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A Steinway OR is a model L with a DuoArt player.

Anyone in the Bay Area wanting a 4'11" baby grand for pocket change?
Link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/183059516227

Tokai is entry level but I remember a forum member here had one and got it playing nicely before upgrading to a Yamaha C7.

This is one of those "moving but can't take the piano" listings. Really, not worth $400 to move the piano with you? Especially if the buy now price is $500? Seller comes out ahead $900 but even a Tokai baby grand is worth more than that (if playable).

If I were in the Bay Area I would have grabbed this already!

That was me, Colin. Yes, I did enjoy the Tokai grand while I owned it. A couple of the dealer members here didn't speak too highly of the Tokai, but yet they sold them back in the day. I guess in the piano biz, opinions about certain brands and brand loyalty can change like the wind, depending on what they are selling at the moment.

Before Google stopped recognizing PW, if you Googled "Tokai piano" you'd get more hits on Piano World regarding the Tokai than any other site, and most of the threads were about my infamous Tokai.

I felt like perhaps I had a hand in putting the Tokai brand on the Internet map...

Still not a bad entry-level grand (made in Japan) at the right price.

Rick

"Playing nicely"? The buyer even admitted it was his first piano so he didn't know much about pianos at the time. How good can a piano costing less than the price of good piano bench likely be?

The seller doesn't come out ahead $900 because they no longer have a piano.

I think it makes more sense to buy one good piano than to consider buying a lot of very inexpensive ones unless, perhaps, if one likes to tinker with them.

You can carry US$350 in change, in your pockets? You must have very big pockets.

Seller ended the Tokai listing due to an "error." Probably meant to set the minimum price at $3,500 and buy-now price at $5,000 ... not $350 and $500 respectively. Or maybe it was a scam.



As discussed in my thread about shopping the used piano market, price and quality don't always move in lock-step. This looked like the classic "moving, can't take piano" case in which the seller lets it go cheap to avoid paying for a piano move.
I didn't try to buy this piano ... no more room for pianos here, and it would cost at least $1,000 to ship from Northern California to Colorado. But the brand name would not have deterred me if I were local, had more room, and could get it moved for $300.
Rickster mentioned above that he had a Tokai and enjoyed it despite the brand's mediocre reputation. I remember from his threads, that the Tokai left his home in better shape than when he bought it! Tech work took an entry-level piano and made it an enjoyable instrument until he wanted to upgrade.

Some people here may have only a $1,000 budget and are looking for a real piano. That is why I share these listings.

I know that I am unusual in that I want to have multiple budget pianos. Despite that, I still haven't spent the kind of money it costs to buy a single high-end piano.
Most people would not feel a need to have more than two pianos (most piano teachers' studios I've seen have two pianos, or one acoustic + one digital). The aspiring piano technician may want to buy a fixer-upper piano to learn to work on pianos, or to fix and flip at a higher price if the work is not expensive to complete.



LOL ... not literally pocket change, but that was an outrageously low asking price for an entry-level baby grand nonetheless...

Regarding the Tokai, that was my first baby grand piano, and I didn't know much about pianos at the time. I paid $4250 for the piano, and then $350 for a professional mover to move it. It served me well during the time I owned it. It was a G-180 (5'10") and a copy of the Steinway "O".

I sold it for $3000, and it was in better shape when I sold it than when I bought it. They guy who bought it was a trained classical pianist and was thrilled with it...

It is the piano pictured in my forum avatar.

Rick

Rick -

Sorry you lost money on the sale of the Tokai. But the pianist who bought it from you got a nice, under-appreciated piano to enjoy at an affordable price. I don't think you made a bad or ignorant choice. Most people buying their first piano don't go whole-hog and spend high five-figure sums. They find a reasonably good entry-level instrument under $10,000 and start playing. Then when they appreciate what more money will get you, they upgrade! Just like what you did.

