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Joined: Feb 2018
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MacMacMac I agree with you especially for a studio instrument. the Kawai MP11 SE looks promisingto me. I have not had a chance to test it out yet but It seems to me that the action is an improvement upon the current VPC1. It has the Grand Feel action: http://www.kawaius.com/digital/MP/mp11SE_main.html. The Kawai CA98 has the Grand Feel II action. Correct me if you think I am incorrect but the only difference between the two as far as I can tell is the material on the surface of the keys: http://www.kawaius.com/digital/Features/actions.html
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CA98 is $4000, VPC1 is $1500. That means a upright piano frame and sound system cost $2500. NU1X costs $6000, so a real acoustic action only controller costs $3500.
That's an upright action. Kawai Millennium III carbon fibre grand action is far more advanced than that - also remember the simulated damper mechanism. Also factor in the use of the hammer sensor technology. The NU1X uses only key sensor technology and it's causing strange triggering behaviour (that was a cost saving measure). Factor in all that and you quickly get to $6,000, and possibly sail right past it.
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Correct me if you think I am incorrect but the only difference between the two as far as I can tell is the material on the surface of the keys You can read about differences between GF and GFII actions here.
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That's just fine! The Novus is 25 inches deep. That's only four inches deeper than my midrange Clainova. My concern over a "jumbo" piano comes from the dimensions of an AG N3, nearly 48 inches. It gives a nice appearance, but I don't have the space. I don't need to jumbo enclosure that looks like a newborn baby grand. I'm not sure if your "jumbo" classification includes the NV10, N1 and N2, but if it does, then I fear that this wish: I'd like to buy a digital piano with a grand action. will never be fulfilled. I can assure you, the the size of the NV10 cabinet is mostly due to the size of the action and the long key sticks. And I assume it's the same for the N1 and N2. Designers may be able to shave off a few cm here and there, but essentially, that's simply the size you need to house a grand action. BTW, the weight too. >100kg for the main body (without base and legs) in case of the NV10. That too comes mainly from the action. So regarding size, the Novus does fulfill my wishes. As to the price ... $12,000. Nope.
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If you negotiate you can get it for less than that (even day zero).
I'd love to see a speakerless, toneless NV-VPC as well, but I agree with Ando, the price would likely be much closer to 6k+ than 3k.
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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CA98 is $4000, VPC1 is $1500. That means a upright piano frame and sound system cost $2500. NU1X costs $6000, so a real acoustic action only controller costs $3500.
This is a smart attempt to glean the possible cost - hadn’t thought of it that way. However, in addition to the grand hybrid action likely being more expensive (parts cost) than the action you mention in your example, you should probably account for the additional labor needed to regulate this (far more complex) action to an acceptable standard at the factory.
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If you negotiate you can get it for less than that (even day zero).
I'd love to see a speakerless, toneless NV-VPC as well, but I agree with Ando, the price would likely be much closer to 6k+ than 3k. The market for 'true grand action hybrid' (NV10, N1, N2, N3, N3X) is very small (relative to the reset of the DP market). Market for something like NV-VPC will be even smaller. At that point, there is simply not enough profit for the manufacturers to both with R&D + other costs for introducing a new product. The number of people considering high-end hybrid or digital pianos shouldn't be underestimated. The big industry players know there is a market. The advantages compared to owning an acoustic grand piano just makes sense for many people on so many levels -- outstanding quality of sound/volume in a smaller footprint than a grand acoustic, ease of virtually zero maintenance/tuning no matter the climate, lots of adjustability, quiet use with headphones, recording, and sharing. The action on digital/hybrid also continues getting better to the point that on the new Kawai NV10 its action is reportedly almost indiscernible from the acoustic counterparts at much higher prices. Like it or not, I think digital/hybrids pianos are truly now in the midst of the same phase that digital photography went through about 18 years ago. The advantages of digital photography were so numerous that fairly quickly everyone just started to switch over from film photography. High-end digital pianos might still not have the commanding presence for professional scenarios that grand acoustic pianos definitely have, but for domestic use, they are becoming truly irresistible given all the features. +1. Some speculation: I think the casualty of improving DP is going to be the acoustic upright market. There are fewer and fewer reasons to prefer acoustic uprights over the 'true grand action hybrid'. And, there are way more reasons to prefer these DPs over upright. Grand acoustic market - as small as it already is - is not going anywhere. I think that is going to stay. Osho
Mason & Hamlin BB Kawai Novus NV10 + VST + Genelec 8050B monitors. Current VST favorites (in the order of preference): Pianoteq 7/VSL Synchron Concert D//Garritan CFX/Embertone Walker D Full
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Joined: Aug 2016
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If you negotiate you can get it for less than that (even day zero).
