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If anything, I would consider myself a "Steinway guy".

I don't play digital pianos all that often in general these days.....except at NAMM.



Maybe something's lost in the translation but I don't see how my preference for a stage piano - one that I use infrequently and another I sold 3.5 years ago - and how either fares through a sound system/ PA is relevant to anything I posted, or what is being discussed in this thread about hybrid digital pianos.



Still not seeing the connection with either hybrid being discussed but I do as well and certainly agree with you.

Dear Dave,
thanks a lot for your answers! Sorry I have not written to your post yesterday, 10:00 PM. But you have addressed a number of very important things that I want to address conscientiously. Only for that I need time. I hope I get to it on Tuesday. The topic is quite difficult and needs a certain amount of detail. But that's not up to you, it's the thing per se.
For me you belong to those PW-members who ask the "right questions", see your post from 03/30/17 and later on, see also below P.S ..
Others do the same for other very important topics, e.g. the issues with the UI/Touchscreen.

In fact, I do not mean myself "As a private amateur pianist…" but even with [...]"as long as you are" [...] I definitely not mean you! To mean you would be somewhat outrageous on my part. My apologies if you misunderstood as addressed an amateur. That was definitely not my intention.
In the German language in a discussion with strangers you can address things with "you" without meaning himself with whom you speak, but the reference here is meant abstractly, without meaning anyone in the round. In this case “you” are indefinite people outside, i.e. “all amateurs” not: “You Dave as an amateur…”.
I do not know if there is such a thing in the Dutch language either. The problem is that I think and dream in German and then try to translate into English ... read later for a Dutchman, from you (and from others). Of course it would be much easier for me to write in German. It would also be much faster and much more precise. But I’m afraid that would be unreasonable here in the forum. So I try to give also my best as far as English is concerned. Probably JoBert and other Germans are from the stand better in English.

I learn from this that I have to pay even more attention to the fact that through my translations (and sometimes with the help of a translation-tool) possible misunderstandings do not occur.
For my post of yesterday 09:00 PM I need, for example much longer time to write this halfway clean in English as an American or English member. This is one of the reasons why I write much less posts here than others.

By the way, since I'm also visting sometimes hotels and music colleges (Musikhochschulen) to "spy" on other pianists (that's what every colleague does), I am often surprised by whoever acts as an professional and plays for Gage or gets an applause. Often their "art" is anything but "professional". I know some amateurs who cannot even read music and are really gifted pianists. Being amateur is no shame! …for all here who are not “professionals”. On the other hand, many so called "professionals" should not perform publicly, because you can hear if someone does not have fun playing the piano. Of course you - here we are: not you Dave - can also be totally untalented and do not know it. That makes me really angry because such pianists take the place to others and better.

With best regards, Frank.
Your collegue!


P.S .: I've been following the NV10 threads since the end of March last year. Especially your post, Dave, of 03/30/17 about the size (depth) of the KAWAI Millennium III-keyboard of the NV10 in relation to its corresponding KAWAI grand model I found very interesting! I thought to myself: "These are just the right questions! Hopefully he will not let up and will get answers." In fact, you have posted your question several times after that. The last time I mean was on 12/20/17. That really impressed me and was one of the reason to pursue the corresponding NV10 threads. That's why I wrote you in your own thread "Kawai in the Netherlands" when you were looking for a suitable dealer in your area.

And now I hope this post gets a bit more interesting to all here:
As far as I can remember, Kawai James has had no response to your questions from 03/30/17 and several other posts from you Dave, regarding this topic, even if this specific question was not explicitly addressed to him, AFAIK. But just because it was here by a number of members last year for quite a long period of time about exactly this topic, especially in relation to the AvantGrand series, I would have expected an answer from Kawai James. It is really irritating. What is there to hide?

The topic "leverage" is also not too complex. In particular, because here are some very interested members who want to understand these things. But although, this is about much more than just the so-called "pivot-length". To know that one length is indeed only one clue, but indeed an important one. Another important measure is the length between the pivot-point and the center of the capstan screw (center or focus of the so called “Pilote”) or otherwise: the length from the leading edge of the key to the capstan-screw minus the length from the leading edge of the key to the pivot-point (center of the " Balance rail key pin "). And even both values do not yet describe the entire lever-travel, which goes then through the wippen (Hebeglied) to the point of the hammer-head, which defines the contact-point with the string, of course even with hybrid-action, where no strings are!

