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Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712329
02/07/18 12:07 PM
02/07/18 12:07 PM
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Lexington, Kentucky
Monica K. Online blank

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Originally Posted by Handyman


If all else fails I'll have to call in the Geek Squad from Best Buy...but I am excited about the prospect of possibly not having to spend big bucks for a Zoom! Thanks again!



The Zoom H2 is currently going for $160, which is not much more than a Geek Squad visit and would give you something you could use indefinitely. But with a digital it's usually better to figure out how to record directly from the piano to computer, as you don't have to deal with annoying environmental noises etc.

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Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712361
02/07/18 01:50 PM
02/07/18 01:50 PM
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Hershey, PA, USA
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That's the conclusion I've come to by a process of elimination Monica...

Think I'll talk to the guys in the local computer repair shop or maybe give a call to Yamaha's Customer Care & Tech Support no. and see how much they know (and really do care!)...

In the meantime, this Handyman is not such a handy man... laugh


"Difficulties deferred and challenges unmet will eventually return with a vengeance to bite one in the butt." (paraphrasing Chopin)
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712381
02/07/18 02:54 PM
02/07/18 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Handyman
but if the jack on the piano is the old RCA type and there is no such RCA input jack on the laptop, is there some sort of adapter available for the computer to make this happen?

A cable like this (with the required length) should do the trick:

https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-3-5mm-2-Male-Adapter-Cable/dp/B01D5H8JW0

Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712383
02/07/18 02:57 PM
02/07/18 02:57 PM
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Cables are cheaper than a Zoom recorder. But there's a problem, potentially . . .

Your DP probably has two "Line Out" jacks -- left, and right. In which case, it outputs stereo sound.

If your computer has a _stereo_ "Line In" jack (or a microphone jack, that allows two-channel input), you can connect the DP to the computer (with appropriate cables), start Audacity, and record.

If your computer has a _monophonic_ (single-channel) "Line In" jack, and you want to record the stereo (two-channel) signal from the DP, you'll need something called an "audio interface".

. . . . and that lifts up another rock, with creepy-crawlies under it.

If the DP's jacks are labelled "Line Out / Left/Mono" and "Line Out / Right", you can use the "Left/Mono" jack as a single-channel source for the computer's "Line In" connection.

The Zoom H2 (and higher models) will do stereo recording from your DP's "Line Out" jacks. And some models (I'm sure of the H4 / H4n) will let you use them as an "audio interface". Having a portable recorder can be very handy.

So:

. . . What DP do you have ?


PS -- the DP's manual should have some instructions on "how to record using an audio recorder" or "how to connect the DP to a home stereo system". That will give you a start.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712463
02/07/18 07:41 PM
02/07/18 07:41 PM
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JoBert - that cable looks like what I need, going from separate lt/rt output jacks on the DP to the single, small combo mic/headphone jack on the laptop (I assume that's the jack I'd have to use for audio input to the computer)...

Given Charles Cohen's considerations about stereo recording above, does such a cable combine the lt & rt audio signals into a combo or merged signal for input to the Audacity program within the laptop?

BTW - the DP is model CVP-301 from about 12 years ago bought used a few years back...


"Difficulties deferred and challenges unmet will eventually return with a vengeance to bite one in the butt." (paraphrasing Chopin)
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712479
02/07/18 09:24 PM
02/07/18 09:24 PM
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For those of us beginners that have an acoustic piano, how do we record our playing? Is something like the Q8 the best SIMPLE way to record with decent sound?


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Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: NobleHouse] #2712520
02/08/18 01:48 AM
02/08/18 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by NobleHouse
For those of us beginners that have an acoustic piano, how do we record our playing? Is something like the Q8 the best SIMPLE way to record with decent sound?


A Q8, or a Zoom H2 or better (for audio only).

IMHO, with current electronics, and gear like that, the limits on the quality of your recording are:

. . . the microphone(s) used;
. . . microphone placement;
. . . the room acoustics.

