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Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: sinophilia] #2713207
02/10/18 02:19 PM
02/10/18 02:19 PM
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Sinophilia, Is it possible that the fingerings you are using are impeding the flow? This invention does not require large hands, but it does require hand and finger independence. I have a Schirmer edition that gives extensive fingering and fingering options. Maybe you could check out other editions. Are you finding that the LH passages are more difficult, especially when descending? You might be able to make those secure by practicing scales using a formula pattern, or other patterns where you are playing descending scales.

Have you seen John Mortensen’s video on grouping and surfacing? It could be helpful for playing this invention.
Grouping and Surfacing



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Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: sinophilia] #2713322
02/10/18 08:28 PM
02/10/18 08:28 PM
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This piece is not easy. mainly because of the jumping of the tune from right to left hand. Also because you have to play the tune in the left hand.

It can be easier if you chunk the music. Take a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef3WpMGamF8

I would adapt the music - if I were struggling I would play some of the quavers as chords or just play the tune with no accompaniment.

What I would do with difficult continuous passages to get even.

- 1st play straight
- 2nd play dotted rhythms
- 3rd play inverse dotted rhythms

For a particularly hard part or jumps, some focus practice.

Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: PianogrlNW] #2713356
02/11/18 03:50 AM
02/11/18 03:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,777
Italy
sinophilia Offline OP

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sinophilia  Offline OP

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Italy
Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Sinophilia, Is it possible that the fingerings you are using are impeding the flow? This invention does not require large hands, but it does require hand and finger independence. I have a Schirmer edition that gives extensive fingering and fingering options. Maybe you could check out other editions. Are you finding that the LH passages are more difficult, especially when descending? You might be able to make those secure by practicing scales using a formula pattern, or other patterns where you are playing descending scales.

Have you seen John Mortensen’s video on grouping and surfacing? It could be helpful for playing this invention.
Grouping and Surfacing


I am using Busoni's edition, and his fingering does not suit me very well, I've changed a lot of it. I will definitely have a look at other editions!

Yes I've seen all Mortensen's video about grouping, and I try to apply it as much as I can (Stannard also talks about it a lot in his books), but transferring those useful concepts to actual practice is not always so easy for me yet.


Diana & Wally - Yamaha W110BW
To create a beautiful sound, one must imagine it at first and then learn to produce fluid physical motions that breathe life into music. (Shirley Kirsten)
http://soundcloud.com/sinophilia - http://youtube.com/sinophilia
Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: sinophilia] #2713368
02/11/18 05:14 AM
02/11/18 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by sinophilia
I feel like I'm going nowhere.
Maybe those who have learnt it can give me a clue as to what makes it difficult? Did you also have some trouble or not at all?


I've started to look a bit at this one.
What makes it more "difficult" might be that a lot of it isn't scalar...The staccato 8th notes are moving a lot in arpeggio fashion, but not necessarily in a "kind" chord arpeggio way.
I find it involves careful fingering along with moving the hand sideways into new positions.
This might be what makes it more challenging.
For me: Learning each hand separately, slow playing with correct timing and note values, and learning to HEAR everything will be the solution.


Czerny's Piano School Vol. 1. Reviewing basics/ear training/analysis in interesting exercises.
Opus 599. Now at #77 and giving it a break.
Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: sinophilia] #2713556
02/11/18 07:14 PM
02/11/18 07:14 PM
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Australia
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I struggled with all five inventions I have learned so far, and only ever was confident with one which I was playing for eighteen months as I worked up to my grade 5 exam. Subsequently I will never underestimate an Invention or expect too much progress after a short time. I have written about this before, but starting a grade 6 Sinfonia (No 8) was a complete shock to the system. The difference between the two grades seems vast at first and my Sinfonia, on paper at least, doesn't look too dissimilar to your Invention. Exactly why the two grades are so different I can't put my finger on, (when there is no obvious technical reason), but there does appear to be a bit more note intensity and a lack of easier sections when one hand is doing little while the other is playing.

I think the tip of marking many more notes than normal has helped me. I take the attitude if I was to start at any single point would I know what finger to use. If there is any doubt I mark it. I doubt I am alone, but I don't enjoy hands separate practice. However this is a really useful tool and switching hands together back to hands separate has shown me weakness's I don't realise when playing hands together. I have a bad habit of making the jump to hands together too soon.

