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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: michaelvi] #2713376 02/11/18 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
May be this is good idea for a start-up that will develop a new protection method that would work in library layer? smile

Kontakt is scriptable, then the developper of the script can develop using the available functions. If NI add protection function (read iLok key...), the developper could prevent the access without iLok key, but a cracker could modify this function to make it lying. This would not be perfect too.

I suppose that NI won’t add such function since there is already a protection embedded, even if it not perfect.

Without a Kontakt protection function, there is no way to develop a protection inside the library layer with Kontakt.


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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: Granyala] #2713377 02/11/18 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Granyala
I guess sometimes it's good to be poor. makes you buy less and play more with what you have.

+1 smile

Last edited by michaelvi; 02/11/18 06:46 AM.

Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713378 02/11/18 06:46 AM
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You should be rich enough to be able to buy a good instrument and poor enough to not be able to purchase another one soon wink


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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: Frédéric L] #2713379 02/11/18 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Without a Kontakt protection function, there is no way to develop a protection inside the library layer with Kontakt.

Debatable, but probably not in this forum smile


Started 2016-01-29
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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: michaelvi] #2713385 02/11/18 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by Granyala
I guess sometimes it's good to be poor. makes you buy less and play more with what you have.

+1 smile


-1

It’s never good to be poor! If you don’t believe me, ask a dirt-poor person if being poor is something that has ever come in handy.
Playing “with what you have” is not an ideal situation; playing a Steinway D, on the other hand, is like being in heaven. Heck, even playing a mundane scale on a D feels like an event, a happening, a momentous (slight exaggeration) occasion. Trust me, a Casio SA-76 will not make you a better player no matter how much you play it. By the way, I live in a van down by the river, so I know a thing or two about poverty.

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: Pete14] #2713386 02/11/18 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by michaelvi
Originally Posted by Granyala
I guess sometimes it's good to be poor. makes you buy less and play more with what you have.

+1 smile


-1

It’s never good to be poor! If you don’t believe me, ask a dirt-poor person if being poor is something that has ever come in handy.
Playing “with what you have” is not an ideal situation; playing a Steinway D, on the other hand, is like being in heaven. Heck, even playing a mundane scale on a D feels like an event, a happening, a momentous (slight exaggeration) occasion. Trust me, a Casio SA-76 will not make you a better player no matter how much you play it. By the way, I live in a van down by the river, so I know a thing or two about poverty.

Well, I think the main point of Granyala's post was about being GAS-free and to play more. Hard to disagree


Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: Pete14] #2713415 02/11/18 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
It’s never good to be poor! If you don’t believe me, ask a dirt-poor person if being poor is something that has ever come in handy.
Playing “with what you have” is not an ideal situation; playing a Steinway D, on the other hand, is like being in heaven. Heck, even playing a mundane scale on a D feels like an event, a happening, a momentous (slight exaggeration) occasion. Trust me, a Casio SA-76 will not make you a better player no matter how much you play it. By the way, I live in a van down by the river, so I know a thing or two about poverty.

True. To be honest: I am able to afford a Kawai VPC1 and have a good computer to run VSTi w/o issues.
Measured on a global scale I am a very far cry from being "poor" and I doubt that, being a hobbyist, the VPC1 will hold me back anytime soon..

I'd love to encounter one of those big shot Grand Pianos one day when I have some skills. Would probably be fun.


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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713435 02/11/18 12:04 PM
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Granyala, I’m just kidding around. smile
I don’t live in a van down by the river, and I’ve never seen a Steinway D in person.
I get a little bored on Sundays, so I like to come around here to stir things up a little. I get your point.

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: Cinjero] #2713487 02/11/18 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi
CFX Lite is 25GB on harddisk (uncompressed), but compressed download is only 2.5GB.

That's a whole lot of compression, down to 1/10 of the original size. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but the CFX doesn't use FLAC lossless audio compression, which is probably why it's such a big library. Think we were discussing this some months ago.

By the way, congrats on your Garritan CFX, if there were a one size fits all piano library, CFX could make a good case for claiming to be it.

Cinjero, about the cluster size, that makes sense to me. I learned about clusters in my computer science classes, some years back. Never really understood it, but think it has to do with the data not filling out every cluster, or something like that. Don't correct me if I'm wrong, we don't want this to turn into a computer science forum, LOL!

Productin Grand 2 is a great library, even the Gold version below the full one. If I had gotten it before the CFX, maybe I wouldn't have bought the CFX, but it's nice to have both. The long loading time of PG bothers me, though it loads a bit faster now, probably due to the recent upgrade of Kontakt 5.


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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: TheodorN] #2713491 02/11/18 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TheodorN
Originally Posted by madshi
CFX Lite is 25GB on harddisk (uncompressed), but compressed download is only 2.5GB.

