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KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action #2715126
02/17/18 03:28 PM
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Vadesriux Offline OP
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I have a Yamaha CP4 at home that I will be returning this Monday. The flagship of Yamaha stage pianos action. But I have struggled with the weight of the Graded Hammer action from Yamaha, to the point of giving up, even though the white keys are wooden and all. It just feels too heavy to me when playing the keys, especially when playing faster passages. You get tired really quickly and that is unnatural to me. And even though everyone else praises the feel of the keybed. It only goes to say that YOU are the one who ultimately can figure out if the keyboard is good for you or not.

Can ES8 or MP7SE owners - that have already played the CP4 - comment if the KAWAI RH3 action is lighter / easier (less resistive) to play than the CP4 (Graded Hammer action) ?

Thank you!

Last edited by Vadesriux; 02/17/18 03:31 PM.

Eduardo
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Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE / ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715128
02/17/18 03:33 PM
02/17/18 03:33 PM
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maurus Offline
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Yes the Kawai RH3 action is a little (emphasis: a little) lighter but chances are that your main issue is (lack of) adequate technique. If this is indeed your problem a change of instruments (especially between the ones you mention) won't make a big difference.

Last edited by maurus; 02/17/18 03:34 PM.
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE / ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715142
02/17/18 04:31 PM
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Vadesriux Offline OP
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Thank you Maurus!

Any one else input?


Eduardo
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE / ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715173
02/17/18 06:54 PM
02/17/18 06:54 PM
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Celestis
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Wouldn't your hands adjust over time?
Muscle growth takes time (months).


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
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Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE / ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715178
02/17/18 07:26 PM
02/17/18 07:26 PM
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MooganDavid Offline
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Hello I had that keyboard (cp-4) and between the plastic construction and the loud thud key bottoming out and the lack luster pianos I sold it quickly. Good old CP-33 blows it away and you can get them cheap!

Last edited by MoogandDavid; 02/17/18 07:28 PM.
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE / ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715184
02/17/18 07:49 PM
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CP33? Wow, that's going way back to the classics.

Last week I just happened upon a CP300 and a Kawai MP5. I actually really enjoyed playing both of them. I think when I encounter pianos on the road, I'm really not so much judging them as closely as I do my own personal equipment, and I'm not demanding of them a completely accurate simulation of a premium acoustic grand. I'm just trying to see if it's something pleasant and playable. And both certainly were. In any case, I generally find that the "old stuff" isn't really as obsolete as we sometimes make it out to be.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE / ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715188
02/17/18 08:00 PM
02/17/18 08:00 PM
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Vadesriux Offline OP
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Sorry guys but you are diverging from the topic.
Yamaha CP33 and CP300 both have Yamaha GH action that I find to be too stiff and tiring for playing faster piano parts and chords.
My question is if someone who has played the Kawai ES8 / MP7SE and the Yamaha GH action (CP4 etc) found the Kawai RH3 action less heavy than the Yamaha Graded Hammer (GH) action.


Eduardo
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE / ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715228
02/17/18 11:01 PM
02/17/18 11:01 PM
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Nashville, Tennessee
PianoZac Offline
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Originally Posted by Vadesriux
Sorry guys but you are diverging from the topic.
Yamaha CP33 and CP300 both have Yamaha GH action that I find to be too stiff and tiring for playing faster piano parts and chords.
My question is if someone who has played the Kawai ES8 / MP7SE and the Yamaha GH action (CP4 etc) found the Kawai RH3 action less heavy than the Yamaha Graded Hammer (GH) action.

As noted above, it may be a technique issue. I have an N1 and went to play a bunch of slab style pianos yesterday and played the CP4. It is noticeably lighter than the N1 which is of course a true acoustic action. My impressions having played the ES8, Is that the RHIII feels comparable to the PHA50 Roland action and Yamaha CP4 action in weight. I was actually quite impressed with the PHA50 action. Surprisingly nice. Have you considered the FP-90?

Last edited by PianoZac; 02/17/18 11:02 PM.

Kawai MP7SE
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715240
02/18/18 12:56 AM
02/18/18 12:56 AM
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Kurtmen Offline
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Quote
The flagship of Yamaha stage pianos action. But I have struggled with the weight of the Graded Hammer action from Yamaha, to the point of giving up, even though the white keys are wooden and all. It just feels too heavy to me when playing the keys, especially when playing faster passages.


