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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2775418
10/25/18 11:27 AM
10/25/18 11:27 AM
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France
Frédéric L Offline
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You can use some a software which displays the MIDI events it is receiving : MIDI-Ox or the demo of Pianoteq (the MIDI setup option showba MIDI monitor). Both are free.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Clermont] #2775497
10/25/18 05:22 PM
10/25/18 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Clermont
Thank you to all of you for the high level of the discussion. I'll played on grand piano too (steinway, bosendorfer, yamaha C.., Bechstein, Kawai GX) and I never met such a bounce on the action. May be on the KAWAI GL (I don't know that one) but it's a piano in the bottom of the range ? If I add the quality problems I think that it is urgent to wait the NOVUS version 2.



Just for fun, here's the key bounce on a 7ft Bosendorfer with a Renner action (in 1/4 time slow motion):
[Linked Image]


And here's the key bounce on the NV-10's Millennium III (again in slow motion):
[Linked Image]

To me, the NV-10's bounce looks a bit more prominent, but the key returns to resting faster. On the Bose, there's a slight pause before the bounce.

In reality, I don't notice the bounce on either while playing trills or fast repeated notes, but it's entirely likely that I'm just not at a level where it matters.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2775504
10/25/18 05:44 PM
10/25/18 05:44 PM
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So. Calif.
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Great demonstration Gobressa. Regarding a software update, I will have to thonk about installing it since I am not experiencing all these problems.


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2775570
10/25/18 11:37 PM
10/25/18 11:37 PM
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Thank you Frederic L I will try it.
As said TomLC it's a great demonstration Gombessa.
It's probably because the size of the key is longer and the hammer heavier on the bosendorfer, but in fact bounce as no matter for the trills or fast repeated notes because in this case the hammer does not return to the rest position because of the escapment that keeps it in the intermediate position and allows to restart it without the need to fall completely.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2775582
10/26/18 03:04 AM
10/26/18 03:04 AM
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Gombessa, thank you for your demonstration. Your posts are always smart. All I'm saying is that Kawai stops taking us for kids. The NOVUS does not have a concert piano mechanics but a low-end mechanics (GL ....). And this piano is not completed and has a lot of quality problems. That said I am terribly disappointed because I was waiting for its release for a year.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: arc7urus] #2775596
10/26/18 04:45 AM
10/26/18 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus

Are there any specifications of the GL, GX and SK models that indicate the actual key length? Is the key length on the GL models changing with the size of the piano? I only find a reference to "longer keys" on the "longer" GX and SK grands, but there is nothing specific. Moreover, all models state "Millennium III" as the action mechanism, but there are likely to be differences in longer and/or higher-end models. Or is the action actually the same?


No, not short of getting a tape measure out in the shop. I'm not sure it matters much really once you're up to a reasonable length. The returns in terms of more even key feel are pretty diminished and there are disadvantages too for super long keys, namely flex making the feel mushy - hence the really long key buttons, or often buttons upon buttons, in an attempt to stiffen the key up. The primary purpose of longer keys in longer pianos is simply to get the strike point of the action in the right place on the strings.

As for the action itself, that is usually the same across pianos. I think yamaha uses a different hammer shank wood in its higher end ones but generally there's simply no return on the manufacturing costs to produce multiple actions. The standard to which they are regulated obviously varies mind...

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2775597
10/26/18 04:58 AM
10/26/18 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

In reality, I don't notice the bounce on either while playing trills or fast repeated notes, but it's entirely likely that I'm just not at a level where it matters.


The key bounces when it hits the bottom (on the far end). If you're playing rapid repeated notes or trills, you won't let it come all the way up anyway.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Clermont] #2775637
10/26/18 09:51 AM
10/26/18 09:51 AM
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Germany
JoBert Offline OP
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Cool comparison videos, Gombessa. smile

The two look quite comparable to me, with just the sort of slight differences that you would expect between two actions from two different brands. But without one being obviously different than the other (talking solely about the "bouncing" behavior).


Originally Posted by Clermont
The NOVUS does not have a concert piano mechanics but a low-end mechanics (GL ....).

That's a misrepresentation, or at least it can be easily misunderstood.

If by "mechanics" you mean mainly the key sticks (especially key length / pivot point distance), then you are right.

But if by "mechanics" you mean the action (separately from the keys, as it is usually seen), then even though it is true that the NV10 has the same action as the GL series, the GX and SK series also have the same action, including the SK-EX concert grand. All are (currently) using the Millennium III action - same as the NV10.

