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What I have tried to do is to bring to the surface the main possible issues in a broad spectrum that can exist. We have a wide range of people from all over the world who have extremely varied experiences in the area of piano study and music study. This includes both students and teachers: people who had good or bad lessons as children, people who started as adults, and teachers with their experiences both in teaching and when they were students. ALL of them are coming together here.

Anyone reading what anyone else is saying is likely to relate those things to his own experiences, and the chance of getting a distorted picture is high. Therefore I put all the variables I could think of out there. Some people who reacted to this or that might get a fresh view of "So that's what I was picturing." or .... "So that's what the person reading my words was imagining."

The whole thing is fraught with booby traps. What does a person mean by "playing" versus "practising"? What do you picture when..... I wrote two long kitchen-sink posts, from two opposing sides, because I felt this might be of use as a kind of reference, something to check back on.

There's an element right there in that kitchen sink collection. For example, there are teachers who aim to make music "fun" in a superficial manner, who expect everyone to want instant gratification. If I'm not learning and growing, that's a turn-off. Some such teachers may think that "learning" means - a new piece - another new piece - another new piece - no new skills, no new knowledge - that to me is depressing. I put a number elements in my original two posts for a reason.

I can identify with that. That first dragging to the bench is an important step, though.

Sure. We can go round and round about the words we use.

But that was not my point.

My point was that many people associate playing or practicing - whatever you want to call it - with something that is unpleasant, an obligation, responsibility, duty.

Again, that's not what I'm getting at. I'm saying that concentration and guided effort can be fun, or it can be a torture.

You have a very good point there, but for some reason this does not seem to resonate with everyone...for me it seems to make all the difference for an adult starter with other responsibilities who wants to progress and be able to play more advanced music. AFAIK most never go beyond the basics.

But I frequently read about how one must endure boredom and other sorts of suffering especially in the beginning. I cannot help wondering why it seems so very alien to me. What have I missed?

For you practice is like video gaming must be for a lot of kids. (It has no appeal for me, but I have relatives who play endlessly.)

So one question that occurs to me: is it live, or Memorex?

Er, sorry, wrong commercial. Is it inherent in your makeup that you are drawn to music and see it as rewarding? Or can a person decide to approach it that way consciously?

I also remember that in my college days I developed some considerable skill practicing some activities mostly because I was avoiding doing something else that was more important.

Hi dogperson, just generally speaking that if I have to constantly implore students and parents to spend more than a freaking half hour a week at the piano, clearly they are viewing it as something like "homework." I changed my wording from "practice" to "play.".

It has "no appeal":

Are you talking about piano, or trombone, or playing video games?

If you are talking about what you do to prepare for piano lessons, I certainly hope that none of the people who come to me feel as you seem to be saying you do.

If the process is not interesting and its own reward, most people will quit.

That's simply a fact.

I don't know why the process is not interesting for some people. But I do know that if it is not, adults will not last more than a year, and usually a much shorter period than that.

I believe success means this, for most people:

They start out thinking that there is SOMETHING they want to be able to play. And that something is at least a vague goal. It may be something pop, or Romantic, or Baroque. Anything.

So, how long will it take for them to play this "something" well enough to feel good about it?

And will they be able to do it?

If they have something reasonable for a goal, something that is doable for most people in the first year or so, then it's a matter of how long it takes to get this one "thing".

Then it's the next "thing".

If people do not have the skills to play what they want, they will eventually quit. If it takes too long, meaning weak reading skills, something else is taking too long, they will quit.

For most people you see success happen in the first 6 months. A few move slower but are stubborn, or persistent, a great urge to accomplish what they want to do. They will stay at it longer.

But something has to happen in a reasonable length of time.

Piano in a Flash...

What most people are probably not getting: If you move from piece to piece, and each piece builds so that you have solid skills, it is a way in. That is essentially how I was taught. But my first teacher, my grandmother, was very good at teaching basics, which I absorbed.

We went over lines and spaces each week, so by the time I had had lessons for about a year, I knew them. We did not go over scales enough, so that was a hole that had to be fixed later. She did not teach chord structure, so that was a hole.