One day while trying multiple Yamaha Digital pianos I noticed exactly what you described. First I thought it was me maybe I was a little tired.
I spoke about it with a colleague who works for Yamaha (not a dealer). He told me that at least 80% of digital piano are sold to beginners and many of these are children.
Anticipating the reluctance by piano teachers to digital pianos or less experience players thinking that "real pianos" are heavier, Yamaha intentionally make the keyboards heavier. Since this is obvious-noticeable, it makes for an easy selling point. Typically high-end pianos have a smooth moderate touch/weight but that it is harder to identify for the general piano-buyer, so a heavy touch is an easier thing to sell.

Another point worth considering is that the white wood key in Yamaha's, it is practically the same size as the key-top, so there is no benefit to have a wood key (again it is just a selling point). The whole point of having wood keys in a digital piano, it is to reproduce the weight distribution by placing the key-stick on a balance rail creating counter-weight, as well as delivering the same key-motion and direct transfer of energy.

My two cents.


Last edited by Kurtmen; 02/18/18 01:08 AM.

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Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Kurtmen] #2715271
02/18/18 05:22 AM
02/18/18 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Kurtmen
Quote
The flagship of Yamaha stage pianos action. But I have struggled with the weight of the Graded Hammer action from Yamaha, to the point of giving up, even though the white keys are wooden and all. It just feels too heavy to me when playing the keys, especially when playing faster passages.


One day while trying multiple Yamaha Digital pianos I noticed exactly what you described. First I thought it was me maybe I was a little tired.
I spoke about it with a colleague who works for Yamaha (not a dealer). He told me that at least 80% of digital piano are sold to beginners and many of these are children.
Anticipating the reluctance by piano teachers to digital pianos or less experience players thinking that "real pianos" are heavier, Yamaha intentionally make the keyboards heavier. Since this is obvious-noticeable, it makes for an easy selling point. Typically high-end pianos have a smooth moderate touch/weight but that it is harder to identify for the general piano-buyer, so a heavy touch is an easier thing to sell.

Another point worth considering is that the white wood key in Yamaha's, it is practically the same size as the key-top, so there is no benefit to have a wood key (again it is just a selling point). The whole point of having wood keys in a digital piano, it is to reproduce the weight distribution by placing the key-stick on a balance rail creating counter-weight, as well as delivering the same key-motion and direct transfer of energy.

My two cents.



I thought the hammer mechanism was to create counter-weight and inertia anyway. An interesting observation by me (for a change) was that the Kawai k200/300 acoustics were lighter to play than the Yamaha B2/3s next to them in the shop. And they were both lighter than the Digital GH3 or it's wooden derivative.
I really don't want to talk myself into buying a silent acoustic . . .


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Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715277
02/18/18 05:44 AM
02/18/18 05:44 AM
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K's RH3 is less balanced weightwise than R's PH50 on the black keys: they feel heavier towards the keys rear part on the former. As usual, it is recommended to try before buying to check if that is a relevant thing for the buyer.


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715284
02/18/18 06:18 AM
02/18/18 06:18 AM
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When I came to choose a new piano last summer I was 'introduced' to the concepts of key weight and key touch, things which I had never really heard of way back in the 50's when I used to play on all sorts of pianos. Sometimes I would be playing on 4 different pianos in any one day and you just played them - they were pianos. The only time I ever remember this being mentioned is when we first had the Steinway grand at school - it had a very light touch. But I soon got used to that and played it virtually every school day for 6 or 7 years.

So these were new concepts to me when I came to choose a new piano last summer. Yes - there were differences and I did in fact choose a piano on the basis of touch though, as I have mentioned elsewhere, I only had it a week and had to swop for another.

I think that the most important thing regarding touch and weight, is that it should be even and responsive and capable of fast, distinct trills. And most modern digitals are certainly capable of that. So don't get too hung up on the differences. Practice makes perfect whatever instrument you are using.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715304
02/18/18 08:27 AM
02/18/18 08:27 AM
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maurus Offline
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Good post, Colin!

@Kurtmen: What you describe about Yamaha trying to convince piano teachers may be true for the entry level/middle class Yamaha's notably those using the GH action. I doubt it is a selling point for the CP4 since this is geared at a different market.

To the OP: If you still like the CP4's sounds, and if there is nothing obviously wrong with the keys (like loud clicks in defective keys), I would suggest keeping it and working to get more accustomed to its action.


Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715306
02/18/18 08:32 AM
02/18/18 08:32 AM
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For what it’s worth, I have both a CP4 and Nord Stage 2. I have been alternating between the two for gigs and have decided that the CP4 practically plays itself compared to the Stage, because of its action, I suppose, even though the Stage supposedly has a lighter action.


