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I did write my position toward these things as a learner, and my reasoning. I hope we don't get stuck with the Ted Talk fellow, only.

Yes and no, Tim. If the surgeon has to worry about his technique in a life or death situation, he (or she) is going to screw up and kill the patient.

The difference between the surgeon and the performer: no one dies.

The performer simply dies on stage, which does not kill, but the performer may feel like he died...

In THIS topic?

It only takes a moment to google and put in a link. I can't find it.

EDIT: I found the link. Good ideas, but the guy does not know Jack about music or how we prepare.

The actual principles that the Ted Talk guy espouses as he talks about how people "perform their everyday tasks" are the same principles we use when we are practising. We gradually improve the level and quality of our playing as we observe things, learn and grow. These ideas are not new to a student who knows how to be a student, nor to a teacher who knows how to teach. A teacher will observe, suggest, etc. A poor quality teacher will simply go through routines every week.

None of this has anything to do with performance.

I would also say that the surgeon cannot afford to ever work mindlessly, so he is, in fact, observing himself all the time.

But again, the Ted Talk fellow has nothing to do with performance. Nor is there any idea that if you will perform (as in, play in front of someone), you will practice more, or with more quality practice.

I wrote about that latter idea. I wrote my position on it, as a student. I'm afraid that the Ted Talk thing will swallow that up. (I am not asking that response to be from you specifically, Gary). I deleted two of my posts yesterday because I had given up.

I think it may be best to withdraw from the topic.

Yes, but he talked about "performing pieces over and over again" on guitar, as a teen, so he has NO idea of what musicians mean by performing.

What he is talking about is inefficient practice/playing, what I call "Let's pretend". Play from the beginning, straight through. So he is utterly ignorant of the correct musical process.

I don't comment on your long posts because I don't even know where to start.

I agree with this.

That's what usually happens in forums.

People have already decided what they believe, and they just want their preexisting ideas confirmed by others who have the same preexisting ideas.

My students will waste 95% of their time unless I remind them each work that their ways of playing/working are not efficient or even fun, in the long run.

Some listen, and they end up playing well.

Some do not, and they progress slowly or not at all.

It is what it is.

Unfortunately this often seems to be so.

I am going to reiterate what I wrote earlier, but briefer - not about the Ted Talk guy - but my own views. The question was about performance causing a person to practice more or better.

My goal as a student is to get skills and knowledge that I need and can't get by myself. I want that because I'm enough of a musician to know that if I get these, they will help me to:
- play things I can't currently play because of what I'm lacking
- get there more efficiently, because I know more and can do more
- make my music sound better

I have learned that the best way to get at these things for me is by going there directly, going at the most difficult areas, sometimes visiting numerous pieces that have the same challenges but not pushing any of them to perfection, doing etudes and exercises, studying theory in a practical way. The reward of working this way is that when I go after a piece I care for, the quality and ease is greater than before. That motivates me.

You have to do the opposite for performances, say recitals. You put your best foot forward, so you choose pieces you can play easily, and areas where you have no difficulty. You have to polish and polish that piece, work on less things. This steals time away from the "learning activities" that I want to be doing. In turn, it will cause my motivation to wane, and I will have to force myself to keep at the "performance piece" when that's not what I want to be doing.

This is how performance (recitals etc.) affect me and my practising. I lived it over 10 years ago. Others may experience things differently.

keystings, I read your post, I really enjoy reading what others think and write. I normally do not work on a piece for performance (to play in front of someone) so it is never perfect, not to say one that I work on is either. The last one I did, my teacher made me. My husband and I hired him for a Christmas party and he told me I need to play something. I am happy I did, at least my family will think the past 3 and a half years of lessons results in some type of skill. I really thought this was going to be easier, like you practice and then you "get it." In my college days I thought music majors really were there for an easy degree, I take it back.

I think a piece you are going to play in front of someone should not be worked on exclusively, but in combination with the technical skills. I generally starts months in advance if I know I am going to play for someone so it gives me time. I worked on the Christmas song for 2 months and it was part of my practice routine.

I think that what I object to is any idea that we need some kind of whip behind us such as the possible embarrassment in public (in a performance) to get us to practice, and if that threat is not there, we will practice less.

The scenario I portrayed in my last post was rather black and white. To start, I was thinking of students, not professional performers. I have done recitals and performed a couple of things otherwise, and I did enjoy those occasions. The first recitals also were a learning experience in playing in front of others. I also experienced something I dubbed "recital season" - 2 months before the biannual recitals when the focus was on the recital piece where everything else seemed put on the back burner, so that 1/3 of the year's lessons were mostly eaten up by preparing the recital piece. Of course there is a question of balance. But even if ..... if you're working or running a business and there is only so much time, and if that time has to be spent polishing a piece so you can't get at other pieces and other elements of music, that to me is demotivating.

If a performance is PART of the learning activities - and for me, the lesser part, or secondary part, then I'm fine with that.

But I'll end what I started with:in regard to the idea of threat such as risk of a poor performance getting someone to practice, I can't relate to the idea that the lack of such a risk would get someone to practice less.

Actually in real and effective practice and learning, you work in stages, levels, and layers. Any attempt at perfection or woodshedding will be counterproductive esp. in the long run, and this kind of thinking may lead to that. What most teachers are happy about is if they taught their student to count, that the student comes in the next week, counting, because that's what they practised. It's the little steps. To me these are the things that lead to everything else - that are effective - so for me they are primary, and also the primary motivators.

I can't explain it better than that.

I agree absolutely.

Thank you for sharing your story. It's a lovely one, with your teacher actually being hired for the Christmas party and then taking the occasion to get you to perform. What a wise teacher.

keystring,

I have read all of your posts in this thread, and I have to say that I agree with your thoghts, especially the part "I object to is any idea that we need some kind of whip behind us such as the possible embarrassment in public (in a performance) to get us to practice, and if that threat is not there, we will practice less." That describes me as a piano student as well.

This is common.

It's not the way I teach.

My students "polish" as we review. We pick things that are easier than the hardest things they are working on. Then we spend a few weeks, usually a maximum of one month, getting things ready to be played.

To me it is counter-productive to spend more time while students are still in the development stage. This leads to over-memorization and muscle memory, and it's not good for moving forward.

Gary, could you define what you mean by "over-memorization"?

Keystring, I enjoy reading your posts, and wish I hadn't missed the first of the two you deleted yesterday.

When students rely too much on memorization, thus taking too long to learn things and polish them.

This leads to a very small repertoire, and things have to be played endlessly to keep them up. The result is weak reading.

Shared privately.

It describes all of us who are independent learners and self-motivated.

I can't be threatened, intimidated or coerced, and this has not worked with me since I was in my middle teens.

I never do this to students. NEVER. If any of them have the inner drive and talent to become good musicians, those things have to come from them, not me.

This is why I call recitals "rectals". For many of my favorite students, that is about as pleasant as their recital experiences were. I've lost track of how many adults quit lessons, as young people, because of being forced into playing in recitals.

I encourage all players to perform, but only when they want to, and in a setting where they feel safe.

Thanks for clarifying, Gary.

Got it, Keystring. PMed you back.