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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: MacMacMac] #2713240
02/10/18 04:37 PM
02/10/18 04:37 PM
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madshi Offline OP
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I don't know anyone who EXPECTED me to spend thousands on VSTs ...
Originally Posted by madshi
Do you really expect people to buy 20 VSTis for several thousand dollars, so they can choose the one which best matches their personal taste?
... but I did. smile

Which makes your list of VSTs and how you rate them (found that in another thread) very interesting. And yes, I know that my taste could be completely different.

You didn't try/buy Garritan CFX yet, though? Didn't see that in your list.

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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713245
02/10/18 04:51 PM
02/10/18 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi
Originally Posted by Granyala
I find it odd that people ask others for advice about what is the "best" in terms of sound. Sound is such a personal thing, there is -0- possibility of giving a proper recommendation.

I find it odd that you find it odd. What are the alternatives to asking for recommendations? Do you really expect people to buy 20 VSTis for several thousand dollars, so they can choose the one which best matches their personal taste? Maybe professional users can afford that, but private/hobby users like me certainly can't (or are not willing to).

What I find even more odd is that VST companies seem to expect users to shell out the big money, just based on marketing and some random demo MP3s. Why is Pianoteq pretty much the only company offering a proper evaluation? That only works because so many users seem to be willing to buy "blind" (or rather "deaf"). If users refused to buy VSTs which can't be properly evaluated then VST companies would have no other choice than to offer proper evaluation options.

(Sorry for the little rant.)

No one but your ears can tell you what sounds good to you. Others can point out general characteristics (harsh/bright/mellow/neutral etc) but in the end it is the same as it is with headphones: YOU have to put them on and try them.

I absolutely feel you when it comes to "no demo available". In fact, that is one reason why I am not buying Garritan CFX straight away because I fear that I might not like it when >I< "play" it (beginner here).
Ofc it sounds superb when played by experienced folks. What doesn't?

I filled out the survey for Pianoteq and commended them on having the courtesy of providing ab test version. Such a rare thing in this day and age.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: newer player] #2713246
02/10/18 04:53 PM
02/10/18 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by newer player
Originally Posted by michaelvi
My guess is that it also depends on usage scenario - playing for yourself with headphones, with monitors, or making recordings and publish them - I think this is where mic perspective and positions should vary?


Good question. There are lots of options in Garritan CFX but I always return to the default full.
Personally, at this point of time I am only interested in setup which is best for practicing, with headphones.(Once a week I'll turn on monitors for 1 hour lesson). My internal piano sound is crap (sorry Casio) - it was selected as a best option for its keyboard action within my budget at that time and I do not regret it - thanks PW again!
When I'll reach level of playing for others and (OMG) publish my recordings - I think by that time there will be many other options that I don't have today.


Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: Granyala] #2713255
02/10/18 05:20 PM
02/10/18 05:20 PM
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madshi Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Granyala
No one but your ears can tell you what sounds good to you. Others can point out general characteristics (harsh/bright/mellow/neutral etc) but in the end it is the same as it is with headphones: YOU have to put them on and try them.

In an ideal world I would love to test all the VSTs, but when it's not possible (because there's no evaluation version available), the next best thing is to ask other users which VSTs they like for classical music. It's a far less useless question than you make it sound. Obviously, some users will recommend one thing, others another. But if the "crowd" often mentioned maybe 2 or 3 specific VSTs and if they don't mention (or even discredit) some other VSTs, then that's all useful information. Granted, it's not perfect, and there's no guarantee that the crowd's favorites will please me, but it's the best information I can get without buying all the VSTs myself, so I'll gladly make do with that imperfect information.

Practically, the proof is in the pudding: Asking for recommendations worked very well for me. I'm really happy with Garritan CFX, and I wouldn't have bought it, if I hadn't started this thread.

