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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713945
02/13/18 09:37 AM
02/13/18 09:37 AM
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OT maybe, but I was listening to various VSTis yesterday evening - not because I'm looking for any particular VSTi - rather for listening to nice piano playing. I perceived the VI Labs pianos as dull, and uninspiring, specifically German Grand, and Italian Grand.

However, I found that NI Grandeur was very good, with a full and deep sound, probably good for classical, and that is on topic. Though classical piano music is more in your fingers, than the piano sound itself, but that goes for all music played on the piano.


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Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713963
02/13/18 10:49 AM
02/13/18 10:49 AM
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I really like the Grandeur. That and Vintage D are my most-used pianos.

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713964
02/13/18 10:52 AM
02/13/18 10:52 AM
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Yeah, that's pretty much in line with what a lot of people say about the VI Labs pianos, and I've said it before as well. I have mixed views on the instruments you mention. I'm not a fan of Fazioli pianos anyway, and the VI Italian is a bit too bright for me. By contrast, their American and German grands are highly veiled, even muffled. I believe they were brand new instruments that were sampled, which was a mistake in my view, because clearly the hammers have not been cut by the strings, and so you do get a much duller sound. There is something in the VI audio processing pipeline that really seems to flatten the tone of all three instruments as well (even the Italian, in spite of its brightness). By contrast the NI Grandeur has a more recognisable American D tone, and considerable greater immediacy and clarity. Essentially, it sounds nicer.

On the other hand, the VI Labs pianos are the height of professional VST production. There are no major popouts (one or two notes on the American grate a little at times with me, but it's scarcely noticeable), partial pedalling and repedalling works well and is configurable in the interface, they have a variety of mic perspectives (not radically different to each other like the Garritan CFX, but still a welcome addition), they have all the other expected controls, and most importantly, everything works exactly as it should. That means that they are quite playable and stand up quite well to repeated scrutiny. It's just that the tone is rather uninspiring.

The NI pianos are okay, but there are minor issues with them, be it phantom tones appearing, dynamic surge on let off, pop outs, flawed partial pedalling. They're generally not bad (there are way worse cases out there), but not quite up to the production standard of the VI Labs instruments in my view. I like The Grandeur, but I find it gets wearing after a while. For what it's worth, my usage pattern for American Ds has been almost no usage of the Ivory II American D after an initial test (way too many flaws to be tolerable to my ears), almost no usage of the Production Voices Concert Grand after an initial test (realistic tone, but sounds like a recorded piano with way too much ambient noise), reasonable but decreasing use of The Grandeur, reasonable but decreasing use of the Vintage D (interesting tone, but serious lack of sustain makes it unusable for a lot of repertoire, and the pedal support is poor), and reasonable and actually increasing use of the VI Labs American Grand.

Last edited by karvala; 02/13/18 10:54 AM.

Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713978
02/13/18 12:01 PM
02/13/18 12:01 PM
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Although the three of us seem to agree on, that the VI Labs pianos are lacking, that does not apply to Ravenscroft, only the True Keys trio. I think it (Ravenscroft) is in a league of it's own, among the VI Labs pianos, and even among most other piano VSTs. I really like the tone of it, from what I've heard.


My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713998
02/13/18 01:14 PM
02/13/18 01:14 PM
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I listened to a few of their demos and agree, the Ravenscroft sounds awesome. Clarity yet mean growling bass like a beast lurking within.

Together Garritan CFX on my list to snag when on sale. laugh


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: TheodorN] #2714083
02/13/18 06:03 PM
02/13/18 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by TheodorN
Although the three of us seem to agree on, that the VI Labs pianos are lacking, that does not apply to Ravenscroft, only the True Keys trio. I think it (Ravenscroft) is in a league of it's own, among the VI Labs pianos, and even among most other piano VSTs. I really like the tone of it, from what I've heard.


The Ravenscroft is certainly a step up from the three True Keys pianos, and has notably better dynamic response. It is, in other respects, very much a VI Labs piano to me, though. It has the same reliability, very high playability, but - and this is the part you may not agree with - again issues with it's tone.

I can tell you that it's had the largest downward slide in my usage of any VST; I used it the majority of the time for a short while, but I hardly use it at all now. The one and only reason is that the tone is, in my view, quite cold and with an artificial edge, at least when listened to through headphones. Maybe it's better through studio monitors? Anyway, I find the sound increasingly unpalatable, which essentially prevents me from using it. A pity, because it's very crisp and playable.

Last edited by karvala; 02/13/18 06:04 PM.

Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2714741
02/16/18 04:38 AM
02/16/18 04:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 51
France
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Hello me I use the VST, I go through a kawai es110 (which does not work) connect to an audio interface and then has a vst connect to a sequencer, I use american ivory 2. I play only the classic.

   you can see the rendering on my channel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwmGKHvijj0

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2715050
02/17/18 09:54 AM
02/17/18 09:54 AM
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Just to chime in with my preferences: currently I favor Pianoteq (v6, Bluethner and Grotrian, depending on the mood and the piece); previously I played for about half a year with the CFX lite. I like both, I play classical, intermediate level. Better sound on the CFX and it's pretty much the best sampled VST I've used when it comes to playing, but not as good as PT.
Also, I want to point something out that has been disregarded: for an absolute beginner or close to that (not madshi, just speaking in general), I think it's important to play an acoustic or a standalone digital (set at a proper volume) for a significant time, until some skill is built up, habits formed, expectations set. Otherwise, I believe setting up a VST wouldn't result in the most piano-like setup possible. It may even be very far off and create poor habits and future problems. I don't believe starting on a VST is the way to go.