I like the H4, since it has two XLR "Mic In" jacks, and microphone upgrades are easy. But I'm biased, since I own one.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712540
02/08/18 05:21 AM
02/08/18 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Handyman
JoBert - that cable looks like what I need, going from separate lt/rt output jacks on the DP to the single, small combo mic/headphone jack on the laptop (I assume that's the jack I'd have to use for audio input to the computer)...

Given Charles Cohen's considerations about stereo recording above, does such a cable combine the lt & rt audio signals into a combo or merged signal for input to the Audacity program within the laptop?

No, the cable does not combine left & right stereo into a merged mono signal. It is meant for a "real" stereo line-in 3mm jack. Unfortunatly, many laptops don't have these. If you have one of these combo mic/headphone jacks, then most likely it will only record mono if used as a mic jack.

I checked the manual of the CVP-301. It actually has two AUX outputs:

The RCA jacks on the right, which are labelled "(Level Fixed) L .... R". Those output a fixed volume level, i.e. your piano's volume control does not change the output of these jacks. From how I understand the manual, these always deliver only a stereo signal, so they are probably not the best choice for your mic jack on the laptop.

The 6.3mm standard phone jacks on the left, which are labelled "L/L+R .... R". Those output a variable level, i.e. your piano's volume control changes the output on these jacks. Here you have the choice of either connecting both (for stereo) or only the one labelled "L/L+R", for a mono signal. So to connect this single "L/L+R" jack without your mic jack on the laptop, you would need a cable with a 6.3mm plug on one end and a 3mm plug on the other. Or a cable with either 6.3mm plugs on both ends or 3mm plugs on both ends, and one adapter that changes from 6.3mm to 3mm, or the other way round, respectively. These cables/adapters are very common.

Also, I see that your piano also has an optical digital sound output. If your laptop happens to have an optical input (which I doubt) you could use that too. The necessary cable is called a "TOS link cable".

Finally: Connecting the output of the piano to your mic input in this fashion can give less than optimal results, as the mic input is actually meant for a mic, nor for line input.

So in the end, it may be necessary to buy an additional USB audio interface (or a Zoom), which would also have the advantage that it would support stereo. I fear that with audio interfaces, I cannot be of much help, as I myself have never needed one. But if you go the route of an additional audio interface, it might be worth it to get one with an optical digital input, so that you can use the optical digital output of your piano, so you can record the digital sound directly.

Last edited by JoBert; 02/08/18 05:23 AM.
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: JoBert] #2712559
02/08/18 08:06 AM
02/08/18 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
...

So in the end, it may be necessary to buy an additional USB audio interface (or a Zoom), which would also have the advantage that it would support stereo. I fear that with audio interfaces, I cannot be of much help, as I myself have never needed one. But if you go the route of an additional audio interface, it might be worth it to get one with an optical digital input, so that you can use the optical digital output of your piano, so you can record the digital sound directly.


JoBert - excellent analysis! I read thru your post 3 times now and almost understand what you're saying (and the problem is me and my almost vertical learning curve)...

I was aware of the other output jacks (L/L+R...) but couldn't quite grasp from the manual what they were for or how they worked - the manual seems to have been written by an electrical engineer for a recording engineer...

I know or understand less than nothing about "audio interfaces" - I'm not even sure whether it's a hardware device or a software program (or both) ... but I think it's probably preferable to try to retain as much as possible the stereo aspects or components of my output audio signal...so, I guess I may be stuck investing in a Zoom after all (or this interface thing) ... which, of course, would come in very handy if some day I won a lottery and then splurged on an expensive acoustic piano!

Just when I thought the solution was clear (and cheap) I'm back where I started...unless losing the stereo component doesn't make that much difference after all.

No matter what, I guess I've got to actually learn to play the piano good enough someday to warrant attempting a recording.


"Difficulties deferred and challenges unmet will eventually return with a vengeance to bite one in the butt." (paraphrasing Chopin)
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712565
02/08/18 08:25 AM
02/08/18 08:25 AM
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To clear up that point some more: An audio interface is a little hardware box that is connected to your laptop via USB and that in turn has jacks of different types, into which you can plug the cable (or cables) coming from your digital piano. So the signal from the piano goes into that audio interface box, which converts it into digital information, that is then sent on to your laptop (via USB, i.e. not via the mic/headphones jack) where it can then be played back and/or recorded, for example by a software like Audacity.