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713258
02/10/18 05:35 PM
02/10/18 05:35 PM
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Pianoteq has a small footprint and is easier to redistribute as a demo. Not so much with multigigabyte libs. BTW, Vintage D used to work in demo mode if not registered. Although wrong, you could download it from a pirated site and install in a legally downloaded Kontakt player and it would work in demo mode. Why that was not officially allowed is not clear. When I purchased it later it turned out the officially downloaded Vintsge D distribution was bit-identical to the pirated one. So I only obtained a license to use it. On pirated websites what they do is to give you a cracked Kontakt app so that you can use the samples not just in demo mode. I believe that might be the reason why Kontakt libs are not given as demos although in practice they work like that. Because with a single pirated Kontakt you would be able to access multiple libs at once.


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713262
02/10/18 05:50 PM
02/10/18 05:50 PM
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Honestly,. I don't buy the logistics argument. This is 2018 not 1995. Bandwidth is hardly an issue any longer.

MMORPGs like World of Warcraft or Final Fantasy XIV are around 50GB in client size. These companies offer demos that DL the entire client.

There are infinitely more people downloading these huge mainstream games compared to a few folks that would DL big and honkin', highly specialized VST libraries.

Also, they could cut out mic perspectives for the demo version to trim it down.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713265
02/10/18 06:01 PM
02/10/18 06:01 PM
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madshi Offline OP
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Exactly, Compact Classic Grand and CFX Lite were around 2.5 GB downloads each. That's really small by today's standards.

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713268
02/10/18 06:05 PM
02/10/18 06:05 PM
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My Production Grand 2 Gold was 54GB. It was available for download, in 30 zip files. The PV webpage says 58GB, but when I look at my maps for it in Windows Explorer, it's 54GB. Possibly a difference between binary and decimal measuring, but still well over 50GB.

Edit The full Production Grand 2, 207GB compressed, is available for download at purchase. Of course, it's one thing to offer the VSTi for download when bought, and another to offer such a gigantic library as a demo, since that would mean a lot more people would download it, or want to download it.

Edit2 Isn't the CFX Lite 22GB, or 25GB, in download size?

Last edited by TheodorN; 02/10/18 06:13 PM.

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Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713273
02/10/18 06:14 PM
02/10/18 06:14 PM
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I'm sure there are ways to cut down on size for a demo version w/o having to compromise the instrument. You could probably delete half the velocity layers w/o people even realizing.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713274
02/10/18 06:16 PM
02/10/18 06:16 PM
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madshi Offline OP
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CFX Lite is 25GB on harddisk (uncompressed), but compressed download is only 2.5GB.

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713277
02/10/18 06:31 PM
02/10/18 06:31 PM
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There's a difference between File-size and Disk-size for Windows based systems. The difference usually depends on the cluster size created when the disk was formatted.

Production Grand is a beast, but you can cut the "full" version down by just offloading the version you don't use. I use the max version (Platinum) and just moved off the other ones off disk to backup.

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713284
02/10/18 06:50 PM
02/10/18 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi
Originally Posted by Granyala
No one but your ears can tell you what sounds good to you. Others can point out general characteristics (harsh/bright/mellow/neutral etc) but in the end it is the same as it is with headphones: YOU have to put them on and try them.

... But if the "crowd" often mentioned maybe 2 or 3 specific VSTs and if they don't mention (or even discredit) some other VSTs, then that's all useful information.

@Granyala Just apply probability theory here and you will see that if one starts their search from those 2 or 3 specific VSTs and puts those others at the end of "buy to try" queue (de-facto the only option, pirated sites aside) then chances to pick right ball are much better than if they built that queue randomly or (even worse) following marketing attacks (number of ads appearing on their web pages)
Look, OP of this thread was satisfied with his very first purchase (of current round) following "crowd" suggestions. What are chances that without asking this this question he could achieve the same result? There are very small. I was a bit less lucky and (almost) found what I need after ~8th purchase, but still, when I am looking on my initial list I see that without asking questions I could easily make ~25-30 purchases (wasted)
Of course everyone here agree that BUYER has to put them on and try them. The whole meaning of such questions here is "in what order to try them"


Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713292
02/10/18 07:38 PM
02/10/18 07:38 PM
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No, I haven't tried the CFX. I think that's a Yamaha, so I wouldn't like the sound.
Originally Posted by madshi
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I don't know anyone who EXPECTED me to spend thousands on VSTs ...
Originally Posted by madshi
Do you really expect people to buy 20 VSTis for several thousand dollars, so they can choose the one which best matches their personal taste?
... but I did. smile
Which makes your list of VSTs and how you rate them (found that in another thread) very interesting. And yes, I know that my taste could be completely different.