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: mcoll] #2715138
02/17/18 03:21 PM
02/17/18 03:21 PM
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michaelvi Offline
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Originally Posted by mcoll
for an absolute beginner or close to that (not madshi, just speaking in general), I think it's important to play an acoustic or a standalone digital (set at a proper volume) for a significant time, until some skill is built up, habits formed, expectations set. Otherwise, I believe setting up a VST wouldn't result in the most piano-like setup possible. It may even be very far off and create poor habits and future problems. I don't believe starting on a VST is the way to go.

Interesting statement... Could you please elaborate on it? Do you believe it is true regardless what internal DP sound is - including cases when it kills inspiration?

Anyway, I used this weekend (in my country Fri-Sat) to try Ravenscroft 275, which I bought recently and spent in total ~6 hours with it. As a result I added it to my signature because I will definitely use it. I think I agree with people saying that in general it is better for jazz than classical but still it is very good sound and will suit some classical pieces better than even CFX lite (to my taste of course). True Keys American also sounds better than Vintage D for my ears, but I tried it only briefly and still did not decide whether I would use it regularly (it could happen that in the presence of CFX Lite and Ravenscroft it simply will not find its niche)

Last edited by michaelvi; 02/17/18 03:22 PM.

Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: mcoll] #2715171
02/17/18 05:50 PM
02/17/18 05:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 365
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Originally Posted by mcoll
I think it's important to play an acoustic or a standalone digital (set at a proper volume) for a significant time, until some skill is built up, habits formed, expectations set. Otherwise, I believe setting up a VST wouldn't result in the most piano-like setup possible. It may even be very far off and create poor habits and future problems. I don't believe starting on a VST is the way to go.

You mean because of touch curves which a beginner might set incorrectly?

I think the beginner could do the same with any internal DP sound.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: TheodorN] #2715185
02/17/18 06:54 PM
02/17/18 06:54 PM
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MooganDavid Offline
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Hi I had both Ivory American Grand and Truekeys American Grand and the Truekeys piano was much much better to my ears. Just fuller more realistic and a lot more fun to play.

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2715195
02/17/18 07:53 PM
02/17/18 07:53 PM
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Posts: 140
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Fleer Offline
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For playability, Pianoteq for sure and preferably their subdued Blüthner.
As for samples, did you try the Digital Bechstein by ... Bechstein?
It’s in a class of its own IMO.

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: Fleer] #2715267
02/18/18 03:55 AM
02/18/18 03:55 AM
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michaelvi Offline
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Originally Posted by Fleer
did you try the Digital Bechstein by ... Bechstein?

BTW Bechstein has one HUGE advantage over most (if not all) other libraries - 30-day money-back guarantee. So one who is still looking for a VST can try it risk-free (although I read one PW member's post that risk is that at the end of period you cannot imagine your further life without it, so you will not get your money back smile )


Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2715288
02/18/18 05:36 AM
02/18/18 05:36 AM
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Yes, I meant because of the velocity curve, dynamic range, volume, latency etc. I think it may be too much hassle for a beginner and in the absence of some experience and reference points, it may pose further problems.
It is possible to play at very low volume on a digital too and set unrealistic touch curves, but a little less likely. Possible nonetheless. With a vst, the likelihood increases many fold. I remember when I discovered vsts that I had a hard time going for a realistic setup, even when having plenty of reference points. For a standalone piano, if you use a medium curve and you keep the volume high enough (60-80%) or at a level advised by a teacher, it should be a somewhat realistic setup. Good luck getting help from most teachers concerning vst configuration.

All this being said, I haven't exactly stuck to the rules in my musical journey, and I think enjoyment is the main factor. It always was my way of doing things. Otherwise the journey might come to an untimely halt. But despite the enjoyment factor, if classical piano music is the objective, forming good habits and developing proper technique at the start is essential to progress. Otherwise one may limit himself and develop bad habits that may be hard to overcome later and even suffer injuries over time.

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: mcoll] #2715297
02/18/18 06:45 AM
02/18/18 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mcoll
Yes, I meant because of the velocity curve, dynamic range, volume, latency etc. I think it may be too much hassle for a beginner and in the absence of some experience and reference points, it may pose further problems.
It is possible to play at very low volume on a digital too and set unrealistic touch curves, but a little less likely. Possible nonetheless. With a vst, the likelihood increases many fold. I remember when I discovered vsts that I had a hard time going for a realistic setup, even when having plenty of reference points. For a standalone piano, if you use a medium curve and you keep the volume high enough (60-80%) or at a level advised by a teacher, it should be a somewhat realistic setup. Good luck getting help from most teachers concerning vst configuration.