One other thing I have found useful is to stop playing the piece for a little while. Coming back later with renewed enthusiasm and allowing parts of the piece to sink into deeper memory seems to work for me.


Problems with piano are 90% psychological, the other 10% is in your head.

Kawai K8 & Kawai Novus NV10


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Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: earlofmar] #2713605
02/11/18 11:33 PM
02/11/18 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by earlofmar


I think the tip of marking many more notes than normal has helped me. I take the attitude if I was to start at any single point would I know what finger to use.


I do this too with pieces that rely on well thought out fingering so that I can pick any random point to start when I practice.

Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: earlofmar] #2713625
02/12/18 02:31 AM
02/12/18 02:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,777
Italy
sinophilia Offline OP

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I was looking for your input, earlofmar, you're a Bach specialist by now! One of my goals for 2018 is to learn a sinfonia (I picked number 11 because it's very slow and lyrical), and that's probably one reason why I feel so disappointed with my progress with the invention. I thought I could be done with it in two months and then move on to the sinfonia, and also to the Goldberg's Aria, which is challenging in completely different ways. A bit too optimistic overall, I guess. I have a picture of Bach above my piano and he doesn't look pleased at all!


Diana & Wally - Yamaha W110BW
To create a beautiful sound, one must imagine it at first and then learn to produce fluid physical motions that breathe life into music. (Shirley Kirsten)
http://soundcloud.com/sinophilia - http://youtube.com/sinophilia
Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: sinophilia] #2713629
02/12/18 02:42 AM
02/12/18 02:42 AM
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Sinfonia 11 is beautiful, but is also more difficult than it looks on the page. I learned it for my grade 6 exam a couple of years ago, but decided to play the Beethoven instead. Since there are three voices, there are a lot of held notes while another voice is playing in the same hand, and the middle voice moves back and forth between hands. Balancing the three voices effectively is challenging. I loved the piece, but did not feel confident I could do it justice in an exam. Maybe you will have better luck with it!

Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: sinophilia] #2713632
02/12/18 02:57 AM
02/12/18 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by sinophilia
I was looking for your input, earlofmar, you're a Bach specialist by now! One of my goals for 2018 is to learn a sinfonia (I picked number 11 because it's very slow and lyrical), and that's probably one reason why I feel so disappointed with my progress with the invention. I thought I could be done with it in two months and then move on to the sinfonia, and also to the Goldberg's Aria, which is challenging in completely different ways. A bit too optimistic overall, I guess. I have a picture of Bach above my piano and he doesn't look pleased at all!


I do not think you need to fully master the invention before starting a sinfonia. It's a different kind of difficulty. I find the sinfonia I am studying now (nr. 9) easier to learn than that invention. Less mechanical finger work and more brain work.

Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: outo] #2713636
02/12/18 03:54 AM
02/12/18 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by outo


I do not think you need to fully master the invention before starting a sinfonia. It's a different kind of difficulty. I find the sinfonia I am studying now (nr. 9) easier to learn than that invention. Less mechanical finger work and more brain work.


my thinking as well. While I feel I had a lack of success with the Inventions it was none the less all worth it. While I may have had little to present, the experience gained was crucial. After my first attempt at a Sinfonia and a subsequent long break, on my return I have found it a lot easier than an Invention to at least get the notes and other basics right.


Problems with piano are 90% psychological, the other 10% is in your head.

Kawai K8 & Kawai Novus NV10


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Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: sinophilia] #2713721
02/12/18 12:44 PM
02/12/18 12:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,777
Italy
sinophilia Offline OP

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Playing any Bach piece for an exam sounds like a nightmare to me! I tried to play one at the piano party in Milan and have since removed all Bach from my potential recital pieces eek

But I still think that Bach is good for me, and that I will understand him one day. The sinfonia in g minor is indeed difficult - I've only listened to it, analysed it, and read through the first few bars for now - but for some reason it looks like my kind of difficulty (more musical than technical, more brain than fingers, as outo said). I'm pretty sure that it will still take me forever.


