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The Latest in Recording Piano? #2711905
02/06/18 09:56 AM
02/06/18 09:56 AM
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Hershey, PA, USA
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Hi Everyone...

The links to methods of recording in the "Important Topics in the Adult Beginners Forum" don't seem to be connecting, so I was wondering what most people are using these days for recording - is it still the Zoom portable digital recorders (I remember vaguely a discussion about them some time back)? And if so, which of the several models that I've seen on Amazon is preferred?

Also, how about editing capabilities - can that be done within the zoom, or does one need some other outside app to do this?

Thanks!


"Difficulties deferred and challenges unmet will eventually return with a vengeance to bite one in the butt." (paraphrasing Chopin)
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Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2711913
02/06/18 10:21 AM
02/06/18 10:21 AM
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If anyone would like to write up a new guide to recording, we can replace the one that is missing. Volunteers?

I use a Zoom H4n for recording. Then I transfer the file to my computer and edit and export to mp3 with Audacity.

Sam

Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2711929
02/06/18 11:01 AM
02/06/18 11:01 AM
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I think there were several threads in the last years on this. Maybe collect the info from them?

Globally I would say
* get nice sounding piano. Set it up to sound nice (lid open/removed; away from wall)
* fix the room so that the nice piano sounds nice in the room
* get good mics. If possible linear response 20-20kHz within say 2dB.
* place mics either close to strings for jazzy sound, for classic about 1 to 3 feet (or further if room acoustics allow) outside the lid so that the mics can see all strings. Slight changes in mic position can greatly emphasize/de-emphasize certain frequencies and thus has large impact. Especially in smaller rooms.
* Get recorder that allows manual control of the volume and set it so that no clipping occurs
* Remove all other sources of noice: a/c, clocks, washing machines, dogs , etc

Last edited by wouter79; 02/06/18 11:03 AM.

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Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2711966
02/06/18 12:56 PM
02/06/18 12:56 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 18,313
Lexington, Kentucky
Monica K. Online blank

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I've been a huge fan of the Zoom family of products since they came out, wow, maybe a decade ago? And I've owned four over the years. Currently I use two when I record: My trusty Zoom H4n, which I use to record audio .wav files that I burn onto my annual CDs and convert to mp3s using Audacity for the quarterly recitals. I also record video with my Q8, which records in stereo as well as a high definition video. Why not just use the Q8?, you ask? Good question. I very well could, as there is an option in the Q8 to extract just the audio track if you want. But I find it easier to adjust the volume input settings with my H4, and do subsequent editing, than it is with the Q8. Plus, I think I get better audio recording by placing my H4 on my music desk, whereas you have to place the Q8 farther away if you want to get good video.

So, if you only wanted to purchase one device, I think it would depend on how badly you wanted to be able to get video. If that's affirmative, then buy the Q8 or whatever the current version of the Q8 is. If you mainly want good audio, I'd recommend the H4n (which would allow you attach better external mics should you desire later on) or the H2 (doesn't allow external mics but cheaper).

Someone who knows what they're doing can get better sound from a piano if you have separate mics and a mixer etc. and follow the recommendations wouter79 describes. But that's labor intensive, expensive, and requires one to know what they're doing technology wise. I don't meet, or want to meet, any of those requirements. laugh I still say that for the combination of affordability, ease of use, and good sound, you can't beat the Zooms.

Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Sam S] #2711976
02/06/18 01:12 PM
02/06/18 01:12 PM
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Hershey, PA, USA
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Originally Posted by Sam S
If anyone would like to write up a new guide to recording, we can replace the one that is missing. Volunteers?

I use a Zoom H4n for recording. Then I transfer the file to my computer and edit and export to mp3 with Audacity.

Sam


Sam - what is Audacity exactly - a software app? If so, is it free downloadable?


"Difficulties deferred and challenges unmet will eventually return with a vengeance to bite one in the butt." (paraphrasing Chopin)
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2711981
02/06/18 01:21 PM
02/06/18 01:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 18,313
Lexington, Kentucky
Monica K. Online blank

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Yes, Audacity is free (as well as the Lame extension to convert to mp3). It's also pretty easy to use!

Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: wouter79] #2711984
02/06/18 01:27 PM
02/06/18 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by wouter79


Globally I would say
* get nice sounding piano. Set it up to sound nice (lid open/removed; away from wall)
* fix the room so that the nice piano sounds nice in the room
*
* Remove all other sources of noice: a/c, clocks, washing machines, dogs , etc


wouter79 - sounds like you have an acoustic piano, and if I had one too I'd follow your good advice all the way. But, I have a Yamaha digital.

Also, I wish I had a dog because I love dogs - but unfortunately my wife is allergic to them...their hair or dander or something (maybe the high maintenance costs!)...


"Difficulties deferred and challenges unmet will eventually return with a vengeance to bite one in the butt." (paraphrasing Chopin)
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Monica K.] #2711995
02/06/18 01:45 PM
02/06/18 01:45 PM
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Hershey, PA, USA
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Originally Posted by Monica K.
Yes, Audacity is free (as well as the Lame extension to convert to mp3). It's also pretty easy to use!


Monica - you said above you make .wav files with the Zoom and then convert them to mp3 with Audacity - so, is the Zoom not capable of producing mp3 files directly?

Also, do you know if one can make an "electronic" recording (as opposed to an "acoustic" recording) with the Zoom, that is a recording using direct wiring or cables from the digital piano audio output jacks straight to the Zoom? In other words does the Zoom have audio input jacks in addition to mics?)


"Difficulties deferred and challenges unmet will eventually return with a vengeance to bite one in the butt." (paraphrasing Chopin)
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712016
02/06/18 02:57 PM
02/06/18 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Handyman
Originally Posted by wouter79


Globally I would say
* get nice sounding piano. Set it up to sound nice (lid open/removed; away from wall)
* fix the room so that the nice piano sounds nice in the room
*
* Remove all other sources of noice: a/c, clocks, washing machines, dogs , etc


wouter79 - sounds like you have an acoustic piano, and if I had one too I'd follow your good advice all the way. But, I have a Yamaha digital.

Also, I wish I had a dog because I love dogs - but unfortunately my wife is allergic to them...their hair or dander or something (maybe the high maintenance costs!)...


Since your piano is digital you likely don't have to bother with any of the above stuff and a zoom, but it depends on model, check the manual, it may already have an internal recorder and a facility to put it on a usb thumb drive, which you can then transfer to PC where you can do any conversion you like wav to mp3 flac or whatever format in audacity.

If it does not have this facility but you piano has a line out or even headphone out you can connect that to a recorder or PC, but we would need some more details. Best to check what model of piano you have so we can double check its capabilities. The other route using line out and external recorders will usually lead to a less clean sounding result with noise issues and likely quality loss in conversion with digital setups, ( unless you delve into the world of MIDI and software pianos) The Internal recorders will give you to the best results at minimal cost.


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Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712026
02/06/18 03:24 PM
02/06/18 03:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
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Georgia, USA
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Yes, the zoom does mp3 - its just that the wav files are uncompressed and better quality, so I record to that, and then convert to mp3. But the H4n has a button right on front that lets you change file formats.

But if you have a keyboard that can record, you can do that and not buy anything, and get very good recordings.

Sam

Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Alexander Borro] #2712116
02/06/18 06:56 PM
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Alexander - can Audacity convert any type of file to mp3, including MIDI files? After checking my manual it seems my digital piano does record, but I think it creates MIDI files (if I'm reading it correctly)...I struggle to understand this stuff...


"Difficulties deferred and challenges unmet will eventually return with a vengeance to bite one in the butt." (paraphrasing Chopin)
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712125
02/06/18 07:11 PM
02/06/18 07:11 PM
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Audacity cannot convert MIDI to mp3, audacity can only convert one audio format to another. MIDI is not an audio format, it is simply a recording of your key strokes, what notes you played, you would need other software to convert that key data and convert that to a piano sound, for which separate software would be needed.