These things I teach all students.

Music is mostly chords and scales. You have to understand basics of fingering. You have to be able to find the lines and spaces easily. You have to understand how to count.

These are all skills, basics. If you do not have them, you will not play well, and sooner or later not playing well will lead to frustration, which leads to quitting.

The words don't matter. It only means that IF you have a negative feeling about the process, sooner or later you will quit. As an adult you do not have a mommy or a daddy to say, "Did you play/practice today? How long? No computer games until you get your PRACTICE done."

Now, people need to turn this around:

"How long did you practice on your I-pod today? I hope you got at least 30 minutes of PRACTICE, or you won't get to play the piano."

I will repeat: my time at the piano each day was a high point. I could not wait to get back at it. All of my students who are doing well tell me that they feel the same way, of all ages. The ones who are not making progress don't enjoy it.

Now, do they not enjoy it because they are not doing well?

Or did they never put in enough time to find out if they MIGHT enjoy it?

This is why I talk about a "honeymoon period". If what I teach does not connect, if somehow I am not able to help beginners do something that impresses themselves, enough so that they want to commit to more lessons, it's all going to fail. The only question is: How long until they quit?

Scott Houston has part of this right. He's very good at hooking people. He sells them on the idea that what he teaches is easy and will lead to success. I personally believe it's smoke in the mirror, but at least people START with him and start OUT feeling that they CAN do what he is teaching.

Adults?

People who are successful at learning an instrument and playing it well don't get there in six months, or even a year.

Why would any adult continue slogging away, year after year, when it is "a bit of a chore"?

Where is the pay-off?

The only thing I can think of is that these "chores" give results that work in other areas of music, and the rewards there are worth the chore.

But there has to be a reward somewhere, because no one is paying us to play/practice, and lessons cost money.

I've read through the most recent posts since mine this morning. What I have caught on to, Gary, is that you are talking about when this "thing we do when learning to play the piano" is considered an unpleasant chore, a duty. There is indeed an attitude out there which goes this way, so now I know what you are saying. I agree that this would cause most students to not stay long with that activity.

I'm thinking further about this. I'd say that many don't know how to practise or work toward skills and I'd venture that numbers of teachers are also clueless in this regard. I am careful usually not to use the word "technique" because a lot of people will then conjure up hours of "playing scales, chords, and etudes over and over" as if that in itself taught anything! "Reading" -- you get notebooks, pencils, labeling things. These things are tedious, boring, and above all, ineffective. This is where the "unpleasant chore" idea starts. And then you "have to" play boring beginner pieces. None of it with purpose, or learning, or discovery. This won't last long, I agree.

But we can fall from the frying pan into the fire, one wrong replacing the other, when the ee-zee-fun thing takes its place. Here the teacher (or method book) wants to avoid music being a chore, presenting any difficulties or any degree of work --- the nature of this approach should be apparent in the name I gave it. Because we do need the skills and knowledge; that is how we become self sufficient. It is through these two things that we can actually put our own vision into the music we are playing. This, too, won't last long- especially for the student who did originally want to learn. It is as satisfying as weeks of candy floss (esp. if you don't like sweets).


In fact, the skills, the basics, are fascinating, if introduced properly. They are also not "chores" if approached in a good way. Some skills CAN be frustrating --- in fact extremely frustrating --- while getting a hang of them, but that is not the same as a chore when you go forward. In fact, people thrive from growth and challenges.

The thing that I can relate to especially is the rejection of the idea of "tedious, uninspiring chore".


I really don't know. I started lessons on a new instrument and had never had lessons before. I did amazingly for about 8 months. I passed an exam with flying colours. And then I was struggling and everything crashed. The things that I (didn't) learned could not sustain anything. The subsequent struggles are still a very unpleasant memory, because I am not the kind of student to give up. I believe strongly that the first six months of lessons are probably the most important ones, because everything else tends to reside on them. What happens if you have to start over and relearn? It's rhetorical, since I've lived it.

