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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735199
05/08/18 08:23 PM
05/08/18 08:23 PM
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Thanks newer player for the additional suggestions. I've actually tried all combinations of laptop and NV10 on phase A and phase B outlets, when trying to resolve the ground loop, no dice.

To be clear, the noise isn't what I would have considered out of the ordinary. I'm not a hi-fi guy but I've always heard a tiny bit of extra white noise in speakers/earphones when connecting a new live source, it just seems fairly natural/common.The difference here is the NV10 by itself is completely silent while on, so it's hard not to notice the difference.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735225
05/09/18 01:31 AM
05/09/18 01:31 AM
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Just a quick question - if you unplug the midi and leave only the line in connected (maybe with the laptop on battery power) do you still have the noise?
And if you connect a phone or iPod tk the line in is there any noise?
This would be the best way to diagnose a loop or interference.
If you still do, than the noise is from the piano itself.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: mcoll] #2735275
05/09/18 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mcoll
Just a quick question - if you unplug the midi and leave only the line in connected (maybe with the laptop on battery power) do you still have the noise?
And if you connect a phone or iPod tk the line in is there any noise?
This would be the best way to diagnose a loop or interference.
If you still do, than the noise is from the piano itself.


Mcoll and newer,

Your collective persistence has pushed me to resolve this issue (as far as I really care to)!

I bypassed the 3.5mm jack from the laptop and dug out a USB-C to 3.5mm adapter. Using this, I get zero noise floor from either a USB-C Android phone or the MBP.

To be clear, I never suspected the noise floor to have anything to do with the NV-10, I just assumed that it behaved the same as any input accepting a signal from a dirty source. And this confirms it. Whatever it is, an Apple MBP will send a dirty signal over the 3.5mm connection, and this can be rectified by a cleaner DAC pathway (in my case, a USB-C to 3.5mm converter).

I still won't be running my VST through the NV10 speakers since the NV10 makes it too much hassle to be worth dealing with, but it's good to know it's an option in case I change my mind.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2735298
05/09/18 10:41 AM
05/09/18 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

I still won't be running my VST through the NV10 speakers since the NV10 makes it too much hassle to be worth dealing with, but it's good to know it's an option in case I change my mind.


So is the VST sounds good now using the NV10 as a MIDI controller and going back into the NV10 via USB-C/3.5mm?

What makes this a hassle? Sounds like a fairly standard MIDI setup.

The knock on using the AGs this way is that the sound system doesn't work well with line-in input of an external audio device source. I think it's something to do with the a stereo input going to multiple amplifiers, but I'm not sure (it would be great to get clarification from Philip Johnston on this). If the NV10 internal sound system used with MIDI->VST->AudioDevice->NV10LineIn sounds comparable to what you'd get with MIDI->VST->AudioDevice->StudioMonitors then it's a major plus in my view.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735299
05/09/18 10:47 AM
05/09/18 10:47 AM
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I just asked out of curiosity, because the piano as the source of noise wasn't eliminated. But that was cleared up. Probably using midi-to-usb cables would also clear the noise problem (but I'm not 100% certain), in case you'll ever want to use that setup. Cheers!

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: jfl] #2735306
05/09/18 11:07 AM
05/09/18 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jfl
So is the VST sounds good now using the NV10 as a MIDI controller and going back into the NV10 via USB-C/3.5mm?


Yep, I think a huge issue has been solved with this (though I wonder how many here running MPBs also have a USB-C to 3.5mm adapter PLUS and iDefender 3.0 to effectuate full noise fix).

Originally Posted by jfl
What makes this a hassle? Sounds like a fairly standard MIDI setup.


I described this a few times before, it's mainly a specific use case I need:

I want a one-touch method to switch between speakers and headphones, without plugging/unplugging phones, since I have a young daughter who likes to bang on the keys but isn't yet going to deal with the intricacies of powering-on -> sound mode/Favorite->Settings->LC on/off->Volume->physical headphone jack pulled and dropped to the floor.

I haven't found a way to enable the speakers when the headphones are plugged in, meaning she has to unplug and drop them if she wants to hear the sound through speakers. When running the sound straight through the VST via laptop, I bypass the entire line-in/USB-C converter/physical plug issue and everything works fine without additional noise. And the SK-EX Rendering is more than good enough to run through the speakers when I/she needs it.

