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Hello,

I used to be an advanced player of classical music, but haven't really played in many years. I would like to play again, but I don't have access to practice rooms or other sources of good grand pianos.

I've learned about virtual pianos through this forum, and am very intrigued by the idea of able to "play" different kinds of wonderful pianos.

Is there a guide or forum dedicated to virtual pianos?

Basically what I'm looking for is:
- which keyboard should I think about? I've recently learned about hybrids, and I love them, but what are some good alternatives?
- How to setup the speakers so that I can recreate the playing experience? My experience with Yamaha N3X was quite eye opening and N2 sounded wonderful too. Can something like that be recreated with good monitors?
- Which software should I start with? I know many of them have trial versions, but the shear number of them is overwhelming. Perhaps a short intro list to try first would be appreciated.

Much thanks in advance. I learned so much just reading these forums.

Hi Redfish,

the cheapest entry into what you're looking for might be:
- a Kawai VPC1, which is a good (but not Hybrid-like) pure virtual piano controller and quite cost-effective at 1300ish USD
- a decent laptop with an SSD for the software
- monitors / headphones of your choice

The top piano libraries mentioned most often here are Ravenscroft 275, Pianoteq 6, Garritan CFX, and Galaxy Vintage D.
- Pianoteq 6 has a free demo that you should try to see how you find the modeled kind of vst
- Garritan CFX Lite can be bought for $60 from sweetwater, which you should probably just buy even though there is no demo (there is an upgrade to the full version at a reduced price).
- Ravenscroft has a sale ongoing. It's a brighter sound many prefer for jazz, so check youtube if you like the sound and maybe buy it as well.

These 2-3 should be an ideal starting point and satisfy your immediate VST needs easily

In my opinion though, nothing really matches a grand, and we're still just as far away from a true grand experience as 10 years ago. And if you want to listen on monitors anyway, and have the budget for a hybrid, I would seriously consider an upright in your position. May I ask what's your reasoning against one?

It's easy to get excited about VSTs, and there are a million things to tinker with, tech specs and new releases, wonderful libraries on the market and around the corner. But having had a digital for 10 years and a grand for 8, I feel that in the grand scheme of things we're still almost as far away now as 10 years ago. The only exception are the hybrids like the N3X that you mentioned, but these cost just as much as a good upright, and sound similarly loud to the neighbours when you want the "full experience". So they should be carefully considered, if what you are after is really something as close as possible to a grand piano for advanced classical music practice and performance.

A small addendum: No, I don't believe that a good pair of monitors, your favorite VST and a VPC1 will match the experience of a N3X. These are really more than the sum of their parts, and all the parts are better too:

- Playability of built-in sounds is mostly still superior to sampled pianos
- The real grand action of a N3X is still in a league of its own (compared to traditional digital actions, I cant comment on similar systems from e.g. the Kawai Novus NV10).
- Good monitors still don't sound as real as the speaker setup of a N3X. Note that I have not tried this, I am going by the experiences I have read, my own high-end stereo that I listen to piano with, and my experience sitting at my own Estonia grand.

So there will always be a gap from any VST+cheap digital to a true Hybrid, and there is a further gap from a hybrid to a real instrument.

Just a small correction: It's Ravenscroft, not Ravenscrest.

If you play advanced classical music, you need quality implementation of re-pedaling and half-pedaling. I own Garritan CFX Lite and Vintage D and can confirm the former has very good re-pedaling and half-pedaling (although it needs a fix for re-pedaling that I've posted in another post). However the latter has very bad implementation of re-pedaling and half-pedaling and thus I won't recommend it. I haven't tried Ravenscroft but have heard it's not one of the best in that department. Also people say Ivory is good but it's a bit expensive. Pianoteq is also loved by many people but also hated by others, me included (due to its timbre being slightly synthetic). However there's a free demo of Pianoteq 6 with only a few of the black keys disabled, so you can easily test it without spending money. If I were you, I'd buy a good controller such as VPC1 and hook it up to the Pianoteq demo and see if I like it. If so, you can purchase the full version. If you don't like it, then you're probably a "timbre" guy, so you'd be better off with something like CFX Lite (cheap enough to be discarded if you don't like it).

I don't like Pianoteq but I agree with you that CFX lite/full version and Galaxy Vintage D are both excellent piano libraries and I would recommend either.

I'll also chip in with a recommendation for both the CFX and Pianoteq.
Personally I would start with Pianoteq since you can try it. I bought the CFX last summer and I find it great. It does sound a little better. However, Pianoteq makes me feel like I'm really playing a grand. The cfx, while (significantly) better than the other sampled vsts I have tried, is still not as realistic for playing as is Pianoteq.
Because of that, these days I play almost exclusively through Pianoteq (the Bluethner and the Grotrian).

One thing nice about using Pianoteq (especially for classical music) is that there are several add-on sounds that are designed to imitate the older classical pianos which are kind of "fun" to play with for some of the classical music.

The other good thing about Pianoteq is that you get to change the sound with the various parameters if you get into that sort of thing. I usually do not do that.

However, one thing I do is to reduce the volume on the bass notes a bit. I do not particularly like a BOOMING bass sound.

I would certainly give Pianoteq a try. It might be all you need.

I suppose you have several hardware paths including:

- Hybrid (AvantGrand or NV10)
- Console
- Slab

1. The hybrids have most authentic playing experience and good sounds. The very best actions. Expensive. No wasted time tweaking, just playing. If I were an advaced player with some extra cash, this would be my choice.

2. If you would like a VI, I suppose you could choose between Console and Slab pianos. Good units may have good built-in sounds, good actions, good speakers. The on-board electronics often are well optimized for excellent playability (which can be difficult to replicate with a VI).