I know my "snob appeal" thread stirred up a hornet's nest, but these are exactly the kind of piano that I think more people should consider in their search. The Steinway O was a successful design. Some would say the Tokai is a "Japanese knock-off." Some truth to that, but the buyer with $3,000-$4,500 to spend will come home empty-handed from Steinway Hall. Whereas they can get the "knock-off" within their budget and have a perfectly good piano to play!

There's a world of difference between not moving in lockstep and thinking $300 for a grand has more than the faintest chance of getting a decent piano. Most people who need to sell a piano quickly due to a move don't give them away for virtually nothing. It's more likely they reduce the price but not to an absurd level.For people with that budget, almost every source from dealers to reference books to PW members recommend a used vertical or digital. When looking for a grand at that price the chances that it will be pretty bad are considerably greater than if one looks for a vertical or new digital.

A Steinway O costs in the neighborhood of 80K. While some, including me, would say that for 80K there are better choices, it' not reasonable that a near 6' piano costing 4.5K would be good. That's going way too far in the other direction, If you double or triple that amount there may be pretty good choices but 4.5K is just too low. It's not reasonable to think a piano at that price is a "knock off" in a realistic sense.

I don’t understand a thread about inexpensive pianos. If I don’t have much money for instance, and I live in the bay area, I can check my own craigslist for inexpensive pianos in my area. Unless we have personal knowledge of the individual piano’s quality, aren’t we doing a disservice to potential buyers by posting anything about the piano? A $400 piano could be a great deal, and it could be $400 too much for the piano. An inexperienced buyer may well likely read ‘wow, let me buy it’ into these postings... and that is not warranted without more information.

I would think the same logic would apply whether I have $1000 $10,000 or $20,000 to spend on a piano. If I only have $1000, I could not afford it buy a lemon and waste some of my total allocation.

Here are some more pictures of my Japanese made Steinway O Tokai G-180

Like I said, it served me well for a few years. I enjoyed learning to play on it, learning to tune on it, and learning some valuable piano tech skills on it, including stabbing the rock-hard hammers with a voicing needle to tone down the brightness a bit. For what I paid for it, I was not afraid I was going to do more harm than good, which I never did. Everything I did to the Tokai was an improvement.

Again, the guy who bought it was thrilled with it...

Posting ad links is not an inherent disservice to buyers. The piano might be junk, or it might be a diamond in the rough. As always, caveat emptor. Have a tech check out a piano you're seriously interested in buying. A tech check should protect against buying a lemon.

It does not cost high five figures to get a decent used piano on the resale market. Buyers should not resign themselves to digital or an upright without considering all their options.

I bought two Samick-made grands at $3,200 and $2,500 respectively. While not state-of-the-art, they are not junk by any means. A $3,000-$4,500 budget is not too low. It takes patience, savvy, and tech evaluations, but it can be done. A decent grand for less than $5,000.

Rickster's photos above do not depict a heap o' junk. That Tokai is a respectable piano and with a little tech work, blossomed into a pretty nice piano. Yes, the Yamaha C7 is nicer, but costs 4X-6X times as much. The budget-minded pianist would be much happier with that Tokai than with no piano at all.

my first grand was a small yamaha cosmetically battered from its hard use in a bar or nightclub, cigarette burns in the finish as evidence. at the time, early 70s, these pianos were probably a better quality instrument than similar grands yamaha made later called GH 1, and it was a great player, responsive, robust sound for its size. if not for this piano, might not have kept playing on and off (on now) through the years, and never would have afforded it except for the huge discount from surface damages.

No one on this thread or any other PW thread ever said it costs in the high five figures to get even a decent new piano and certainly not a decent used piano. My most recent post, in case I didn't make it clear, was about new pianos and at 4.5K virtually everyone says it doesn't make sense to buy a grand since the quality would be so low.
No one said Rickster's piano was junk, but comparing it to a Steinway O, just because it's design has "some similarities", would be going to the other extreme. Having any piano is better than no piano, but that doesn't mean that one should choose grands that are priced very low over uprights or digitals at the same price. The choice isn't between having no piano or having a grand.