I'd love to see a speakerless, toneless NV-VPC as well, but I agree with Ando, the price would likely be much closer to 6k+ than 3k. The market for 'true grand action hybrid' (NV10, N1, N2, N3, N3X) is very small (relative to the reset of the DP market). Market for something like NV-VPC will be even smaller. At that point, there is simply not enough profit for the manufacturers to both with R&D + other costs for introducing a new product. Oh I think everyone here knows the market for such a product would be miniscule, and the price point desired isn't particularly realistic in real world economic terms.
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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CA98 is $4000, VPC1 is $1500. That means a upright piano frame and sound system cost $2500. NU1X costs $6000, so a real acoustic action only controller costs $3500.
That's an upright action. Kawai Millennium III carbon fibre grand action is far more advanced than that - also remember the simulated damper mechanism. Also factor in the use of the hammer sensor technology. The NU1X uses only key sensor technology and it's causing strange triggering behaviour (that was a cost saving measure). Factor in all that and you quickly get to $6,000, and possibly sail right past it. Given carbon composite millennium 3 uprights sell for competitive prices vs Yamaha ones, more advanced perhaps but I doubt it's any more expensive. If anything I'd wager that it's cheaper to manufacture. The cabinet cost is perhaps overestimated though, much older vpc with rm3 vs brand new ca98 and gf 2...
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The number of people considering high-end hybrid or digital pianos shouldn't be underestimated. The big industry players know there is a market. The advantages compared to owning an acoustic grand piano just makes sense for many people on so many levels -- outstanding quality of sound/volume in a smaller footprint than a grand acoustic, ease of virtually zero maintenance/tuning no matter the climate, lots of adjustability, quiet use with headphones, recording, and sharing. The action on digital/hybrid also continues getting better to the point that on the new Kawai NV10 its action is reportedly almost indiscernible from the acoustic counterparts at much higher prices. Like it or not, I think digital/hybrids pianos are truly now in the midst of the same phase that digital photography went through about 18 years ago. The advantages of digital photography were so numerous that fairly quickly everyone just started to switch over from film photography. High-end digital pianos might still not have the commanding presence for professional scenarios that grand acoustic pianos definitely have, but for domestic use, they are becoming truly irresistible given all the features. Nah, I agree with you as to the DP market as a whole, the hybrid alone not so much. I take it the AG has sold well, but not anywhere near to overtake the public's desire for a real grand piano at that price point. There is still a big difference in sound and touch as compared to an acoustic. If the market for hybrids was really that overwhelming in demand, I believe Yamaha would have invested more heavily in upgrading the AG more frequently than it has over the past 9 years. Just my opinion, of course.
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One that I agree with. I really like the AvantGrands and would certainly love to replace my aging Yamaha CP5 in the office with one. The N2 in its current form would be perfectly functional for what I need it to do. Basically I don't need an upgrade.
Still, I don't know one piano player - as well as any vocalists, or any instrumentalists that play - who I consider Pro, that would even consider owning an AG over even say a decent used Yamaha C3, or a comparable piano.
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This is true ... but it's incomplete. The market for 'true grand action hybrid' (NV10, N1, N2, N3, N3X) is very small (relative to the reset of the DP market). Market for something like NV-VPC will be even smaller. At that point, there is simply not enough profit for the manufacturers to both with R&D + other costs for introducing a new product. When a new product is introduced, just how much of it is new? Not much! And what little really is new usually comes only in the high-end products. Then, in successive years, those new attributes go into the lower priced units. You see dozens of slab keyboards and dozens of console models in the shops. But much of what's inside them is the same. Big cost savings. Yes, it's costly to introduce a new model. And that's precisely why the "new" models contain so much of what was in the old models. They're really just reshaped versions of the what came before, with a sprinkling of new stuff. Big cost savings. So ... even if the high end AGs and Novi take only a tiny share of the market, I think the things introduced into them (at great development cost) will be reused in other pianos in the line in later years. So ... please buy one. Please help them recoup their development costs so that in a few years I can get Novus abilities in a mid-range console.
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Hopefully added competition will spur this kind of development, but historically one could look at Yamaha, which has had the Avant Grands for nearly a decade and the similar acoustic-grand optical-sensor GranTouch series for years before that. And nothing from these actions have migrated even to their high end consoles in this time (unless you count the naming scheme of the "GrandTouch" action in the 675/685).
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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