All this being said, I haven't exactly stuck to the rules in my musical journey, and I think enjoyment is the main factor. It always was my way of doing things. Otherwise the journey might come to an untimely halt. But despite the enjoyment factor, if classical piano music is the objective, forming good habits and developing proper technique at the start is essential to progress. Otherwise one may limit himself and develop bad habits that may be hard to overcome later and even suffer injuries over time.

Thank you mcoll! What you said makes a lot of sense and I will definitely take this into consideration. Although my experience so far seems to be a little different (unless I am missing another important points):
Quite often I do play my Casio without VST. Short daily practices in late evenings of working days - when I am too lazy to wait for computer and VST to start up, so I'm trying to tolerate that awful sound but to perform exercises. Other days I do have patience to wait for VST, plus I always use it in weekends. I don't feel any difference in how I play to get the same volume and dynamics (as much dynamic as I am able to make today). On standalone DP I am suggested to keep volume around 30% and depress keys better (harder, deeper?), I was often complained by teacher that I use too high volume and develop weak fingers, so I forcibly set that limit although I feel better sound at higher volume. When I switch to VST I don't change anything in my playing as I said (unless I don't realize it), volumes are less than at the middle and the only difference I feel it much better sound....
And recently I had a chance to play on a real acoustic. May be a small grand at a train station is not good reference piano, but I indeed felt that its action is heavier and I needed to apply more power to play it, but not significantly more and it took me few minutes to adjust to it. (Probably suggestion to buy PX-760 instead of YDP S31 for its key action that I got here on PW was right one ! smile )


Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: michaelvi] #2715305
02/18/18 07:29 AM
02/18/18 07:29 AM
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mcoll Offline
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Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by mcoll
I think it's important to play an acoustic or a standalone digital (set at a proper volume) for a significant time, until some skill is built up, habits formed, expectations set. Otherwise, I believe setting up a VST wouldn't result in the most piano-like setup possible. It may even be very far off and create poor habits and future problems. I don't believe starting on a VST is the way to go.

You mean because of touch curves which a beginner might set incorrectly?

I think the beginner could do the same with any internal DP sound.


Granyala, I think your point was just proven here:

Originally Posted by michaelvi
On standalone DP I am suggested to keep volume around 30% and depress keys better (harder, deeper?), I was often complained by teacher that I use too high volume and develop weak fingers, so I forcibly set that limit although I feel better sound at higher volume.


The DP set up "incorrectly" with the internal sounds, at the teacher's advice. Q.E.D.
I say "incorrectly", because I have no way of knowing for sure how loud it is, but no DP I ever tried produced a realistic volume at 30%. Nor would I know what "key-hardness" is set. Generally 60-80% seemed like a good target volume, on medium velocity or slightly harder. And for that matter, a teacher with whom I once took some lessons kept her DP (an old Yamaha with a GH action) turned down unrealistically low. Made it very weird to play.
Personally, I try to set a realistic volume, otherwise my feeling of playing a piano goes away, and the dynamic range should not be exagerated. I have seen some playing the CFX with 80% dynamic range. That seems way off to me. 30-40% feels more normal. The same goes for Pianoteq. With extreme values, piano notes are almost hard to hear and forte is blaring. Maybe that only works for recording where one might use a compressor afterwards. But I have no experience with that stuff so I'm simply guessing.
Anyway, those are my personal impressions, they may be wrong just as well smile

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2715311
02/18/18 08:11 AM
02/18/18 08:11 AM
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Thank you mcoll,
it is not first time that I see that my experience with DP sound and my teacher suggestions contradict with other people experience. Probably the best way for me to resolve this dilemma is to get access to a real acoustic from time to time, as you suggested. I am working on it (no, I don't mean that I am working on getting access to that Steinway in our concert hall smile )


Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2715317
02/18/18 08:43 AM
02/18/18 08:43 AM
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mcoll Offline
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Yes, I think having the chance to play from time to time on decent grands is the best way to go about this. And trying to get your setup to behave fairly similarly. But it's not a perfect method, nor is it accessible to everybody.
Don't discard the Steinway so quickly.. Who knows :))

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: mcoll] #2715323
02/18/18 09:20 AM
02/18/18 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by mcoll
Don't discard the Steinway so quickly.. Who knows :))
smile


Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2715336
02/18/18 09:55 AM
02/18/18 09:55 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,271
Raleigh, North Carolina
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I never had troubles setting up realistic volume with my VSTs. Nor did I have problems with velocity curves. (Problems solving the latency issue, yes. Other problems, no. I found it quite easy.)

If ... if volume setting is somehow seen as difficult, why would it be any more so with a VST? Twist a knob! Do it right, or do it wrong. It's the same with a VST as with a standalone piano.

And how can we say that 30% volume setting on the piano is correct? Or how can we say that 80% is correct? Some pianos have big speakers, some have little ones. So have high-power amps, some low power. Some play in a small room, some in a large room.

Even if the right sonic result can be imagined, there surely is not one volume setting on all pianos in all rooms under all circumstances that will suit. So just twist the knob until you get a satisfactory result.

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