If you state the model of your piano we can help more. Likely if your piano can record midi it can also record audio formats of the inbuild sounds, the simplest route to get started. Unless you really want to get into midi that becomes a whole other topic what you need for that with other complications.

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 02/06/18 07:12 PM.

Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
[Linked Image] 12x ABF recitals.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712147
02/06/18 09:10 PM
02/06/18 09:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
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Canada
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Originally Posted by Handyman
wouter79 - sounds like you have an acoustic piano, and if I had one too I'd follow your good advice all the way. But, I have a Yamaha digital.

Since you have a digital:

My former piano was a Yamaha digital and I now have a Kawai hybrid which essentially is also a digital. I have a cable running from the piano to my computer feeding the signal directly. Most modern digitals will have a dedicated jack for that. My old Yamaha was cheap because it was about to go off the market so it didn't have one. In that case I used one of the ear phone jacks for that. For audio only, I use Goldwave - I found it easier to understand than Audacity because I'm a software nincompoop. So when I want to record audio, I open Goldwave, make sure my "recording" settings are set to the line-in (whatever that might be named) and it feeds into Goldwave. From there it can be saved as mp3 or Wav.

For videos I have a Logitech camera. The sound from the mike is not that great, so I make sure that the sound goes through the same cable that I mentioned above, but the video is through the camera. The software for the camera lets you select which audio to choose.

Sometimes there is a reason to also talk. I have a mixer, a microphone that goes into the mixer, and the cable also goes into the mixer for my setup (in this case the mixer then feeds into the computer and the rest is the same). So in this case my voice goes into the mixer via microphone, the piano sound goes into the mixer via the cable running from the piano, and the mixer sends those signals to the computer. You probably have no reason to record voice as well as piano, so skip this last paragraph. wink

Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712150
02/06/18 09:22 PM
02/06/18 09:22 PM
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I use two Berringer C2 mics into a Berringer 802 mixer into a Motu 828 firewire converter into my mac and a metro software recording app. I've always found recording acoustic piano to be really tough.


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Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712153
02/06/18 10:00 PM
02/06/18 10:00 PM
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My process (for digital) is to output from the Yamaha into the mic input of a HD camcorder. I use an attenuator cable so that the signal is not too hot. The camcorder creates an MP4 file. I then extract the audio from that file using ffmpeg. Open that up in Audacity, remove noise, and create a new audio file. I then use ffmpeg again to replace the audio stream in the MP4 file with the noise free audio file created using Audacity. ffmpeg is a command line tool. There are GUI options, but once you understand the parameters it's quite easy to use ... and free laugh


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Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712219
02/07/18 03:53 AM
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Thanks everyone for all the info - I appreciate your help - but I don't think I understand half of what you're saying & the problem is me, not you - I'm semi-illiterate where these things are concerned and I struggle to get techie stuff done - eventually I usually do, but it's like pulling teeth...

When all else fails one should read one's manual, which is what I'm going to have to do here, at length and in depth - this is an older Yamaha CVP model which has Line Out jacks underneath and also a smartcard slot on top right and a cable coming from underneath that has a USB plug on the end (maybe for connecting directly to a laptop???) - I don't know if the smartcard records MIDI or actual audio and the same for the USB cable...the manual has a fairly big section about recording so I'm going to look into that and get back to you...

If all else fails I'll have to call in the Geek Squad from Best Buy...but I am excited about the prospect of possibly not having to spend big bucks for a Zoom! Thanks again!

Alexander - no, I don't want to delve any further into MIDI...

Last edited by Handyman; 02/07/18 04:18 AM.

"Difficulties deferred and challenges unmet will eventually return with a vengeance to bite one in the butt." (paraphrasing Chopin)
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712226
02/07/18 04:36 AM
02/07/18 04:36 AM
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Hi Handyman!

Yes, this can all be quite confusing if done for the first time.

