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Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: Brymul] #1910985
06/09/12 10:11 AM
06/09/12 10:11 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
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Grand Rapids Michigan
Yes I know what you mean Jean, sometimes I just read too. That can be just as much fun.

BDB, I hope you feel better soon! Colds suck as it is let alone to have one in the summertime too! Yuck.


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
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Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: Jerry Groot RPT] #1911159
06/09/12 05:26 PM
06/09/12 05:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Silverwood Pianos  Offline
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Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted by Jerry Groot RPT

BDB, I hope you feel better soon! Colds suck as it is let alone to have one in the summertime too! Yuck.


I wonder if maybe it is allergies....maybe allergic to the tech forum...[Linked Image]


Dan Silverwood
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Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: Brymul] #1911184
06/09/12 06:45 PM
06/09/12 06:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
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Grand Rapids Michigan
AHCHOOOOOOO!! OH NOOOOO!!!!! IS IT CONTAGIOUS????


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: Brymul] #1911188
06/09/12 06:57 PM
06/09/12 06:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,895
Oakland
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BDB Offline
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Does it spread through computer viruses?


Semipro Tech
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Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: Brymul] #1911191
06/09/12 07:07 PM
06/09/12 07:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Grand Rapids Michigan
It must! I think it's called the hammer return virus. It bounces from one computer to the next.


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: Brymul] #1911202
06/09/12 07:24 PM
06/09/12 07:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,895
Oakland
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BDB Offline
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Speaking of bouncing hammers, the second piano I tuned today was a Baldwin Hamilton with Corfam. I gave an explanation the problem, which I hope will get to the powers that be. I hope that is not the problem with this piano. I have only seen it in Hamiltons, not in the spinets, but who knows? To the OP, make sure the "leather" was not gray or black. If it is, you have to replace it with leather.


Semipro Tech
Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: Loren D] #1911709
06/11/12 03:37 AM
06/11/12 03:37 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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Mark R.  Offline
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Pretoria, South Africa
Loren:

Originally Posted by Loren D
Fair enough, just pointing out that Mark didn't say the hammers were still sticking out of the action.


???

Of course I did. I described the action, being out of the piano, as follows:

Originally Posted by Mark R.
If you actually lift the wippens slightly, the hammer does not return all the way to the rest rail. When you then let go of the wippen, it pulls the bridle strap taut, and the hammer returns.


A hammer that doesn't return to the rest rail under its own weight (i.e. with a slack bridle strap), but does return once the wippen is hanging from it (by a taut bridle strap), is clearly a sticky hammer.

Dan:

Thanks for the encouragement. It doesn't happen often around here, so I appreciate it all the more.

Last edited by Mark R.; 06/11/12 03:59 AM. Reason: corrected quote tag

Autodidact interested in piano technology.
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1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: Mark R.] #1911835
06/11/12 09:51 AM
06/11/12 09:51 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,886
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark R.
.....

A hammer that doesn't return to the rest rail under its own weight (i.e. with a slack bridle strap), but does return once the wippen is hanging from it (by a taut bridle strap), is clearly a sticky hammer.

.....


Mark, to encourage you in a different way (that is to consider ALL possibilities), what if there was negative lost motion. Or if there was lost motion with everything at rest, but a substantial divot in the knuckle. Could the hammer still not return on it's own without it being at fault?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: UnrightTooner] #1912128
06/11/12 11:09 PM
06/11/12 11:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2
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Brymul Offline OP
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Brymul  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2
Thanks to everyone for the help and the rich dialogue. Sure enough with the action out of the piano, when I remove the bridle strap from a problem hammer it is slow to return. Time to buy some center pins.

Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: Brymul] #1912148
06/12/12 12:45 AM
06/12/12 12:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
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Oakland
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Make sure the springs are in the butts correctly.


Semipro Tech
Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: UnrightTooner] #1912172
06/12/12 02:30 AM
06/12/12 02:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
what if there was negative lost motion. Or if there was lost motion with everything at rest, but a substantial divot in the knuckle. Could the hammer still not return on it's own without it being at fault?


