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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2714212
02/14/18 09:40 AM
02/14/18 09:40 AM
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Zagreb, Croatia
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Originally Posted by JoBert


So my advice would be: Always go for the best instrument you can afford, to maximize your enjoyment. But on the other hand, if you can not afford a certain "better" instrument that you are longing for, don't allow this to affect your enjoyment either. Remember that even with the instrument that you do have, you can find enjoyment, make fine music, and become a good musician.


I'd just like to +1 this sentiment... I spent several years struggling learning on a crappy guitar, being convinced from the outside that it's all I need and once I get better, I can get a better instrument.

Truth be told, I only got better at guitar after I bought a much better instrument than the one I started on. The ease of playing it just made all the difference, especially with motivation factor. What was once drudgery was suddenly enjoyment, even though my skill level was exactly the same. Not that I ended up being anything more than a hack, but I enjoyed the road travelled a whole lot more.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2714236
02/14/18 10:45 AM
02/14/18 10:45 AM
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Thanks guys, I get the point. The piano by it self won't make me "better". At my age and level I will NEVER be able to play the passage from Brahms 2. Nor do I want to. I like playing "Stardust", "Moon River", etc. But does that mean I will not enjoy playing on a piano with a better action? If I lived alone and wouldn't bother everyone listening to me practice progressions, or the same four bars over and over, I would purchase a six foot grand. However, that isn't going to happen. So I want the best "piano" I can buy that will fit in my study and I can play with headphones. The CS11 is a fine instrument, no doubt. But if the NV10 or an AG will provide a better experience, why not get it?


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Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Kawai James] #2714294
02/14/18 03:09 PM
02/14/18 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
8 Octaves, thank you for your post.

May I ask where it was stated that the NV10 keyboard action is adapted from the GL10?

I don't believe there has been any official statement from Kawai regarding this point.

Kind regards,
James
x


Hi James,

Right, it was stated a couple of times in this thread by posters, which is why I said I hope the info is wrong. The poster said "with good authority" for what it's worth. Yes, I'm skeptical because someone else said the AG is based on the C1 action, which is also false. The source is some piano sales website. Anyone playing a C1 then an N3 will know those are completely different actions, so different they might as well come from different companies. It is very wrong to think there is such a thing as a grand piano action. There certainly isn't such a thing as one Kawai grand piano action as the RX3 and GX-3 and SK3 have actions that feels completely different and we're not even talking about vastly different sizes of Kawai. Too often the discussions on this forum assume a grand piano is one thing when it's hundreds of completely different things.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: 8 Octaves] #2714295
02/14/18 03:15 PM
02/14/18 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by 8 Octaves


Right, it was stated a couple of times in this thread by posters, which is why I said I hope the info is wrong. The poster said "with good authority" for what it's worth. .


Hopefully not the same post that claimed the NV10 is actually made by building a full GL10 and then sawing the back end off, and then covering the back with cardboard after installing an ES110 into it for the tone generator wink


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Francis Martin] #2714296
02/14/18 03:15 PM
02/14/18 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Francis Martin
After some confusion with my interlocutor and some consultation of this topic within the house in Vienna, it became true that the model 155 does not have the key length of the model 200, but "only" houses that of the model 170. Likewise, the models 170 and 185 do not have the key length of the model 200! The web page was corrected accordingly. The statements on the website of Bösendorfer regarding this topic are correct now for about a year.


Thanks for this update. When I played the 155 last, it did feet larger than a typical Steinway S, which I assume was this key length described in their marketing materials. I guess having the action of the 170 is ok, but exaggerating that it is the same as the 200, well, shame on them.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2714297
02/14/18 03:17 PM
02/14/18 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Hopefully not the same post that claimed the NV10 is actually made by building a full GL10 and then sawing the back end off, and then covering the back with cardboard after installing an ES110 into it for the tone generator wink


Really? I missed that one. It's a great idea! laugh

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: 8 Octaves] #2714298
02/14/18 03:19 PM
02/14/18 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Hopefully not the same post that claimed the NV10 is actually made by building a full GL10 and then sawing the back end off, and then covering the back with cardboard after installing an ES110 into it for the tone generator wink


Really? I missed that one. It's a great idea! laugh


http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...nteresting-conversation.html#Post2703150

Quote
What I've heard over the holidays from reputable sources was even more interesting:

Kawai is actually making the Novus NV10 "hybrids" from real GL-10 models, by sawing off the back portion of the grand piano, and gluing a third leg to keep it upright.