You didn't try/buy Garritan CFX yet, though? Didn't see that in your list.
And I won't likely be buying any more VSTs. I have more than I need.

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713294
02/10/18 07:46 PM
02/10/18 07:46 PM
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Yes, downloads are fast. At 100 Mbps you can download 1 GB in about a minute and a half ... assuming the other guy's server can spit it out as fast as you can take it.

I remember the dial-up days ... when I'd think twice about trying to download something as "big" as a couple of MB. How quaint that seems now. smile

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713315
02/10/18 09:02 PM
02/10/18 09:02 PM
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The CFX is a Yamaha, but not a C7. I think its more of a match with a Ravenscroft because they are "balanced pianos."

After purchasing the Production Grand, I don't think I'll be getting any others; other than PV's Steinway (maybe) but also Hans Zimmer's piano (maybe).

Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: MacMacMac] #2713343
02/11/18 03:23 AM
02/11/18 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I remember the dial-up days ... when I'd think twice about trying to download something as "big" as a couple of MB. How quaint that seems now. smile


And thinking "Do I really need to go to that image-heavy website right now?" because you paid by the minute. laugh

@michaelvi & @madshi: I am sorry if I came across as "your question is nonsensical". That is not what I meant. What I meant is that asking for us for "what sounds best" is misguided because there is no such thing.

Asking other pianists what they like, why and how it plays is different from asking "what is the best sound" and I completely agree that it is useful. I stumbled upon Pianoteq in this forum because a member praised it and I got curious. I doubt that I would ever have learned of VSTi if I hadn't researched my DP purchase here for the past few months. I also see that Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ravenscroft and Ivory II seem to be liked around here and that @Mac likes the Kawai EX pro VST. That is all valuable information to cut down on the list of unknowns.

PS: 8 purchases... at 100€+ a pop? Ouch. I'm waay too poor for that kind of Trial and Error. >.<


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: Granyala] #2713358
02/11/18 05:03 AM
02/11/18 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Granyala
PS: 8 purchases... at 100€+ a pop? Ouch. I'm waay too poor for that kind of Trial and Error. >.<
Fortunately I didn't pay such amounts . Except my very first purchase (Vintage D) for all following I caught sales (bundle of 3 TrueKeys pianos was 74% off, Ravenscroft 50% off, PV pianos were from 55% to 75% off during Black Friday, even CFX Lite I got for 50$ instead of 60 smile ) But still yes, big money were spent here.. ((

Last edited by michaelvi; 02/11/18 05:03 AM.

Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: CyberGene] #2713360
02/11/18 05:14 AM
02/11/18 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
On pirated websites what they do is to give you a cracked Kontakt app so that you can use the samples not just in demo mode. I believe that might be the reason why Kontakt libs are not given as demos although in practice they work like that. Because with a single pirated Kontakt you would be able to access multiple libs at once.

May be this is good idea for a start-up that will develop a new protection method that would work in library layer? smile


Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: CyberGene] #2713372
02/11/18 07:22 AM
02/11/18 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Gear Acquisition Syndrome

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_Acquisition_Syndrome

Time to visit my psychotherapist again?...


Started 2016-01-29
Casio Privia PX-760 => Garritan CFX Lite, Ravenscroft 275 => Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 =>ATH-40mx, Sennheiser HD598, JBL LSR305
Re: Which VSTi for classical music? [Re: madshi] #2713375
02/11/18 07:40 AM
02/11/18 07:40 AM
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I guess sometimes it's good to be poor. makes you buy less and play more with what you have.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
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