But yes, I agree that at this point you should maybe take a step back, let all this new information settle a bit, and instead spend some relaxing time at the piano actually playing it. wink

Have fun!

Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: JoBert] #2712629
02/08/18 12:10 PM
02/08/18 12:10 PM
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Thanks JoBert - you and others here were a giant help - I feel like I just had a crash course in piano recording!

Think I'll spend some time this afternoon investigating audio interfaces on amazon...


"Difficulties deferred and challenges unmet will eventually return with a vengeance to bite one in the butt." (paraphrasing Chopin)
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712818
02/09/18 03:07 AM
02/09/18 03:07 AM
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There have been extensive discussions on audio interfaces in the "Digital Pianos & Synths" forum. You might look there, as well as Amazon.

Behringer makes some relatively inexpensive interfaces. This one gives you two "Mic / Line In" channels, and should do what you need:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/UMC202HD--behringer-u-phoria-umc202hd

From what I've been reading, the Focus Scarlett 2i2 (or 2i2 "next generation") is much-loved by its owners:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Scarlet2i2G2

Remember that the Scarlett 2i2 is still in the "budget interface" category. As usual, you can spend as much as you want.

(I don't have either unit, so take this FWIW).


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712853
02/09/18 08:12 AM
02/09/18 08:12 AM
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Charles - thanks much for your recommendations - I was thinking of PMing you for that, but it's better this way since there may be others here interested in what you might suggest...

The Behringer is definitely in a very reasonable price range - I would like to think that it would do all that it would want and be happy with for some time to come. smile

Thanks again!

Last edited by Handyman; 02/09/18 08:18 AM.

"Difficulties deferred and challenges unmet will eventually return with a vengeance to bite one in the butt." (paraphrasing Chopin)
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712902
02/09/18 11:22 AM
02/09/18 11:22 AM
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I thought I understood how it works until I continued reading this thread. So: My piano has a left and right in the line-out. Originally I had that going directly into the computer. The "mono" that I got was turned into two monos via Goldwave - i.e. the signal was duplicated. It never bothered me. My Behringer mixer does have a left-right female jack, but then what it sends still goes into the same single line-in receptacle of the same computer. I can't change the computer's hardware.

The first question is: .... IS there actually a left and right to a piano? Even when I'm wearing headphones as I play, I don't hear the low notes on the left and the high notes on the right. Is it even important to be able to hear this, or to record "low on left / high on right" in a recording? Is this maybe just an extra unnecessary step for Handyman?

(And conversely, am I missing something?)

Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2712921
02/09/18 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring

The first question is: .... IS there actually a left and right to a piano? Even when I'm wearing headphones as I play, I don't hear the low notes on the left and the high notes on the right. Is it even important to be able to hear this, or to record "low on left / high on right" in a recording? Is this maybe just an extra unnecessary step for Handyman?

(And conversely, am I missing something?)


There definitely is a purpose to a left and right channel for a piano, unless you use a sample that is explicitly mono which some pianos have as an extra option you can select.

While you may not hear a clear left/right distinction for individual notes, you will hear the presence of a stereo image (which provides the illusion of spacial projection ). If you have a genuine mono recording you will hear the difference immediately, the projection will be right in the middle of your head with headphones, with everything sounding exactly the same left and right, very uninspiring, it completely destroys any sense of sound stage also, (roughly as if there is no surround to the sound at all, but instead just coming from one source/direction right in the middle)

btw the effect is easy to test to explain what I mean, if you have a panning button or stereo width setting on a mixer, most mixer software packages do, many audio interfaces have this feature build in, mine does anyway, but even with a stereo recording of piano in audacity you can do this experiment.

Take a good stereo recording and start listening, turn the panning dial back slowly, bit by bit, you will hear the sound image slowly collapse to a centre point in your head, at the mid point and any sense of direction goes out the window with it .. completely, as well as sound stage.