Yamaha CP4, Kawai CA93, Kurzweil SP6, EV ZXA1
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715309
02/18/18 08:56 AM
02/18/18 08:56 AM
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I agree with what Colin Miles says 100%. The tendency now is to expect very close tolerances and standardisation. But the fact is you adapt very quickly to a new action, a new sound and new dynamic responses, and small differences in response times - though I agree large time lags (latency over 25ms) is unpleasant to play and off-putting and heavy actions are an uphill struggle to deal with.

When comparing side by side, heavy, stodgy or weird actions like Yamaha GHS, Roland PHA alpha II and Kawai RHI are offputting and would make trilling unnecessarily difficult. But after a few hours, you might adapt even to those. Those I mention there are all older actions. I think the tendency for DP makers now is convergence, so the differences between an equivalent Yamaha, Kawai and Roland is even smaller then before -a shade lighter, a shade heavier, but rather similar in quality.


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Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715663
02/19/18 01:56 PM
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Does anyone here have any experience playing the ES8 or MP7SE and can comment on their thoughts of the action?


Kawai MP7SE
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715671
02/19/18 02:37 PM
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Vadesriux Offline OP
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Hi Zak.
I have just returned today the CP4 I had for test with me. I loved the simplicity of the menus, favorites setting, layering and spliting simplicity and uncluttered panel control. But unfortunately, I really found the Yamaha GH3 action too heavy, especially when playing fast and repetitive chords. Way too heavy. I was sad for I really liked this piano but no way I would keep a piano that I could not relate in term of feeling. Even if being from Yamaha.

I have ordered a Kawai MP7SE (answering your question) to try for 14 days. I spoke with a Kawai worker and player (cannot reveal the name) this weekend and he plays the MP7SE regularly. Told me that, although never having played the CP4, his friends (musicians too) love the RH3 Kaway action (on the ES8 / MP7SE) and find the action less heavy than the CP4 action.
Also the original MP7 has the RH2 action, that seems to have a slightly lighter feel than the RH3, due to the fact that the later has counterweights on both the black and white keys.
Of course I am anxious for playing the MP7SE. Will get back to you with my experience.

One other aspect I found when playing the CP4, and particularly when playing octaves, was that the front of the CP4 white keys tend to scratch you fingers due to its sharp corners front design. Also didnt enjoy that part of the playing experience. But this particular aspect might be related with my yet poor technique. But the heavy keys, I dont have any doubt about it.

Last edited by Vadesriux; 02/19/18 02:39 PM.

Eduardo
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715676
02/19/18 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Vadesriux
Hi Zak.
I have just returned today the CP4 I had for test with me. I loved the simplicity of the menus, favorites setting, layering and spliting simplicity and uncluttered panel control. But unfortunately, I really found the Yamaha GH3 action too heavy, especially when playing fast and repetitive chords. Way too heavy. I was sad for I really liked this piano but no way I would keep a piano that I could not relate in term of feeling. Even if being from Yamaha.

I have ordered a Kawai MP7SE (answering your question) to try for 14 days. I spoke with a Kawai worker and player (cannot reveal the name) this weekend and he plays the MP7SE regularly. Told me that, although never having played the CP4, his friends (musicians too) love the RH3 Kaway action (on the ES8 / MP7SE) and find the action less heavy than the CP4 action.
Also the original MP7 has the RH2 action, that seems to have a slightly lighter feel than the RH3, due to the fact that the later has counterweights on both the black and white keys.
Of course I am anxious for playing the MP7SE. Will get back to you with my experience.

One other aspect I found when playing the CP4, and particularly when playing octaves, was that the front of the CP4 white keys tend to scratch you fingers due to its sharp corners front design. Also didnt enjoy that part of the playing experience. But this particular aspect might be related with my yet poor technique. But the heavy keys, I dont have any doubt about it.


Depends, I dont think Yamaha CP4 have heavy keys, but I think that my Kawai VPC1 have heavy keys but not too heavy. Compare to VPC1 Yamaha CP4 have light keys. As I said depends on the angle and habit

Last edited by slobajudge; 02/19/18 02:51 PM.
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715677
02/19/18 02:49 PM
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Sounds good. I look forward to hearing back. I am likely ordering the MP7SE with the GFP-3 triple pedal unit (that comes standard with the MP11SE). Should be a solid combo for sub $2000.


Kawai MP7SE
Re: KAWAI RH3 (MP7SE/ES8) action vs Yamaha GH3 (CP4) action [Re: Vadesriux] #2715681
02/19/18 03:14 PM
02/19/18 03:14 PM
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Celestis
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I found the RH3 on my MP7SE a joy to play.
Even as a complete beginner I could go 2 hours w/o any problems. If it hadn't been defective, I would have kept it (despite the rebound noise of the keys).

If you ordered via Internet shop, I seriously do hope you have better luck with shipping than I did.


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VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
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