For new pianos with a budget of 5k most agree that a vertical or digital makes sense. For used pianos with a budget of 5K one has to decide between a grand and vertical but at the same price the vertical will often be a higher quality so one has to choose between higher quality vertical vs wanting a grand.

The most recent discussion was about a used grand selling for $300 and at that price the chances of the piano being decent are extremely low.

I posted about the $350-$500 asking price on that Tokai baby grand. I'm well aware of the recent discussion, particularly things I posted.
While I would agree that most $300-$900 used grand pianos are junkers, there are occasional exceptions. Particularly if the seller doesn't know what the piano is worth, or if they are in a rush to sell. Good thing for the seller they cancelled their auction in time. If someone in the Bay Area had hit "buy it now," they would have been contractually obligated to sell that piano for $500, substantially less than it is worth.

For me, the choice is between:
- no piano
- digital piano
- grand piano

Why my disdain for verticals, so much that I consider them a non-option?

Most uprights I have seen and played had inferior action and sound quality even compared to an entry-level baby grand. That includes well-regarded Yamaha and Kawai models, but not the European makes (haven't gotten to play one of those). The vertical design does not project sound into the room as well as a grand piano of any size. Nicer 52" uprights (new or used) that compare favorably with baby grands also overlap those grands in price range. The grand sounds at least as good and looks better in a room. Versus digitals, upright action is comparable (maybe slightly better) but the digital sounds like a concert grand through good speakers or headphones, and requires less maintenance (no tunings).

That is why I think a used grand is a better option than acoustic verticals unless space is at a very strict premium. A baby grand and bench take up about 40 square feet of floor space (5x5 for piano, 3x5 for bench out while playing). The upright and bench take about 25 (2x5 for piano + 3x5 for bench out while playing). Unless living in a micro-apartment, I think it's worth shuffling stuff around to find that little bit of extra floor space to accommodate a grand.

That's the kind of story I like hearing!
A good piano, just didn't look good due to the abuse of being in a bar or restaurant.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion but many pianists don't agree, especially if by "entry level baby" grand you mean a piano around 5' from the lowest tier in the Fine rankings. For new acoustic pianos, sales of verticals far outnumber sales of grands.

Regarding your first statement, I disagree, after playing many particularly well-regarded Japanese, European, American, even the best of Chinese and Indonesian vertical models (of a decent size and design) available in our market, particularly with regard to sound quality. Have you heard a good vertical piano project sound into a room when it wasn't shoved right up against a wall? The few digital pianos that sound anything like a concert grand through their speakers are offered at costs mostly between $5-10k, so that's pretty much the high-end digital market, which competes on price with midrange verticals and entry-level small grands.

On a rare occasion, you can come across a really good buy on a used piano. A few years ago I was cruising Craigslist in neighboring towns in GA. and came across a Kawai RX5 (ca late 90s early 2000s?) for sale at a church in south Ga. I emailed the seller and asked some questions about the piano. They were asking $4000 for it. That is a dirt-cheap, steal of a price on the RX5, even if it had been abused and needed work.

The church representative emailed me back and we discussed a good time for me to go look at the piano. I really didn't need another piano, but it seemed like too good of a deal to pass up. A few days later, the guy emails me back and said the church leaders changed their minds and decided not to sell the piano. Okay, that was fine with me; no harm no foul.

A few months ago, the guy sends me an email and asks me if I'm still interested in the RX5, because the church had decided to sell it once again. Ironically, my piano enthusiasm had faded a good bit between then and now. I emailed the guy back and told him I appreciated him keeping my contact info, but I was no longer interested in the piano. I already have 4 acoustic pianos to keep me busy, 3 grands and an upright. I probably should have pursued the RX5 at that price, but then again, pure piano greed is not a good virtue, I suppose. But I do like a good piano adventure...

Rick