These at least two values together give a lot of information about what size of action you have "in front of you", a so called “concert-grand action” (approx. 270cm and even longer) or a so called “baby-grand action ” (approx. 145cm to 170cm) or in between a “salon-grand action” to “semi-concert-grand action”.
Probably a first clue is the “overall keystick-length”, cause as easy as it is, a really long concert-grand-keystick will actually not have a very short baby-grand-front lever way (pivot-length). But actually the total length of the key stick does not say a lot.

Two other very, very important values are the “key dip” (Tastentiefgang), which you can measure yourself with a ruler, and the hammer distance to the strings (Steighöhe), which is a bit difficult to define in a hybrid-piano. Of more importance here is the route of the shutter opening – the shutter is mounted on the hammer-shank (Hammerstiel) near the hammer-knuckle (Hammerröllchen).

The “key dip” should be about 9,5 to 10,5mm (6/16 in. to just before 7/16 in.). Don’t press the key down with pressure, otherwise you could get key-dips arround 13-14mm. This also depends on the quality of the “front rail punchings”. (Vorderdruckscheiben+Vorderstiftgarnierung). Just press down in a manner that the key is put on the rail punchings with good contact to it. Feel when the key touches the punchings with the presseure of let's say p (for piano), but then it should be nearer to 9,5mm and not more. If harder, then 10mm.

Would be interesting to read, what is measured here. Could you probably do this with some keys from bottom to top @ JoBert and @ Gombessa and you @ Dave? Would surely be helpful to all.

Incidentally, what worries me about the AvantGrand series are the extremely many lead-weights that are built into the keys. This is not good at all, and indicates that the front lever, the pivot-length, is too short to save at least two of these weights in a key. But that would be absolutely desirable. A lot of lead in the keys is obviously needed to handle unfavorable leverage at the front. As a result, however, new problems arise due to the inertia of the higher mass. Remedy would have brought here either with a lighter hammer-head and/or a lighter hammer-core or just a correspondingly longer front-lever section to compensate better for the total weight of the rear lever-section (part of the keystick behind the balance rail pin (Waagebalkenstift) with wippen (Hebeglied) and hammer) without so much lead. The first alternative - lighter hammer heads and/or hammer cores - maybe wasn’t already possible, since this weight was perhaps already calculated as minimal as possible and there was no further margin down.

A last thing for today, which is a real ugly issue, and I’m sure, that you, James, as KAWAIs digital piano specialist, could help very efficiently for the NV10 units which will be built in the future: It seems that the felt below the fallboard stands out too little from the fallboard. It should have a distance perhaps about 1mm to the back side of the upper-keys (Obertaste) but not more. And it seems that the fallboard probably has a bit too much distance to the upper-keys. The bare wood area behind the standardized white key-tops and the black upper-keys really should not be visible when the fallboard is fully opened. I'm sure you've seen the pictures in some posts above.

For my humble opinion that's a matter of quality control in the KAWAI plant in Indonesia. AFAIK there are always some officers from KAWAI Japan in the house, that can be asked if anything is “not clear”. Knowing the serial-number of the affected NV10, they could definitely check out, who was responsible to sign off the accompanying ticket/note before the instrument was packed. I think they should really know, that there is/are customer(s) on the other side of the world who really care about such things. Such issues should be stopped immediately. So, maybe it's the right way to get in contact with the quality manager there, please? I do not know if that still is Mr. Suyono.

And in addition, maybe it should also be considered, whether one rather uses the red felt under the fallboard instead of the black one? That looks simply more elegant and valuable for my opinion, as I believe others have already mentioned here in this or other threads.
In other words: why not use the black felt on the KAWAI acoustic grands instead of the red ones?
No, I think the expectation is: red.
For BECHSTEIN: probably green. I know, KAWAI once used: blue.

Thank you James, if you can help.

For those interested in getting some insights into the work of KAWAI Indonesia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OPT3A6e8TU

Beginning at 4:33 you can see very nicely how the keyframe is prepared to insert the keysticks into the key pins. You can also see how the white key-tops are polished. Finally some regulation work on the mechanics of the action.

Sorry, if some of you already should know this clip.

Frank,

Interesting post I think the right way to say what you are trying to say is "one can do.." instead of "you can do.." in English

I agree red felt will look much better. That is partly why I like Yamaha's DP look.

I also agree that there seems to be quality control issue with early Kawai Novus NV10 if you can see inside wood in one case and not in another case. Hope Kawai clears this up soon.