...

I can't disclose my source, but let's just say he's from Korvatunturi and has been in the business of delivering musical instruments and all kinds of things even small children enjoy a LONG TIME.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: 8 Octaves] #2714300
02/14/18 03:28 PM
02/14/18 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Hopefully not the same post that claimed the NV10 is actually made by building a full GL10 and then sawing the back end off, and then covering the back with cardboard after installing an ES110 into it for the tone generator wink


Really? I missed that one. It's a great idea! laugh


Wait! You’re telling me the Novus is not a sawed-off GL10?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Kenny Cheng] #2714301
02/14/18 03:31 PM
02/14/18 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng
I believe all Kawai GX series and GL series use the same Millennium III Action. I think the only difference between GX and GL keyboards are key surfaces. And I think key lengths for GX and GL are the same no matter what piano size is (need confirm).

The smaller grand pianos have shorter strings and smaller soundboards (resulting in different sound characteristics such as dynamic ranges / velocity curves) and that's why you feel differently even if the action parts are the same.


No, none of this can be true. This is simply not consistent with how pianos of different sizes are designed or made regardless of the manufacturer. Kawai must follow the laws of physics like everyone else. It's absurd to think a 9-ft concert grand would share the same action as a 5-ft micro grand.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2714302
02/14/18 03:42 PM
02/14/18 03:42 PM
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It is very well known that Kawai does not follow the laws of physics like everyone else!

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Pete14] #2714304
02/14/18 03:54 PM
02/14/18 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
It is very well known that Kawai does not follow the laws of physics like everyone else!


It is true that 100 J of energy applyed to a key can’t produce more than 100 J of sound (in fact far less, because of a low efficiency)... excepted with electronic devices smile


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2714305
02/14/18 04:11 PM
02/14/18 04:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
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Germany
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With regard to the parts of the action and keyboard used in the NV10, last October I found the following report in the "JMT Web News" (Japan Music Trade). It is from Sep. 07, 2017, and the last paragraph reads:

[...] "Kawai newly designed the keyboard for NV10 based on Ultra-responsive Action II built into Kawai acoustic grand piano in the same length, basic structure and parts of GX-1 grand piano.
According to Kawai spokesman, main markets for NV10 are expected to be music colleges as well as discerned amateurs." [...]

Whether the spokesman also made the statement about the "parts from the GX-1" in the lines above "main markets for NV10 are"?
One can certainly find out more about the report mailing to the editors of JMT.

@ KAWAI James,
you see, this topic keeps coming up again and again. It’s not the first time.
And that's good! Because it is obviously of greater interest.
Would be great, if we could finally get clarity and more transparency from the official side. Better, it would come from KAWAI as of others.
I think KAWAI does not have to hide at all!

Below, the link to the complete (but not long) publication:
http://www.musictrades.co.jp/english/detail

[Edit]
Sorry, the link above is about their news starting from Nov. 06, 2017 to present.
Though, have a look to the news from Jan. 05 2018 03:04 PM:

"Yamaha Opens Factories in Indonesia and India".

Have a special focus on the third paragraph:
[...] "Yamaha Musical Products Asia mainly intensifies production capability of digital pianos to be able to supply to world markets. The addition of a new factory will allow Yamaha to realign overall production lines at the existing 5 plants in Indonesia. It starts operation in this August." [...]

What's going to be built there?!


Now, here we are with the right link to the JMT News for the NV10:
http://www.musictrades.co.jp/english/detail/?param=8696

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2714331
02/14/18 06:36 PM
02/14/18 06:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
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USA
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My new NV10 will be delivered tomorrow! Yes I had to write a big check. Hope this is my last piano. (I told my wife that when I bought the CS11.)


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Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2714344
02/14/18 08:43 PM
02/14/18 08:43 PM
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Usa
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That was quick, did you buy without trying?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: TomLC] #2714429
02/15/18 01:54 AM
02/15/18 01:54 AM
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Germany
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Originally Posted by TomLC
My new NV10 will be delivered tomorrow! Yes I had to write a big check. Hope this is my last piano. (I told my wife that when I bought the CS11.)

Congratulations! I wish you a lot of fun with it!

Would be great if you would post here about your experience, once you've got the piano.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2714464
02/15/18 06:49 AM
02/15/18 06:49 AM
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Think I might pop into Rose Morris when I get a chance and play the CA98 with some HD650 headphones, as its supposedly the same sound (though I still don't know if the NV10 has more actual amplifying power over headphones?)