There's one general concept: If you are playing a digital piano, then to record it, you usually want to avoid using a recorder with a microphone. Because that would mean, that first your piano has to convert the electronic sound into actual sound waves (by moving the air with its speakers) and then the microphone of the recording device has to convert these sound waves back into recorded electronic information. This "roundabout" way via moving air molecules around with the speakers and detecting that movement with a microphone degrades the recording quality.

Therefore, a digital piano is usually recorded by recording the electronic signal directly.

In your case, since your CVP has a line out, you simply need to use a cable to connect this line out to the input (usually line in) of a recording device of your choice. That device can be a Zoom, but it can for example also be a computer. In the latter case, you then need to run a software (app) on the computer that does the actual recording. The mentioned free Audacity software can do this for you.

Alternatively, some digital pianos also have a direct recording feature, where the piano itself stores the recording on a USB stick (thumb drive), usually either in WAV or MP3 format (as already explained, the MIDI format cannot be used for this). Since you didn't tell us your CVP model, we can't know if your piano is capable of this, but the manual should help you out in that regard too.

Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: JoBert] #2712262
02/07/18 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Hi Handyman!


Therefore, a digital piano is usually recorded by recording the electronic signal directly.

In your case, since your CVP has a line out, you simply need to use a cable to connect this line out to the input (usually line in) of a recording device of your choice. That device can be a Zoom, but it can for example also be a computer. In the latter case, you then need to run a software (app) on the computer that does the actual recording. The mentioned free Audacity software can do this for you.


So, Audacity is a recorder in addition to being an editor? And then I could connect directly from the piano to my laptop via output/input jacks...


Originally Posted by JoBert

Alternatively, some digital pianos also have a direct recording feature, where the piano itself stores the recording on a USB stick (thumb drive), usually either in WAV or MP3 format (as already explained, the MIDI format cannot be used for this). Since you didn't tell us your CVP model, we can't know if your piano is capable of this, but the manual should help you out in that regard too.


Well, the piano does not have a USB slot for a thumb drive to be inserted, but it does have a short cord with a USB plug on the end which, via with the help of an extension cord, I could plug directly into a USB slot on my laptop, right?

I swear my old feeble brain is just about to explode...

Last edited by Handyman; 02/07/18 08:24 AM.

"Difficulties deferred and challenges unmet will eventually return with a vengeance to bite one in the butt." (paraphrasing Chopin)
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712296
02/07/18 10:43 AM
02/07/18 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Handyman
So, Audacity is a recorder in addition to being an editor? And then I could connect directly from the piano to my laptop via output/input jacks...

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Handyman
Well, the piano does not have a USB slot for a thumb drive to be inserted, but it does have a short cord with a USB plug on the end which, via with the help of an extension cord, I could plug directly into a USB slot on my laptop, right?

You could certainly plug it in, the question is, if it does you any good. :-)

USB can theoretically be used to transfer either sound data (in digital format) or MIDI data, but not every USB connection on a digital piano can actually be used for both of these data types. The USB connection is usually dedicated to one of them and it depends on the piano in question what kind of data it transfers over its built in USB. Quite a few pianos actually have two USB connectors: One to transfer MIDI data (to a computer) and another to transfer sound data (usually to a thumb drive, some can also transfer the sound data to a computer).

So it really depends on what your piano's USB connector was designed to do. My guess is, that it is designed to send MIDI data. In that case it would not be useful for you to plug it into your PC, if you actually want to record sound data, and not capture MIDI data. But of course it may be designed for sound data. The manual should clear that up.

Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712323
02/07/18 11:44 AM
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Good guess!

The manual says it's MIDI data - so much for that option.

So, it looks like I'm left with just the hard-wired option of output-to-input connection, either from piano directly to computer, or much less desirably with a Zoom intermediate stage...but if the jack on the piano is the old RCA type and there is no such RCA input jack on the laptop, is there some sort of adapter available for the computer to make this happen (does this question reveal my staggering ignorance here?)?


"Difficulties deferred and challenges unmet will eventually return with a vengeance to bite one in the butt." (paraphrasing Chopin)
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