Osho

What I saw yesterday was a lot worse than what Gombessa showed. But then again, my eyes could be bad. I obviously don't know the difference between a sticker and decal

As somebody who speaks both languages: it's exactly the same in German or English: "you" could mean a specific person or a theoretical person or people. It depends on the context and the skill of the person in conveying the message. It's slang/spoken language so context is critical. Forums tend to be in a conversational style rather than scientific discourse mode - that's why misunderstandings happen pretty frequently. Scientific discourse uses precise terms and things like "you" are rarely misunderstood.

Just for minor clarification, I hold a Dutch passport and speak some Dutch. My first passport comes from the US.

Without being political, I can safely state that Francis Martin's command of English is better than the current US President. (That's not much of a compliment, but it's a compliment just the same. )

Dave,
I'm just shaking with laughter. Really, that's great.
You made me cofveve! ...or was it covfefe? Don't know. So sad.
Glad to know you, Dave.

Osho,
I was really thinking of asking a native-speaker, because I was not sure if it would be better in future to write :
Trump: "As long as one knows, that Air Force One is my plane." Bob Mueller: "You mean, it's your Air Force One?" Trump: "Yes. I have actually two Air Force Ones". Bob Mueller: "Oh, I see. Do you actually know the 25th amendment?" Trump: "What for?" Bob Mueller: "For you." Trump: "Right! I'm the greatest President of the US of A. All amendments are mine."

Sounds a bit strange, but obviously it is better English.
Thank you Osho. Of course, I don't wanna end like Trump!!

ando,
Respect. That was really accurate.This answer could have come from Spock. You could write dialogues for "Star Trek" movies or for the next "Star Wars"-Episode, especially for C3PO.
I didn't know, that I would be able to write in English slang. I feel valued.

By the way, you can be really happy, that you have such a great piano-Inventor in Australia: Wayne Stuart and his STUART & SONS grands. Theses grands are sonically unbelievable good. Far ahead of probably any other manufacturers. My opinion.

I really like you guys!

Lol, that sounds like a pretty fun job actually!

Your English is very good, don't worry.



Yes, the Stuart and Sons pianos are magnificent. I've heard them but never had the chance to play one. They have a beautiful rich sound and gorgeous appearance with natural wood finishes. If I ever won the lotto, they would be in my top 5 to consider. The others would be Bösendorfer, Fazioli, Steinway, Yamaha SX. 9-foot, of course, just right for my newly built backyard concert hall - a big win in the lotto allows many things!

Hi genuse,

Sorry I didn't respond to your post earlier. Frankly, I'm not sure I'm up to snuff as a pianist to be able to really comment on technique at that level! But I will say that no matter how fast I repeat notes (3-2-1 or alternating hands), the NV-10 absolutely keeps up. No issues at all repeating while the keys have only partially returned, either.

As to gliss, it's not as featherweight-effortless as some pianos, as you've mentioned. But it's just fine. I play on some oldish uprights (Yamaha U3s mainly) and some of those are absolutely impossible to gliss.




Haha, maybe one day. But unless Kawai James chimes in about it being something I should be concerned about, neither the distance of the back of the keys to the fallboard or the visibility of the wooden keysticks bothers me. I think you might be right that was some movement during shipping, though I would imagine the action is secured to the frame somehow rather than just sliding around free in there?

One more quick pic for the day. I worked a bit on cable management, mainly trying to eliminate the clutter from the laptop/VST. I put a command strip hook on the wall behind the piano to route the headphone and USB cable in a more hidden way behind the NV-10. I also fixed a cable holder next to the headphone hook so it's not just hanging down from the back. The headphone hook itself is not big enough for the heavily padded HD598 headband so I'm using a printed hook. I'm thinking about pulling the piano further from the wall by a couple of inches so that I can completely hide the surge protector on the floor.

Have you considered a Mac mini? You could mount it on the wall behind the piano for the cleanest look possible.

Maybe, but going headless wouldn't work too well for me at the moment. I still have to occasionally restart CFX or reboot the Mac (or change settings), and that's a bit of a hassle.

Nice photos Gombessa - that looks like a good place to play. Hope you are enjoying your new toy.

Do you notice a sound difference using speakers with the music up?

Did you try different velocity curves & dynamic ranges in Garritan CFX?

A few superfical thoughts:

> I would consider mounting or hanging your power strip under the piano so it is out of sight rather than moving the unit.

> The headphone cable looks like a tripping hazard. Or if it catches on someone's foot could ruin the headphone jack on the kawai / headphone cable. I can't think of a good gizmo for that other than maybe winding a long loop around the hangar each time you put the headphones down.

> Not sure if a low table would be less precarious for the laptop. Similar risk of breaking usb-in on the Kawai / destroying laptop / damaging nice flooring.