The article linked to earlier gave the indication that the CA98 had plenty enough power headphone wise for HD650s. But hearing yourself is believing! Underwhelmed by them on the YDP163, but that may be down to it not having enough power over the headphones.

Doubt RM will have the NV10. I seem to recall them saying that it would go on their website immediately when it arrives, and its not on their at the moment.

Anyone found an NV10 in a showroom in London that can be played?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2714469
02/15/18 07:01 AM
02/15/18 07:01 AM
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Yes I'm visiting London for a few days in mid March so I contacted Rose Morris about the NV-10 and they said they hoped to have it at the end of March. I'd also like to try it out so very interested if you can find one in London. Bonners may have it but that's Eastbourne or Reigate not London.

You'd think the capital city would have one to test out somewhere

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2714472
02/15/18 07:12 AM
02/15/18 07:12 AM
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I just had a chance to try the Novus NV10. Long story short: I still very much prefer the touch of a Yamaha N2 (even without TRS).

First of all a bit of background about myself: I am not a professional but I graduated with a Bachelor's Degree in Music, majoring in piano. I used to spend 3-5 hours a day in the practice room with a grand piano in the university during my 3 years of study and I have played on quite a lot of grand pianos. I mainly play classical pieces (mainly Chopin, Liszt, Schubert, Mozart)

Before testing it today in JustMusic Berlin I was practicing on an acoustic grand for an hour. Afterwards I played on both Avand Grand N2 and Kawai NV10.

The NV10 to me has a sensitive action and good sound (playing with headphone), very realistic pedals. However, the touch of it lacks the depth or "stiffness" i need when I play a classic piece. Once you put your hand on it, your fingers almost go directly straight to the bottom of the key. It might be "easier" to play but this makes it (at least for me) very difficult to control the touch I want for the music. Sometimes when I want bring out different textures in a piece and create different timbres, I need that amount of key resistance to create such subtleness. I find it difficult to do it when the key is too loose and it goes straight to the bottom too easily. (could be an issue resulted by my technique) I always play with my arm on the piano. Those who only use finger technique to play the piano may find the Kawai NV10 easier to play.

To me the Yamaha N2 has a touch which suits me better. It has the resisitance which I need to create the difference. I wouldn't say it feels exactly the same as a grand piano. But it's by far the most realistic touch I've played on a digital (from my own experience). I can easily create different textures and tone colors on it. The sound isn't amazing. But to me, the TOUCH is the most important thing when I practice, as it's the thing which allows me to create the subtleness in my performance. For a better sound, I believe I can use a VST (like the Garritan CFX).

With the headphones plugged in, I wasn't impressed by the sound of NV10 either. I believe neither Yamaha or Kawai's sample can compare to a dedicated music sample library like Garritan CFX.

This is just my opinion. After all, it all depends on personal preference smile


Last edited by kiwibd; 02/15/18 09:00 AM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2714481
02/15/18 07:48 AM
02/15/18 07:48 AM
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kiwibd, it's interesting to hear those different impressions. It just goes to show that there is no such think as the grand piano action. Acoustic actions are just as varied (if not more so) as digital actions.

It would be interesting to hear if that acoustic grand that you played just before going to JustMusic was a Yamaha? Then it would probably not be surprising that the N2 felt more "correct" to you than the NV10.

Personally, I have much less experience than you playing acoustic grands (essentially none), so when I tested the NV10, to get a base line I also tested the Kawai GL30 and GL50 pianos that Thomann had in the shop, which have more or less the same action as the NV10. And as I wrote in my initial post, I felt that the resistance (the "pressure point" you need to overcome) of the NV10's action was stronger than those of the GL30 and GL50 (back then I speculated that those have maybe been in the show room for a longer time and have been worn out, or smoothed out a bit). So if the NV10 action felt to you like it lacked depth, then I would guess that those two GL30 and GL50 pianos would have felt even more lacking, in that regard.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2714486
02/15/18 08:21 AM
02/15/18 08:21 AM
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I think we get used to the action we play with. If forced, and we had to go from NV10 to N2, or the other way around, I'm sure all of us here would get used to it and learn to play just fine on it.

I played on a 170K Bösendorfer once with the music school. I can't say I liked it. The action felt all wobbly, no stiffness. But that just goes to show you that I don't know anything. There is probably a reason for it being wobbly. If I had the opportunity to play on it everyday, I'm sure I could get used to it, and grow to like it.


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