I know it sounds a bit trivial, but this is a big deal to me in order to allow me to practice silently and at the same time lower the barrier to my kids starting to experience the instrument.

If Kawai created a setting allowing the headphones to be active at the same time as the speakers, I can probably figure out a Favorites profile that works, but for now it's just extra steps/work for zero gain from what I have today.

Originally Posted by jfl
The knock on using the AGs this way is that the sound system doesn't work well with line-in input of an external audio device source. I think it's something to do with the a stereo input going to multiple amplifiers, but I'm not sure (it would be great to get clarification from Philip Johnston on this). If the NV10 internal sound system used with MIDI->VST->AudioDevice->NV10LineIn sounds comparable to what you'd get with MIDI->VST->AudioDevice->StudioMonitors then it's a major plus in my view.


I can't really speak to this exact point. Given the AG N3X has true multi-channel speaker output, I can see how there is an audible discrepancy with standard stereo line-in. I haven't heard that the NV10 actually has multi-channel output (I know the sound engine takes in multi-channel sampling input) and I don't know if it has the same limitation (it sounds fine to me, but I don't often use the on-board speakers so I'm not the best to speak on the matter). I do agree that the potential for a noise-less line-in is a huge positive (though if it's possible with the NV10, I have to assume it's also possible with an N3X).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2735334
05/09/18 01:21 PM
05/09/18 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Mcoll and newer,

Your collective persistence has pushed me to resolve this issue (as far as I really care to)!

I bypassed the 3.5mm jack from the laptop and dug out a USB-C to 3.5mm adapter. Using this, I get zero noise floor from either a USB-C Android phone or the MBP.


Great - glad you sorted this out.

Oddball audio noises can be rather difficult to solve. I assume only some computers and phones will demonstrate the issues you encountered.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735352
05/09/18 02:36 PM
05/09/18 02:36 PM
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Hello:
This is my first message on the forum. I would like to congratulate this community and all those who have participated in this thread, for providing invaluable information.
I have an important doubt, I hope to resolve it shortly, but I would like to ask for advice.
I am thinking about buying a Yamaha AG N3 used in pristine condition (9,000€ / 7,850 pounds), or a new Kawai NV10.
I am a professional pianist, I dedicate myself to classical music. I have a Kawai KG2E at home, I would use it as a second instrument, and especially so as not to disturb the neighborhood. I know well the AG and I love it. I´ll test the NV10 next week in Madrid. I know that at a technological level, the N3 has no comparison with the Novus (many years of development and progress ...), although I am not clear that I will take advantage of the possibilities of the second… Just the basic ones… (not MIDI or other connections, just to play with piano mode, metronome, headphones, maybe reverb... etc...)
Maybe you can help me.
Thanks and regards.

Last edited by mbernardofdz; 05/09/18 02:39 PM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735355
05/09/18 02:51 PM
05/09/18 02:51 PM
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I have a question regarding the "touch" on the NV10 for you guys that understand such things. When you adjust the touch from normal to heavy or to light with other DP's I assumed that it is really only changing the volume. Is that true on the NV10 also? Because I think I can feel the difference.

Last edited by TomLC; 05/09/18 02:55 PM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735367
05/09/18 03:46 PM
05/09/18 03:46 PM
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Tom, are you asking if changing the Touch setting actually changes the physical resistance of the keys to be heavier or lighter?

If so, then no, that's not happening, not even in a top level DP like the NV10.

If you think you can feel a difference, then that's purely in your head. smile

That even happens to people who play acoustic pianos. Someone who usually plays on a piano with hard hammers that give a brilliant tone, who then switches to a piano with soft hammers, can have the impression that the second piano's keys are heavier, because he now has to play with much more force to get a similar brilliant tone as he is used to from his hard hammer piano, where this tone is achieved easily with light playing. And vice versa.

Last edited by JoBert; 05/09/18 04:17 PM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: mbernardofdz] #2735373
05/09/18 04:15 PM
05/09/18 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mbernardofdz
I know well the AG and I love it. I´ll test the NV10 next week in Madrid. I know that at a technological level, the N3 has no comparison with the Novus (many years of development and progress ...), although I am not clear that I will take advantage of the possibilities of the second… Just the basic ones… (not MIDI or other connections, just to play with piano mode, metronome, headphones, maybe reverb... etc...)