Hello Dave,

Thank you for sharing your comments about the NV10.



Please don't take this the wrong way, however over in the Keyboard Corner forum, you mentioned playing the NV10 for less than 30 seconds at NAMM.

Am I correct in thinking that that was an understatement?

Kind regards,
James
x

Hi Gombessa, just for info: At least in the acoustic grands of most brands, the action does indeed slide around free, as explained in the video.

Daniel

That's interesting. If the action can slide freely, what happens to the action when the acoustic grand piano is transported?

Osho

I can see that NV-10 has no wheels. Is it easy to move inside the house? Wouldn't it be risky to move the piano? I mean, the junctions could crack.

With 130kg, the NV10 is very heavy. I would not slide it around, in fear of putting torque/shear stress on legs and base unit, except very carefully for small distances, e.g. to move a few centimeters or so into place. To move it around more, you I would want to lift and carry it. For this you have to have two strong people, having three wouldn't hurt. Lifting it on the main body is no problem though, it's very sturdy. That's how the piano movers brought it into our apartment: They took the main body out of the huge box that it came in and, still wrapped in the protective padding, carried it up two flights of stairs. (It would have been impossible to carry in the delivery box, both because it would have been a very tight fit on the stairs, and because that box doesn't have any handles where you can grip it.)

Here's an update after my first week with my new NV10:

I'm happy to report that I'm fully in the rose-colored glasses honeymoon happiness phase with my new Novus.

All those things that I wrote about in my opening post, that I would have to get used to? I've done that. I don't even notice anymore that the pedal is further back below the piano. I've adjusted to the higher music rest (although I did some modding there, see below). The different touch? I can hardly remember how my CA97 felt different, that much I've adjusted to the new feel of Novus. The different sound? Same thing. I love the sound of the Novus' speakers and have totally gotten used to the different character of the sound projection. I also love pianist mode sound over headphones. - As you can see, honeymoon phase all the way!

Apart from playing the piano, I also did a bit of DIY home improvement around the piano, for my new piano corner (the CA97 was flush against the wall in a different spot in the room), so if you are interested in that, please read on...

As I wrote about when I posted the first picture, I had to move the fire place a bit further along on the wall, so that it isn't so close to the piano, and I got and installed a new lamp for the piano. I'm very happy with the results:



And as I said, I did a bit of modding with the piano rest: Even in the most steepest angle, it was still angled back a bit too much for my taste. I wanted a stepper angle. I understand that such a steep angle does not make sense with paper books or single sheet scores, as the books would likely fall closed and the sheets would fold in on themselves, but since I'm almost exclusively playing the score from my tablet, I prefer the tablet to be steeper, i.e. more aligned to my viewing direction. Also when angled back to much, the glassy surface of the tablet would reflect the ceiling and piano lamps, making it impossible to read the score (a problem that you of course never have with paper scores).

So I took a strip of self adhesive felt, folded double so that it sticks to itself and not the piano (with a thin additional strip in the "knee" of the fold, for a tad of extra thickness) and zip-tied it to the piano rest strut:



So now, the strut is a bit longer than before and if set into the highest groove, the music rest is a bit steeper. Exactly that bit more that I needed for my tablet:



And as you can see in the first image, the piano is not flush against the wall but has a niche behind it that is large enough so that one can comfortably access the book case. So of course I needed to do something about the cables, so that there wouldn't be any tripping hazards. Plus, I wanted a three socket power outlet near the piano, so that I could plug in not only the piano but also the tablet and, in the future, possibly a VST computer. With all this installed, this is how it now looks behind my piano:



The grey strip is a floor cord cover that is low enough to fit below the ~15mm of space under the piano, so I could make it long enough to extend under the piano. From there the cable loops back out and feeds into the three socket outlet, where the piano is plugged in (the piano's cable also loops beneath the piano at first, as you can see in the front of the picture, and then loops back out again into the socket). The power supply for the tablet is also plugged in there, with the USB power cable to the tablet going straight up. You can see the latter a bit better in this picture:



In the picture above, about half way up the back of the piano (below the Kawai logo), I co-opted a back panel screw to (non-destructively) attach a zip-tie, to which in turn the cable is attached with a velcro tie. Then another such zip-tie/velcro-tie combo is attached to the music rest strut near the top, to hold the cable up if I unplug it from the tablet. I used velcro ties, so that I can easily detach the cable in case I need to take it with me.

Very nice setup, Jobert. Looks great!

Happy honeymoon!!