Granted, it is likely that there are quality differences on the different levels, even if they all use the same action. So that the higher you get (i.e. GX and SK), the action probably undergoes more and more levels of quality control and regulation.

But the general basis, i.e. the mechanics and the materials and pieces used in it, are indeed the same. At least that's the impression that you get from the way how Kawai talks about its Millennium III action.

I'm applying a sort of "reverse logic" here: The official Shigeru Kawai website espouses all the special virtues that you can find in the SK pianos: Concert agraffes, Konsei Katagi rim, Kigarashi premium aged soundboard, all-spruce beams, boxwood bridge caps, dual-pivot dampers, Temaki bass strings, Shiko Seion hammers, extended keysticks, concert length key buttons, stretcher over-lap integrated design, and so on. Lot's of "see how cool this is!" buzz words.
And about the action? It "just" states "Millennium III action" (with the usual description of its ABS-cabon properties that you also find e.g. in the GL or NV10 descriptions).
Seeing how much effort was put into highlighting all the special stuff, I am sure, that if the SK-line had a special version of the Millennium III action, with "special super-duper only used for SK" materials, or properties, or whatever, that this would be mentioned. I mean, they mentioned every other detail down to the smallest thing. They surely wouldn't leave something like that out and pass on the chance to espouse how the SK-action is even better than the GX (or GL) action!

That leaves me convinced, that they are indeed using the same action for all (current) pianos, and that the differences (which I'm also sure are there) are to be found in the craftsmanship and effort that are applied to regulating and testing/quality-control the action, to bring it to it's best performance.

To turn this around: If you hired a Kawai master technician to regulate your NV10 action in the same manner as he would do for an SK customer, the results (purely focused on the action itself) would probably be comparable.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2775640
10/26/18 10:09 AM
10/26/18 10:09 AM
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The parts of the action between the keystick and the hammer shank are the same on all Kawai Millennium III actions, from the NV10 all the way up the the Shigeru concert grand. It's not a particularly expensive part, so there's no reason to restrict its usage to the most expensive pianos.

There are many other things that make a Shigeru action feel so wonderful.

Last edited by johnstaf; 10/26/18 10:18 AM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2775646
10/26/18 10:34 AM
10/26/18 10:34 AM
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Thank you Jobert your answer is very interesting. It would be worth asking a seller if it is possible to adjust this mechanism before delivery. I'll ask my tuner what he thinks about this the next time I'll see him

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2777424
11/02/18 06:47 AM
11/02/18 06:47 AM
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Hello,

After a 4-month wait for Kawai Service, I was taken care of and I have just been delivered a new NV10 from Kawai Europe GmbH.
This new NV10 is aesthetically perfect this time. (The old NV10 had a default on the upper board)
There is more noise when you touch the screen, the insulation seems ok :-)

Alas, there is exactly the same distortion problem in the speakers as the previous NV10 unit :-(
We hear this distortion in the high frequencies, it is added to the fabulous sound of the pianist mode and it distorts everything, it makes me think of a bad conversion of the sampling frequency of the audio engine. ... This problem is unacceptable in an instrument of this price.
I am ashamed to make my novus listen to my musicians friends when they come :-(

I saw on the forum below that there were a dozen users concerned by this problem (opus64, vancedo, Phoerocks, Saurav, Cliowa, play BACH, abarax, Treeb, myself...)

Kawai had announced to me by phone that this Novus New would be guaranteed tested and verified by a technician in Germany who would have contributed to the development of the product. Also I am even more disappointed to be delivered a new defective piano. I do not know what to think of this current production of Novus ...

It is inconceivable for me to keep this piano which costs 9000 € and which has this horrible sound. If I had known before I was going to be confronted with these problems, this time lost to writing to you, to suffer the silence of Kawai I would never have ordered it ...
I have a little hope that Kawai will find a solution but I am so afraid that this is a major hardware problem that I am very worried.

To finish on something positive, I want to say that Kawai James always answered me very kindly, Sav Kawai France was very understanding and pleasant and I also thank Sav Kawai Germany for having delivered this new NV10 at home. From my point of view the new SK rendering is fabulous and far ahead of the competition both Hardware (Yamaha, Roland) and Software (Ivory AG, Keyscape LAC7). Also, I am sad to see that all the work of the novus team, this new sound bank and Novus's design efforts to make us dream and give us pleasure only gives me much more than worry. I envy users who have a Novus that delivers a clear sound.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2777427
11/02/18 07:52 AM
11/02/18 07:52 AM
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I would like to see a "defect" novus in reallife to judge if it's really the instrument or the user. I can't believe that the second instrument, which is tested right before has the same issue right after passing the users door.