That's a whole lot of compression, down to 1/10 of the original size.

Cinjero, about the cluster size, that makes sense to me. I learned about clusters in my computer science classes, some years back. Never really understood it, but think it has to do with the data not filling out every cluster, or something like that.


I'd love to know how they compress audio data lossless to 1/10th of it's size. Oo

Clusters are the smallest logical memory block the operating system can address. Typically it's 4KB in size. So if you have a 1KB file it will still need 4KB. In todays day and age, the effect can be completely disregarded. We're juggling TBs now, a few KBs no longer matter.
As for size differences: most of that comes from one source calculating with one MB = 1024 KB (etc etc) and the other calculating with 1000. Manufacturers like the 1000 because it gives them nice round numbers for marketing. 2TB drive sounds better than 1.81TB, eh?


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: Granyala] #2713499 02/11/18 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Granyala
I'd love to know how they compress audio data lossless to 1/10th of it's size.

FLAC is very effective.

I am not surprised that piano libraries can be compressed significantly. Most of the audio data is for the long tail of the piano sound after the attack. Let us say, each sample is 20 seconds long. More than 90% of that sound is just decaying string with very low volume. Low volume repetitive data does not require the full 16-bit/44.1kHz resolution and can be compressed fairly efficiently. Also, since compression needs to occur only one time, a very high FLAC compression level can be chosen - that is computationally expensive but reduces the size even more.

Osho


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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713500 02/11/18 03:55 PM
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I suppose the sound of a single note can be compressed lossless easily because at the end, the signal is weak, then there is no such thing to encode.

I don’t know how FLAC function, but a typical encoding could be :

For each sample, guess the most probable value from the previous, code the delta (actual value - guess).

The encoding of FLAC is Golomb-RICE which use few bits for frequent values. Then, instead of coding a delta with 17 bits (-65000 to +65000), the code will be mostly around a few bits. If the guess algorithm is good, -1, 0, and +1 will be quite frequent and could require let’s say 2 or 3 bits. (Between 1/8 and 1/5 of 16bits, the original size). 1/10 of the size seems me low (1.6 bits per sample ! It could be achieved if the 0 value is very very frequent)

Having tried a long C4 note : 5771ko WAV, 824ko FLAC (1/7 of the WAV file).


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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713519 02/11/18 04:48 PM
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As Osho said, they can use lower bit-depth for the decays. Remember this is not a real-time decompression, it’s used only for the one-off installation and can rely on multiple passes (attacks from one set of files, the rest from other), heuristics, high-compression ratios (intensive CPU), etc.

Last edited by CyberGene; 02/11/18 04:49 PM.

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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713532 02/11/18 05:28 PM
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FLAC encoding uses subframe which have each their own parameters. One parameter will be adequate for attacks, and will be reduced to the best during the decay. This parameter is directly related with needed bitdepth. Heuristics are already used (called predictions which can even use the 32 previous samples, but I suppose most FLAC encoders don’t go so far).

Perhaps my 1/7 conversion was made quickly (with an online Web converter). I should perhaps try again with a soft I control the parameters. Perhaps also the CFX samples are longer than what I have.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: CyberGene] #2713592 02/11/18 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Remember this is not a real-time decompression...


I thought that the decompression was in real-time (i.e. the samples are stored in a compressed state on the disc, and decompressed when played) - are you saying that the compression is only to reduce the download size, and that once installed, all of the sample data is decompressed?

Kind regards,
James
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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: Kawai James] #2713602 02/11/18 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Remember this is not a real-time decompression...


I thought that the decompression was in real-time (i.e. the samples are stored in a compressed state on the disc, and decompressed when played) - are you saying that the compression is only to reduce the download size, and that once installed, all of the sample data is decompressed?

Kind regards,
James
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That is certainly the case for Garritan's CFX Grand. The files are decompressed as they are installed and remain de-compressed on your hard disk. The installation takes a while.


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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713620 02/12/18 02:02 AM
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^^James, yes. Installation file for CFX Lite is 2GB and the installed application is 20GB.


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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713627 02/12/18 02:41 AM
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Okay, thanks chaps.

How about for the VI Labs pianos?

Kind regards,
James
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"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713634 02/12/18 03:38 AM
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I only have CFX Lite and Compact Classic Grand. The CFX Lite explodes from 2.5GB download to 20GB+ installation. The Compact Classic Grand is 2.8GB download and 2.9GB after installation. Compact Classic Grand actually has all the samples as FLAC files.

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713838 02/12/18 08:42 PM
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VI Labs pianos remain compressed on the hard drive and are decompressed in real time.

Last edited by karvala; 02/12/18 08:42 PM.

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