Your post was a little cryptic for me but hopefully I got the point

Yes, indeed I think piano practice for me has been a bit like video gaming is for some people. I remember that in the early years I had trouble concentrating at work because I was already waiting to get to my piano and practice some tricky thing after work. My job at the time was a little boring...that does not happen anymore, I am too focused on the job.

I do have the ability to get hooked on a video game as well, but lost interest in them after a while for some reason. I guess the work required to "get into" a game just doesn't feel worthwhile.

Music on the other hand...you must be right that it is inherent for me to be drawn to music and I have a hard time imagining my life without it. Is this a requirement for success in instrument studies for an adult? I don't know. Can it be taught? I guess not, but at least the teacher can help by suggesting options to what seems boring and uninteresting to the student.

I have noticed that some people start learning the piano because they are drawn to the physical task (beginners spending weeks or months on scales or hanon and trying to get faster). This element was missing from me, it was always music first, physical skills second. Some of the latter is simply required to make the first.
Interestingly many "impossible" technical challenges became doable only after they were introduced in music, out of the context my coordination just fell short.

Then another question: Why did I find practicing so enjoyable that I could return to it day after day for years even if could not play the music in a way that I really wanted (easily and sounding wonderful)? I have always practiced carefully and mindfully trying to make something work better and never just satisfied with the current state of my ablity. I think I naturally have the right mindset for it and also already possessed the basic knowledge how to practice in a goal oriented and efficient way. I believe this can be taught to an adult, but can be a bit tedious at first, especially if the former element (pure interest in the piano as a music making tool is missing completely). I doubt it's about the amount of practice so much though. It's about those moments of invention, when you realize how a specific practice method gets you to the goal. These small moments of success are important and make you want to use the method again and again to solve new puzzles.

But I cannot stress the importance of my wonderful teacher enough: I self learned for about 3 months and quickly realized there was some secret to piano playing that I did not get. I lacked the understanding of the instrument and how one gets the piano to work for you instead of against you. That clearly can be taught even if the work required for proficiency is done by the student.

..

Sorry. No antecedent for that pronoun - very poor writing.

Video gaming has no appeal for me. I don't know why. It seems to be designed to hook people easily, and it does that very well.

Part of it may be the social milieu. People of an age to play video games probably find most of their peers do the same, and there is some group reinforcement. People of my age may have more friends who play instruments, and that may be part of the appeal. I dunno.

.

Gary, did you ever think of suggesting Google Play apps, there are a bunch out there ones for reading notes, identifying scales, intervals, etc. Also, you may want to work on easy duets for a change of pace. I am motivated when I see other people play and think, I want to play like that.

This is a very interesting thread. It has led me to think more about practice and reevaluate my approach.

I wonder about another possible factor.

Some people derive all their reward from playing privately. They will take lessons and dedicate themselves to practice, without ever intending to perform. Maybe the knowledge that this is their path affects how they feel about practice?

That's not me. I practice for the purpose of performing better. That doesn't mean practice is necessarily painful or a chore, but it does mean I have to do it whether I want to that day or not. I'm not always driven or pulled by the music in front of me, but by the concert Sunday, etc.

Still thinking.

I have no opportunity to perform, but it does not affect how I practice

Tim, I think maybe people are afraid to perform in front of people. As a child taking music lessons, I had no problem playing in front of people. Now at the age of 57, I do. I started taking again 4 years ago. I wanted to play for my dad who was in a nursing home. I hired my instructor to play for the nursing home residents for Father's Day, a year ago when my dad was living. I played a duet with my instructor. I had to stop after the first page, I started to sweat and my glasses fogged, I could not see the music. Once I regrouped I was ok. I can speak in front of 100 people but have difficulty playing in front of one. I still do, but I force myself to play when given the opportunity. It is getting better, I don't have to stop in the middle of a song. I still get nervous at my lessons, the other day the instructor put on his jacket and said this room was cold and I said I thought it was too warm. We hired my instructor to play for the family for a Christmas party, I played the first song (solo), I was driven by the fact I would be playing in front of family and friends. Not playing a duet I had no one to cover for me!