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyr] #2777430
11/02/18 08:17 AM
11/02/18 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyr
I would like to see a "defect" novus in reallife to judge if it's really the instrument or the user. I can't believe that the second instrument, which is tested right before has the same issue right after passing the users door.


I've heard the problem in a shop myself so I'm pretty sure the 'hissing' issue is real.
I agree it is weird that this would pass through Kawai QA. However, it is a very high-frequency sound added on top of the normal piano sound. You need to have a bit good ears which 1) are able to hear these high frequencies (ability which declines with age) and 2) also be able to discern the artifacts in the sound. Regarding the latter: there's a lot of difference between how people hear the same sounds and what they can identify in it. You can completely miss an aspect/detail of a sound unless you know what to pay attention to, and it sometimes it requires 'training' to hear more in a sound.

So perhaps the person testing the piano simply didn't hear it due to one (or both) of the above reasons?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2777436
11/02/18 08:52 AM
11/02/18 08:52 AM
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So. Calif.
TomLC Offline
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It is true that my old ears don't hear this "hissing" sound. However, I just listened to Gerard's trio on YT. He obviously knows what a piano should sound like. As I've discussed on this forum there is the upper register ringing from the undamped strings. But it sounds good from the speakers. Not so much when pumped into my ears with headphones. I would imagine the Steinway Gerard was playing has the same high end resonance.

Gerard; What grand piano do you normally play (own)? Does it display the same high end resonance or is this perhaps the typical sound of a SK-EX concert grand?


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2777452
11/02/18 09:44 AM
11/02/18 09:44 AM
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Tyr Offline
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Quote
So perhaps the person testing the piano simply didn't hear it due to one (or both) of the above reasons?


Maybe.... or i can hear it too but i don't recognize it as a strange noise rather than just a part of the piano sound. crazy smile

I mean, i can hear a lot more hissing and rining on the sound modes warm grand setting but it feels and sounds much more alive and "correct" than the pianist mode renders.

Last edited by Tyr; 11/02/18 09:45 AM.

Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyr] #2777461
11/02/18 10:18 AM
11/02/18 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyr
[quote]So perhaps the person testing the piano simply didn't hear it due to one (or both) of the above reasons?[/quote

I mean, i can hear a lot more hissing and rining on the sound modes warm grand setting but it feels and sounds much more alive and "correct" than the pianist mode renders.


I'll try that out. I believe the Warm Grand is an older rendering. Maybe Harmonic Imagining from 2014 or Harmonic Imagining 2 from 2015. I had that in my CN37 and in the K200atx2 that I had for about a month. I was wondering if Kawai had updated those older sounds for the newer pianos. But if you notice the background is different from the SK and EX background on the display. Maybe K-James can clarify?


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2777471
11/02/18 10:57 AM
11/02/18 10:57 AM
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Gérard Offline
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It is unfair to judge the owner of a defective novus for lunatics or liars.

Small precision, Kawai agreed to make an exchange because I had more problem, a major aesthetic default. The top board where there is the desk and the speakers was veiled and twisted.

I know the timbral richness of a concert acoustic piano. I played many times in the studio and in concert the Steinway D, C, B, Fazioli F212, F308, Yamaha CFIIIS and CFX, C7, C5, C3, Kawai RX and SK pianos.

I have experience of digital pianos, I have often played: Before Big N3, Kawai MP8, MP11, CA, ES8, Yamaha P255, CLP 585, NU1, Korg Kronos, Kurzweil PC3K8, Roland RD2000 etc ...

I will try to describe the problem of the sound of the speakers since there is not the problem with the headphone output and the Line OUT output. Imagine the fabulous sound of the SK-EX Concert Grand piano mode and add a piano sound modulated with an OVERDRIVE that you put at 10% in the mix. You can listen to your ears speakers to hear more precisely this Buzz is not very strong but ubiquitous. It's a noise that I would call digital noise or distortion.

I do not want to tarnish Kawai's image with the video below. Moreover when I have a Novus that works I will publish videos or we will hear the quality of this instrument. Before buying it I went to try it in Marseille and I know it is fabulous, the Novus I played in Marseille worked perfectly and I was immediately seduced by the sound and the touch. I played it for 1 hour at France Piano, a store that I recommend and that made me a very friendly welcome.