Some may say, but surely a piano is not stereo in real life, but that's not the point , it does fire sound in all directions in a room with surfaces it interacts with that envelop you. In order to replicate that illusion only stereo can provide you with the sound queues the ear needs to replicate that, the above experiment should make that clear.

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 02/09/18 12:30 PM.

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Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: JoBert] #2712994
02/09/18 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
To clear up that point some more: An audio interface is a little hardware box that is connected to your laptop via USB and that in turn has jacks of different types, into which you can plug the cable (or cables) coming from your digital piano. So the signal from the piano goes into that audio interface box, which converts it into digital information, that is then sent on to your laptop (via USB, i.e. not via the mic/headphones jack) where it can then be played back and/or recorded, for example by a software like Audacity.




Keystring - as related to your concerns I'll quote JoBert's post above, which if correct (and I'm assuming it is since no one objected) states that there is separate Lt & Rt audio signals coming into the audio interface from the piano - now, exactly what goes out of the interface to the computer via the USB connection (which is not the mic/earphone jack connection) was not precisely specified, but I was assuming (hoping) that it was a stereo signal being input to the recording program in the computer (Audacity) - maybe I'm wrong to assume this - can anyone clarify? Is a USB connection capable of carrying a stereo audio signal?

As far as just how important it actually is in terms of agreeable sound quality to have an input stereo audio signal (which I, too, was wondering about) Alexander seems to have answered that question rather nicely...I think...

Last edited by Handyman; 02/09/18 05:30 PM.

"Difficulties deferred and challenges unmet will eventually return with a vengeance to bite one in the butt." (paraphrasing Chopin)
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2713000
02/09/18 06:12 PM
02/09/18 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Handyman
. . .
. . .
(1) . . . now, exactly what goes out of the interface to the computer via the USB connection (which is not the mic/earphone jack connection) was not precisely specified, but I was assuming (hoping) that it was a stereo signal being input to the recording program in the computer (Audacity) . . . can anyone clarify?

(2) Is a USB connection capable of carrying a stereo audio signal?



"Yes", to both (1) and (2).

The audio interface will show up in the list of "input devices", in Audacity. I don't know if it will be seen as two separate input channels, or one stereo channel (that might depend on details of the software associated with the audio interface)-- but it'll carry a stereo signal, in either case.


Last edited by Charles Cohen; 02/09/18 06:14 PM.

. Charles
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Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2713035
02/09/18 10:40 PM
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OK then - that Behringer is starting to look like a sure thing now...with a side order of Audacity too...


"Difficulties deferred and challenges unmet will eventually return with a vengeance to bite one in the butt." (paraphrasing Chopin)
Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: keystring] #2713066
02/10/18 03:04 AM
02/10/18 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I thought I understood how it works until I continued reading this thread. So: My piano has a left and right in the line-out. Originally I had that going directly into the computer. The "mono" that I got was turned into two monos via Goldwave - i.e. the signal was duplicated. It never bothered me. My Behringer mixer does have a left-right female jack, but then what it sends still goes into the same single line-in receptacle of the same computer. I can't change the computer's hardware.

The plug that goes into your computer is a 3.5mm plug, I would guess.
Compare it to this picture (ignore the ones at the far left and right, compare with the two in the middle):
[Linked Image]
Note the subtle difference. The one on the right carries a stereo signal (provided the other end of the cable is fed with a stereo signal) the left one only mono.

Of course, even if the plug carries stereo, there's still the question if your computer's jack accepts the full stereo signal or if it uses only mono. Do you have a laptop? How is the jack labelled?

Re: The Latest in Recording Piano? [Re: Handyman] #2713077
02/10/18 04:29 AM
02/10/18 04:29 AM
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I was mistaken about what goes to the computer. That's a USB cable running from the Behringer mixer (XYNEX Q502USB) to my laptop. The other end going into the mixer is square. There is a stereo (two heads) jack from the piano going into a stereo (two heads) into the mixer. Originally when I had the old cheap Yamaha where I could only run a line through the headphone jack, I didn't have that luxury.

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