You write this as if the 10 years technological improvement went only into stuff like MIDI, or other "bells and whistles" that you won't need if you simply want to "play the piano". That is not so. One of the main things that was improved during those years is the sound engine, i.e. one of the most important features of a digital piano. And *that* makes a big difference even, or maybe especially, when "just playing".

So, the fact that the Novus is newer *can* make a difference even if you disregard non-important technology advances, if it turns out that you like the newer sound engine of the Novus better.

But actually I would advise to ignore the relative age and focus on one aspect only: Which one gives you more fun and satisfaction when playing?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735374
05/09/18 04:15 PM
05/09/18 04:15 PM
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Jumping into this thread again because I am tired of waiting for the N2X (which doesn't seem to be coming any time soon), and I found a dealer near me with a couple of NV10s, and they're on "sale" for $10,900 until the end of the month.

Going to go practice on one for a couple hours tomorrow. If I like it as much as I hope I do, I will soon be the proud owner of one of these. Going to be trading in a 585.

It's the more realistic action I'm excited about. I love the N2 and N3 action, so hope I find this somewhat comparable.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735386
05/09/18 05:06 PM
05/09/18 05:06 PM
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"If you think you can feel a difference, then that's purely in your head."

That's what I thought.
confused


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735395
05/09/18 06:47 PM
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Just posted by Kawai. https://youtu.be/hOfj8wIjszs


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735401
05/09/18 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert

But actually I would advise to ignore the relative age and focus on one aspect only: Which one gives you more fun and satisfaction when playing?


I would definitely second this. Between an N3 and an NV10, I could definitely see people going either way. The NV10 has a vastly better UI and a more up to date sound engine with all the latest tech (e.g., 88-string modeled resonance), but I believe the N3 still has a significant advantage in amplification, TRS and also custom multisampled output (it's not just stereo, each of the four main speakers is outputting the perspective of its own microphone sampled from the same position on a grand).

They're both premium top-of-class hybrids with real acoustic actions, so you really need to try and decide which one "speaks" to you more when you play.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735443
05/10/18 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by rach3master
Can you max out the Novus' MIDI input at 127? For the Avantgrand N1, you can only top out at around 100, even if you do a "fist" fortissimo.

I think I remember seeing 120 or so with "normal touch" when experimenting with a MIDI monitor. But it has been a while, so I'm not 100% sure. And that certainly was more a "banging" than "playing". smile

I was curious if I remembered this correctly, so I fired up MIDI Scope to measure once more:

At touch setting Normal, when banging a single key hard, ~115 is relatively easy to get. With some devotion you may get up to 120. When actually "normally" playing a ff chord (i.e. controlled but as "loud as possible") the MIDI velocities of the chord notes are ~100.

At touch setting Light, ~120 is relatively easy for a single note, 125/126 is possible with devotion, 127 is difficult but I managed at least once. An actual ff chord ends up around 110 or so.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735482
05/10/18 08:21 AM
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The sustain pedal is still annoying me. I'd opened the panel six times now to fix the creaking sound. It lasts for 1 - 2 days until it starts again. confused


Yamaha NU1X
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Jaytee-66] #2735486
05/10/18 08:32 AM
05/10/18 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Jaytee-66

Going to go practice on one for a couple hours tomorrow.


Jaytee, Let us know what you decide.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyr] #2735487
05/10/18 08:34 AM
05/10/18 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyr
The sustain pedal is still annoying me. I'd opened the panel six times now to fix the creaking sound. It lasts for 1 - 2 days until it starts again. confused


Vaseline....... cursing


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Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: TomLC] #2735501
05/10/18 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by TomLC
Originally Posted by Tyr
The sustain pedal is still annoying me. I'd opened the panel six times now to fix the creaking sound. It lasts for 1 - 2 days until it starts again. confused


Vaseline....... cursing


Tyr, you might want to check with the good folks in the Piano Technician's forum here, they always have great ideas (and know the "right" answer) for dealing with these issues on acoustic actions.

As to vaseline, the felt and pedal rod aren't exactly sensitive moving parts, and I'm not going to say here that dabbing a q-tip sprayed with Aerokroil on the rod right where it rubs against the felt sleeve has banished all squeaks wink That's the kind of fix that may be looked down on in the PTF as ill-conceived and temporary.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
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