will be returning this Monday. The flagship of Yamaha stage pianos action. But I have struggled with the weight of the Graded Hammer action from Yamaha, to the point of giving up, even though the white keys are wooden and all. It just feels too heavy to me when playing the keys, especially when playing faster passages. You get tired really quickly and that is unnatural to me. And even though everyone else praises the feel of the keybed. It only goes to say that YOU are the one who ultimately can figure out if the keyboard is good for you or not.

Can ES8 or MP7SE owners - that have already played the CP4 - comment if the KAWAI RH3 action is lighter / easier (less resistive) to play than the CP4 (Graded Hammer action) ?

Thank you!


I too think that your technique or practice strategy might be the issue for you. I found the CP4 action quite light compared with similarly aged Roland stage pianos (RD800).
There is a thread active at the moment about how to avoid hurting your hands during practice which might provide you with some ideas.

Keyboards and hand problems


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Granyala] #2716364
02/22/18 10:30 AM
02/22/18 10:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,524
Nashville, Tennessee
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member
PianoZac  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,524
Nashville, Tennessee
Originally Posted by Granyala
Yeah, neither did I.
Eventually I decided to save money and go with a VPC-1. But I am not as attached to the Kawai voices as you are. laugh

Yeah I think if I have repeated issues with the RHIII action, I’ll probably pick up the CP4 since it is a known quantity.


Kawai MP7SE
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2716376
02/22/18 11:35 AM
02/22/18 11:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 175
P
pianomike Offline
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pianomike  Offline
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P
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 175
I had the Kawai es7 when it first came out , and had a lot of problems with notes sticking , so returned it and they gave me a new one ,after a few months had the same problems then the mp11 came out and the Kawai dealer gave a great deal trading in the es7 on the mp 11 , he assured me it was a different key action , so now I've had the mp11 for the past four years and have had no problems at all and it is also easier to play. I traded in my nord and and old gx 700 for the Rd 2000 which is a nice keyboard ,the actions nice but not as nice as the Kawai's. I saw on you tube that they are making additional piano sounds from other manufacturers that you'll be able to install on the rd 2000 ,they might be out already. Now I'm waiting on a light weight S3 from dexibell which has 73 keys and an octave shift ,it only weights 22 pounds which is the reason I,m getting it ,to have something light weight to go out to jam with I have an es 100 that I used to jam with but I'm going to trade that in for a pair of decent monitors . For what its worth I've had no issues with the Kawai es 100 and its still in perfect condition .

Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2716378
02/22/18 11:42 AM
02/22/18 11:42 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,275
M
maurus Offline
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maurus  Offline
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M
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,275
Hi Zac,

Yes, the CP4 action is very nice and playable, kind of a miracle in a board of this weight (quite a bit lighter than the MP7!). I regularly practice on one of these... The main (CFX) sound is also quite sensitive and playable. Still, I prefer the wooden action of my VPC1 (this one is hooked up to a Nord Electro with beautiful piano sounds of its own wink ).

... Which leads me to the question: Why did you prefer the MP7 over the MP11 (with its GF action) in the end? Total weight? Or the new Shigeru sounds?

All Kawai wooden actions are beautiful to play, in my view.


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