===> None of the software VIs are perfect. A few VIs have very good sounds (to my ears). A few VIs have very good playability (to my mind). I don't think any VI is fantastic in both categories. Trial-and-error gets a bit expensive. Also, every VI has some defects and comprimises.

- VIs require some tweaking time to get best possible sound & responsiveness

- Hassle and cost of buying & optimizing computer, interface, speakers, speaker & piano placement, tweaking VI software, maybe tweaking Windoze 10 (if using windows)

- Monitors might sound best some distance from back wall. So appearance & space utilization is not fantastic

- I think you want a dedicated computer for VI so you can just start playing. It really matters

Also, throwing money at a VI system does not work. I have a ton of audio equipment stored at my house and get fantastic sound with some small old monitors, DIY wood monitor stands, a small old amplifier, a mid-tier laptop and cheap cables (there is an expensive interface but for OCD purposes). It just took me a LOT of time to get set-up sorted (e.g. get low latency response and measure/adjust room acoustics to get convincing sound).

Headphones are a lot easier and cheaper than speakers to sort out.

This forum has great range of people who are happy to help. It also has a lot of helpful historic threads.

I would consider the Roland FP90 over the VPC1. It has Roland's best keyboard action found on their $7000 digital pianos, every bit as good as the VPC1, but it's lighter, and it has internal sounds and speakers. I don't use the internal sounds (not the best) or the speakers (also not the best), but it makes a fantastic MIDI controller.
If I were you, I would buy a nice Kawai or Yamaha digital piano or an upright and ditch the VSTs and the monitors and cables. This takes time away from making music which you've been away from. Once you start getting your chops back, you could expand into VSTs and audio interfaces, and all of that.

Another one for Pianoteq. An elderly cheaper laptop will power it; mine's not even on the internet any more except to download latest pianoteq updates. I could easily do that using a memory stick off another computer.
I think it's fair to say it uses less resources than most if not every other VST out there. I find it hard not to dislike the sound of every digital piano available now that I've tried. It's either Pianoteq or an acoustic for me now.

I second the recommendation of Pianoteq and Garritan CFX.

There are a ton of options and parameters in VSTs, do not get overwhelmed or distracted by them 😀. They are fairly easy to set up and start using with a mid range laptop and help from folks on this forum, so just start playing with free Pianoteq demo and have fun!

Osho

Same here and I'm a far cry from a piano expert.
Once your ears get used to the quality of VSTi, internal sounds aren't going to cut it any longer. :X

I am also very fond of Pianoteq and use it to listen to midi files from pros.

Pianoteq has two advantages over most sample-based VST's:

1. You can get a free demo, to see if you hate it. If you don't hate it, you can buy Pianoteq Stage for 99 Euros, and see if you like that.

2. You don't need a huge amount of RAM, or a high-speed disk or CPU, to run it.

So -- at the very least -- it's a good place to start your journey.

I'm quite happy with "Binaural" Pianoteq Grotrian, through headphones, with a bit of reverb. It's not "just like a grand piano", but it's good enough for jazz.<g> And its decay time, and resonances, really are in "acoustic piano" territory.

All IMHO, of course.

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies! I have tried to carefully listen to the demo songs using headphones for Ravenscroft 275, Pianoteq 6, Garritan CFX, and Galaxy Vintage D, and they all seem great except Pianoteq. I find the resonance and decay of Pianoteq good, but the all important attack portion to be too "synthetic", or strange somehow. It's reminds me of the Roland SupoerNatural sound, although done better, but still unsatisfactory. Apologies to Pianoteq enthusiasts.

I was definitely impressed by the Yamaha hybrid action, and eventually may end up in that direction. Still, I find the virtual pianos sounds to be very much superior, so I would like consider options. Searching old posts leads me to think that playing virtual pianos routed through DP's speakers doesn't work very well? Perhaps I should get a hybrid and use the virtual piano when using headphones...

As for Bunneh's question "why not an upright", I have asked myself this question numerous times. And every time, the conclusion seems to be 1) I cannot practice at all when my kids are asleep (my prime practice time), 2) actions are rather slow and unresponsive even compared to digital actions, let alone acoustic grands, 3) the sound is so-so to bad in the lower registers, even for "nice" uprights.

Thanks all for your thoughts!

Try the Kawai k200 upwards. They play and sound much better than any digital to me.

Yes I have GAS for a K500. The one I tried sounded and felt the best in the shop I tried, and that included a couple of Steinway grands; although I suppose just like most acoustics that may have been because of their current state of tuning and regulation.

Has anybody ever bought a K200 Anytime or a Yamaha U1 Silent mostly as a VST controller?

I must confess the thought has crossed my mind several times, because I would love to have a 2nd acoustic in the house, even if it will be used 80% for headphone practice with a virtual piano.

A used U1 or K200 ATX goes for a similar price as a higher end digital here, around 3000-5000EUR depending on condition. Seems almost like a cheap way to get a Hybrid Piano action, while having a real upright too!

I took your advice and visited the piano store today. The K-800 had a very nice tone in the lower register, and K-500 was also a nice satisfying upright. The K series action was noticeably faster and more responsive than a typical upright. Not a huge amount (not 50%), but noticeable (10%?). So out of my three complaints about uprights, I can now strike out #3 (tone).

Still looking for that grand feel and sound without actually owning a grand. It's a tough problem. Maybe my wife would let me build a large sound proof shed in the back yard to house a 7' grand.

There's production voices' C7 (Production Grand). Spitfire also has Hans Zimmer man's Steinway (450 gb / 211 gb compressed) with effects and such. Both are VI's.