Diana & Wally - Yamaha W110BW
To create a beautiful sound, one must imagine it at first and then learn to produce fluid physical motions that breathe life into music. (Shirley Kirsten)
http://soundcloud.com/sinophilia - http://youtube.com/sinophilia
Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: sinophilia] #2713736
02/12/18 01:58 PM
02/12/18 01:58 PM
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Bach's French Suites are another possibility. I played about half of the Two-Part Inventions and found them helpful for technique but never easy. The Suites have been more enjoyable to learn and play (learning some of the Inventions first certainly helped). The difficulty level varies quite a bit amongst the pieces in each suite, so you can pick and choose the ones you want to play.


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Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: sinophilia] #2713753
02/12/18 03:35 PM
02/12/18 03:35 PM
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Sinophilia, I'm also struggling a bit with this piece....playing all the inventions this year and was beating a retreat from #14 and thought I'd do this "easy" one. Hah! I played it when I was young and that's part of the problem...I have older fingerings that I want to lose and do my new fingerings but even after 30 years they are still there. For me, the problem with these pieces is all fingering. There's so many ways to approach things, esp. in this piece. Static hand as much as possible, or walking down the keyboard. In Invention 14, I'd find a new, "better" fingering almost every day! It's often hard for me to sort if I like a fingering because it avoids a weakness of mine (l.h. 4th and 5th fingers in certain situations)...when I should be USING those fingering that use those fingers so I get over my avoidance. Ad when you can't really settle on fingerings, your mind just gets so confused. I think what is really important to remember is that your brain is great at learning, terrible at unlearning. So we need to try really hard to get the fingerings right from the git-go, and play VERY slowly to iron them in. What I found to be odd is that, once I can play a passage securely with one fingering, suddenly it doesn't matter what fingering I use, I can substitute at will! More proof that most of it is in your mind...meaning doubt and cross-thought is the enemy.
I think you are kinda stuck right now. My advice to you, for the $.01 it is worth, is to play at a very very slow tempo what you can WITHOUT ANY MISTAKES a very few times. Then drop it. Don't play it at all. Come back in a few days, or a week, or whenever. You may find it much easier to start again. The idea is to leave with a success, and begin anew with a refreshed mind.

Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: sinophilia] #2713918
02/13/18 07:33 AM
02/13/18 07:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,777
Italy
sinophilia Offline OP

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I just had a look at Bernhard's list of Inventions again, it's grouped by difficulty/pattern, and I noticed how different it is from the Henle and ABRSM/RCM grading.

1. C major, BWV 772 Henle 3, ABRSM 5, RCM 7
4. D minor, BWV 775 Henle 3
7. E minor, BWV 778 Henle 3/4

8. F major, BWV 779 Henle 3/4, ABRSM 5, RCM 7
10. G major, BWV 781 Henle 4, RCM 8
13. A minor, BWV 784 Henle 4, ABRSM 6, RCM 8

15. B minor, BWV 786 Henle 4
14. Bb major, BWV 785 Henle 3/4, ABRSM 6
12. A major, BWV 783 Henle 4

6. E major, BWV 777 Henle 3
11. G minor, BWV 782 Henle 3/4
9. F minor, BWV 780 Henle 3/4
5. Eb major, BWV 776 Henle 3/4
3. D major, BWV 774 Henle 3/4
2. C minor, BWV 773 Henle 4

Number 13 is Henle 4, and that must mean something. Actually I struggled a lot with no. 1, which is supposedly the easiest one, but I had only been playing for two years at the time. Then last year I learnt no. 4 pretty quickly, so now maybe I should try the only remaining Henle 3 invention, i.e. no. 6. And/or go on with the sinfonia or a French suite movement as some of you suggested. I have the "First Lessons in Bach" book, and while I studied all the pieces in part I, I have yet to tackle part II, which includes several movements from French and English suites and is considered preparatory for the inventions. It's a bit depressing that a "first lessons" book is actually made up of pieces from grade 2 up to grade 5 or 6.


Diana & Wally - Yamaha W110BW
To create a beautiful sound, one must imagine it at first and then learn to produce fluid physical motions that breathe life into music. (Shirley Kirsten)
http://soundcloud.com/sinophilia - http://youtube.com/sinophilia
Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: sinophilia] #2713992
02/13/18 12:47 PM
02/13/18 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sinophilia
I just had a look at Bernhard's list of Inventions again, it's grouped by difficulty/pattern, and I noticed how different it is from the Henle and ABRSM/RCM grading.