The sound is subtle, the video is to listen with a headset or with good monitors, the buzz looks like a sheet of paper or aluminum that would be placed on the speaker.

https://youtu.be/m4QkOn0GXbE

After that I do not want to argue and I'm sure Kawai is working hard to find a solution and that the Novus will eventually have the success it deserves.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2777475
11/02/18 11:55 AM
11/02/18 11:55 AM
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Hi Gerard, I am usually pretty tolerant when it comes to dps, but your video clearly demonstrates an intolerable problem. It is very, very easy to hear! I can only imagine one test that would make it absolute. Move it into another room in your house just to be certain it is not from the environment. From your experience with a perfect Novus 10 this must be solvable. I hope Kawai will send a technician again and either fix it or replace it. A very bad mark on Kawai if they do not! But I advise you keep at the problem and hopefully you will see a wonderful victory and conclusion. Keep fighting and don't give up Gerard! ( it is painful, but life can be a lot worse!)


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gérard] #2777477
11/02/18 11:58 AM
11/02/18 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Gérard
It is unfair to judge the owner of a defective novus for lunatics or liars.


hahaha - I think you make a good case here Gérard.

On your video, the line-out certainly sounds better than the onboard speakers to recorded mic. I suppose Kawai runs just a 2 channel to the line-outs but multichannel audio to the speakers somehow, so the piano speaker distortion could be any number of things from the original samples through to the speaker drivers.

Going forward, you have a lot of options, including: running line out to some Focal monitors on top of the piano, waiting for Kawai to possibly address your issue, trying to return-exchange piano, selling the NV-10.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: newer player] #2777575
11/02/18 05:04 PM
11/02/18 05:04 PM
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Hello everybody,

3 days ago my brand-new Kawai NV10 arrived. Two things which really make me upset:

1. The legs. After connecting all the parts, the legs are bent towards the center of the piano (especially the right one), like here:Kawai NV10 bent legs. Did I make a mistake connecting it or it should be like that?
2. The noise. A murmur strictly speaking (like turned on radio without any station tuned). It's really annoying. You can heare it from all 4 upper speakers and it's really noticable from the lower speaker (behind the pedals). It is so annoying that I can tell if the piano is on or off without looking on it and staying 2-3 meters from it. Is this normal in a brand-new instrument from 2018 and almost 9000 EUR price?!?! What can I do with this? I have also Yamaha CLP-280 (12 years old) and it does not produce such noise almost at all!

Last edited by buchacz; 11/02/18 05:10 PM.

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buchacz
Kawai NV10, Yamaha CLP-280
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2777598
11/02/18 06:21 PM
11/02/18 06:21 PM
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So. Calif.
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Did you assemble this yourself? Or did the movers? If possible (You don't show where you are located) call your dealer and have them send someone to reassemble it. It looks and sounds like something's not connected properly. And no, the legs are not supposed to be on an angle.


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2777642
11/02/18 09:10 PM
11/02/18 09:10 PM
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Buchacz: Check the Line-in Volume knob under the table and turn it to the left. Also make sure no Bluetooth device is accidentally connected.

Regarding the legs: It's impossible to assemble the legs in a wrong way.


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2777647
11/02/18 10:31 PM
11/02/18 10:31 PM
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The legs on mine also bend towards the center. I believe that is by design.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2777663
11/03/18 12:11 AM
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Ah, first generation hardware problems.

I feel incredible sympathy for folks who are not happy with the new Novus. I'm confident Kawai tried very hard to make Novus as perfect as they could, but it is almost impossible for first generation electronic hardware to be perfect. For those of you watching from the sidelines, usually the second revision firmware comes out after about 6 months (I think Kawai already released one), and second generation hardware comes out a year after the initial release. And as I expect Novus product cycle to be much longer than other Kawai consumer DPs, expect further hardware and software updates over the years. These "minor" bugs will eventually (hopefully?) be worked out, and those fixes hopefully available to existing customers at reasonable costs.

In comparison, Yamaha AvantGrand N2 still has the sustain pedal increases volume problem, even after 10 years. And that newly noticed B3 buzz. If N2X came out tomorrow, I would think about waiting a year or so before picking one up, as there inevitably will be bugs with the first release. And I would try my best to not end up with a first gen N2X that was just sitting around.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: redfish1901] #2777666
11/03/18 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by redfish1901
Ah, first generation hardware problems.

I feel incredible sympathy for folks who are not happy with the new Novus. I'm confident Kawai tried very hard to make Novus as perfect as they could, but it is almost impossible for first generation electronic hardware to be perfect. For those of you watching from the sidelines, usually the second revision firmware comes out after about 6 months (I think Kawai already released one), and second generation hardware comes out a year after the initial release. And as I expect Novus product cycle to be much longer than other Kawai consumer DPs, expect further hardware and software updates over the years. These "minor" bugs will eventually (hopefully?) be worked out, and those fixes hopefully available to existing customers at reasonable costs.