Granted, your scenario might also cause the hammer to return incompletely, but given a healthy center, I think it should still return up to the "point of blockage" quickly. However, the OP posted right at the beginning:

Originally Posted by Brymul
Ten or so keys will play once followed by a long pause while the hammer creeps back into place.

(my emphasis)

This shows that those hammers are sluggish to reset, but given enough time, they do reset properly. Would your scenario of negative lost motion or a deep divot in the butt/knuckle allow for this time-dependent behavior?


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: Brymul] #1912208
06/12/12 05:14 AM
06/12/12 05:14 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
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France
no no, they are slow because of the corrugated cardbard wink

moistening vertical centers with a syringue is not diffocult even with a paintbrush.



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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: Brymul] #1912266
06/12/12 08:43 AM
06/12/12 08:43 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,886
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
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Bradford County, PA
Mark:

I was challenging you to consider what your statement said as a general rule, which it seemed to be; not as part of troubleshooting this specific case, which I am shying away from since it is a DIY question on a professional forum. smile


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: Brymul] #2713970
02/13/18 11:06 AM
02/13/18 11:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1
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chdavis Offline
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1
This is a very old thread, but I'm having a similar problem on a Baldwin spinet with the wire stickers.

Wips move freely, jacks move freely, hammers move freely, keys move freely, hammer return springs are where they are supposed to be, but once the donut is stuck back into the fork on the key, some hammers won't return. This action has pressed action brackets that do not sit on the bolts on the bottom, but are screwed into a strip of wood at the bottom. I'm wondering if the action mechanism is in some kind of bind. I took it out and reinstalled it and the few hammers that were not returning in the center are fine and there are now fewer having a problem in the bass. Most of the sluggish hammers and those that don't return, are in the bass, but a few are in the extreme treble. The center is now fine. I did notice that the center action brackets hang down just a bit, maybe 1/16", below the strip it's screwed into, while the edges are pretty much flush. I'm now wondering if the edges should be hanging down a bit also. Any other ideas?

Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: chdavis] #2714124
02/13/18 08:32 PM
02/13/18 08:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 315
Maine, USA
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Rick_Parks Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 315
Maine, USA
I think you have sticky center-pins (just like the thread discusses)- it is a common problem in old spinets... Your adjustments to the action itself might have added weight for the return, enough to compensate for some that are not sticking as badly (ie. to overcome the friction of those particular center-pins). I don't know for sure, but I would suspect those hammers will begin to stick again.

Try hitting the problematic hammer flanges with some Action Center-pin lube; see if that takes it all away.

I don't think you are having action "binding" (whatever is meant by that)- all other action parts would show problems in their mechanics if things were warped (not just hammer return).

[I don't think this is your problem, but] - You might want to check the lost-motion setting on those particular stickers- as you say things are changing when you take the rubber "grommets" {"donuts") off and then reseat them back in their place...Old spinet grommets can be a real pain to work with (getting them in the proper position again) sometimes... They can foul up the regulation terribly...Solution is to adjust them all properly, so that they are seated all the way in place...Also to introduce the proper lost-motion after that...(fast way is to add felt shim under hammer rail to introduce lost-motion for the entire rail length).


But, really- when trouble shooting such situations- ALWAYS think and start simple first...
Things to check would be:
For Proper Hammer Return---
Are the keys eased properly?
Are the hammer springs all strong enough to do their job properly?
Are the hammers that are not returning properly rubbing against something (neighboring part)?

And then, (what I suspect is the issue)-
Are the center-pins gummed up? - lube will solve temporarily.

From there, move into the more technical stuff if needed.
I doubt you'll need to though.

Last edited by Rick_Parks; 02/13/18 08:34 PM.

Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com
Re: Slow Returning Hammers [Re: chdavis] #2714275
02/14/18 01:16 PM
02/14/18 01:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 122
Quebec
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Bourniplus Offline
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Quebec
Have you removed the offending hammers to test the center pins?
Are you absolutely sure that the keys move freely both at the balance rail and front rail?


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