1. C major, BWV 772 Henle 3, ABRSM 5, RCM 7
4. D minor, BWV 775 Henle 3
7. E minor, BWV 778 Henle 3/4

8. F major, BWV 779 Henle 3/4, ABRSM 5, RCM 7
10. G major, BWV 781 Henle 4, RCM 8
13. A minor, BWV 784 Henle 4, ABRSM 6, RCM 8

15. B minor, BWV 786 Henle 4
14. Bb major, BWV 785 Henle 3/4, ABRSM 6
12. A major, BWV 783 Henle 4

6. E major, BWV 777 Henle 3
11. G minor, BWV 782 Henle 3/4
9. F minor, BWV 780 Henle 3/4
5. Eb major, BWV 776 Henle 3/4
3. D major, BWV 774 Henle 3/4
2. C minor, BWV 773 Henle 4

Number 13 is Henle 4, and that must mean something. Actually I struggled a lot with no. 1, which is supposedly the easiest one, but I had only been playing for two years at the time. Then last year I learnt no. 4 pretty quickly, so now maybe I should try the only remaining Henle 3 invention, i.e. no. 6. And/or go on with the sinfonia or a French suite movement as some of you suggested. I have the "First Lessons in Bach" book, and while I studied all the pieces in part I, I have yet to tackle part II, which includes several movements from French and English suites and is considered preparatory for the inventions. It's a bit depressing that a "first lessons" book is actually made up of pieces from grade 2 up to grade 5 or 6.

It seems to me that the distinction between Henle difficulty level 3 and level 4 probably isn't enough to make your choices obvious. Henle gives a difficulty rating of 5 for the French Suites, so how they fit in a First Lessons book as preparatory for the Inventions is less than clear, at least based on difficulty. (My own impression is that many of the French Suites are Invention-ish in style, and that is how they might serve as preparatory to the Inventions.)

The Inventions are something that can and perhaps ought to be revisited several times over the years. My teacher tells the story about how her teacher took her through the Inventions and when my teacher had finally made it through, she heaved a big sigh of relief. Her teacher then announced that it was time to start them again. I think there was a third time as well. The point being that you get something from them each time as your skills and experience grow.


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Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: sinophilia] #2713995
02/13/18 01:01 PM
02/13/18 01:01 PM
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The Henle difficulty rating seems to be more directed to advanced pianists, and is not very useful for students imo.

Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: sinophilia] #2714003
02/13/18 01:43 PM
02/13/18 01:43 PM
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Italy
sinophilia Offline OP

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I found the Henle rating useful for Schumann, Chopin, and some other things I've learned, but it has to be considered in perspective - their "middle" difficulty group, levels 4 to 6, includes ton of late intermediate and advanced pieces, and if they classify something as difficult, one can pretty much forget about it laugh

While it's probably a long shot to try to learn an entire French or English suite, some of their movements are ABRSM grade 4 or 5, so very well worth a try. Just not gigues!


Diana & Wally - Yamaha W110BW
To create a beautiful sound, one must imagine it at first and then learn to produce fluid physical motions that breathe life into music. (Shirley Kirsten)
http://soundcloud.com/sinophilia - http://youtube.com/sinophilia
Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: sinophilia] #2714012
02/13/18 02:26 PM
02/13/18 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by sinophilia
While it's probably a long shot to try to learn an entire French or English suite, some of their movements are ABRSM grade 4 or 5, so very well worth a try. Just not gigues!


Movements from the French Suites would be a nice progression from the inventions. The English suites with a few exceptions are more difficult.

Some of the little preludes also offer three part textures that are easier to manage than the sinfonias.


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Re: Struggling with Bach Invention 13 [Re: sinophilia] #2714015
02/13/18 02:29 PM
02/13/18 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by sinophilia
.................While it's probably a long shot to try to learn an entire French or English suite, some of their movements are ABRSM grade 4 or 5, so very well worth a try. Just not gigues!
I'm working on a gigue now, and it's a real challenge. "Real challenge" is the family forum approved term. laugh


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