In comparison, Yamaha AvantGrand N2 still has the sustain pedal increases volume problem, even after 10 years. And that newly noticed B3 buzz. If N2X came out tomorrow, I would think about waiting a year or so before picking one up, as there inevitably will be bugs with the first release. And I would try my best to not end up with a first gen N2X that was just sitting around.



No offense but people like you make business company feel less responsible. I am quite pissed with Kawai but your post even make me more furious.

Originally Posted by redfish1901
Ah, first generation hardware problems.
I'm confident Kawai tried very hard to make Novus as perfect as they could, but it is almost impossible for first generation electronic hardware to be perfect. For those of you watching from the sidelines, usually the second revision firmware comes out after about 6 months (I think Kawai already released one), and second generation hardware comes out a year after the initial release. And as I expect Novus product cycle to be much longer than other Kawai consumer DPs, expect further hardware and software updates over the years. These "minor" bugs will eventually (hopefully?) be worked out, and those fixes hopefully available to existing customers at reasonable costs.



This is the most BS thing I have ever heard. Who are you to be confident on behalf of Kawai? Does Kawai admit the fault? Not even once. They dont even say a damn thing to make furious customers feel at ease. 1st gen is impossible to be perfect? Lol, then every single electronic is defect at 1st gen? Tell me straight, say any product that is defect like Nv10. I know you cant. Holy, I admire your positive thinking. Every single person who comes and looks at piano all interest in it but I say dont buy at the time. Yamaha defect doesnt mean Kawai has the right to be the same. I am sick of thinking like "oh, the other brand is defect so it is totally ok for another."

Last edited by vancedo; 11/03/18 12:31 AM.

Kawai Novus NV10
www.youtube.com/vangakuz
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2777670
11/03/18 12:59 AM
11/03/18 12:59 AM
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jgbs Offline
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France
Hi,

As far as mine is concerned, the distortion of sound is perfectly audible and extremely annoying, both on the HP and on the headphones, and even the line output, but much more effective on the HP.
This is obviously not subjective, first of all because I'm not the only one since many posts on this thread speak about it, but also because my seller confirmed to me that Kawai is aware and works on this problem.
It seems that this is sampling and that a new version of software should come out soon.
In any case this problem should not manifest on all NV10, because it is impossible not to realize so much this parasite is awkward and makes the sound of the piano almost unbearable.
And oddly the level of these distortions is variable and sometimes the sound is almost correct, but never perfectly.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2777681
11/03/18 02:57 AM
11/03/18 02:57 AM
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rolex67 Offline
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Redfish, your post is irrelevant....
Did kawai sell those pianos as a “ beta “ version ?
No.
Did kawai send those pianos for free ?
No.
For around 9000 euros/ dollars, you expect ( and whatever the price for a given product, though) to buy a piano that is satifaying from the very beginning.
The vouchers that pay those guys do not mention you need to wait for the first, second, third update before being satisfied.
No, kawai ( and dealers) took the money, so, It has to work from the very first day,

Period.

Unfortunately, I agree with you, the advise would be:
Never buy a product ( even a Japanese one... ) just after it has been released...
Same for cars, etc...

Last edited by rolex67; 11/03/18 02:59 AM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gérard] #2777691
11/03/18 04:29 AM
11/03/18 04:29 AM
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Tyr Offline
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Originally Posted by Gérard
The sound is subtle, the video is to listen with a headset or with good monitors, the buzz looks like a sheet of paper or aluminum that would be placed on the speaker.

https://youtu.be/m4QkOn0GXbE

After that I do not want to argue and I'm sure Kawai is working hard to find a solution and that the Novus will eventually have the success it deserves.


I have to double check this with mine. Sounds like some isolation strip or cable that is vibrating at some frequencies.


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyr] #2777726
11/03/18 07:56 AM
11/03/18 07:56 AM
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Tyr Offline
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On my novus, there is also this distortion sound on 3 of 4 speakers but you barely hear it when sitting in front of they keys. It's noticable when i get closer to the speakers.


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: rolex67] #2777734
11/03/18 08:26 AM
11/03/18 08:26 AM
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DiarmuidD Offline
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Originally Posted by rolex67

Never buy a product ( even a Japanese one... ) just after it has been released...
Same for cars, etc...


Very true and a rule I have lived by for a long time.

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