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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735054
05/08/18 09:26 AM
05/08/18 09:26 AM
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Thanks, the first and the last seem to be iPad only, but the DRC synth is available for the iPhone. I'll see if I can get it to work...

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: arc7urus] #2735056
05/08/18 09:32 AM
05/08/18 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus

BT MIDI has *much* lower latency than BT Audio. The current BT Audio profile cannot be used at all for real-time playing. So, you should give BT MIDI a try as you will likely find no difference to a cabled MIDI connection. I also have a ground looping problem with my laptop (but not with my desktop). So, BT MIDI is an easy solution.


It was a good experiment to run, but in the end, a no-go. BT MIDI for me had *appreciably* more latency than USB-MIDI, I'd guesstimate about 10-20ms more. It's nowhere near the 200-300ms of BT audio, but it's the difference between hearing the key bottom out on the felt and then hearing the note, versus simultaneous sounding of note and bottoming out.

I haven't tried anything to "optimize" the connection yet (not sure what I'd change) but it's not an improved experience OOTB.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735068
05/08/18 10:05 AM
05/08/18 10:05 AM
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Indeed, there's some slight noise in Garritan CFX, however its playability and especially sonic realism is so high it's totally worth it. BTW, when paired with traditionally "dark" headphones such as HD650, which is what I do, the noise is not that apparent, although still there, and the combination is extremely pleasant.

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/08/18 10:05 AM.

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Currently: Yamaha NU1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai (ES7, MP6, CA63), Roland (RD-700SX, FP-5), Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: CyberGene] #2735070
05/08/18 10:27 AM
05/08/18 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Indeed, there's some slight noise in Garritan CFX, however its playability and especially sonic realism is so high it's totally worth it. BTW, when paired with traditionally "dark" headphones such as HD650, which is what I do, the noise is not that apparent, although still there, and the combination is extremely pleasant.


In any case, the noise in Garritan CFX is only present in the signal of the sample (if I understood correctly) so it wouldn't be eliminated by the noise gate in the DP anyway. A noise gate is only any good (in the sense we're talking about here) for eliminating a constant low level noise (referred to above a a noise floor).

The problem with a noise gate and piano is, it will also truncate piano notes as they decrease in volume, so it would have to be set at a very very low threshold to be of much use.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735071
05/08/18 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
I've never tried Garritan CFX myself, but I remember reading posts here on the forum that talked about noise/hiss in Garritan, and how certain (high quality) headphones are therefore not a good fit for it, as they emphasize this noise.

I did hear some noise with Garritan CFX, but is when I plug the headphones to the piano and the piano to the audio interface. They are hardly heard when the headphones are connected directly to the audio interface. Then there are low noises which are emphased by the piano. I did get rid of them with a 16kHz low pass filter.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735075
05/08/18 10:48 AM
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I have been using high quality headphones with CFX from the beginning and have never noticed any noise. I first heard a VST noise floor through them while playing through the NV10 speakers, but then realized that it also exists through the headphones, I just haven't noticed before. Funny how that works.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2735080
05/08/18 11:01 AM
05/08/18 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I have been using high quality headphones with CFX from the beginning and have never noticed any noise. I first heard a VST noise floor through them while playing through the NV10 speakers, but then realized that it also exists through the headphones, I just haven't noticed before. Funny how that works.

Me neither, i use the CFX through Sennheiser HD650 headphones and have a dedicated internal RME soundcard+additional outputs...... no noise that i’m aware of.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2735081
05/08/18 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by arc7urus

BT MIDI has *much* lower latency than BT Audio. The current BT Audio profile cannot be used at all for real-time playing. So, you should give BT MIDI a try as you will likely find no difference to a cabled MIDI connection. I also have a ground looping problem with my laptop (but not with my desktop). So, BT MIDI is an easy solution.


It was a good experiment to run, but in the end, a no-go. BT MIDI for me had *appreciably* more latency than USB-MIDI, I'd guesstimate about 10-20ms more. It's nowhere near the 200-300ms of BT audio, but it's the difference between hearing the key bottom out on the felt and then hearing the note, versus simultaneous sounding of note and bottoming out.

I haven't tried anything to "optimize" the connection yet (not sure what I'd change) but it's not an improved experience OOTB.


Excellent guesstimate :-) The MIDI BT BLE latency reported in several tests (reddit, stackexchange, ...) varies between 10 and 20 ms on iOS/Mac and Windows 10. On Android it varies significantly as it depends on the device and OS version. And there is not much you can do. In Windows a specific driver for the BT hardware may optimize the connection, but with the current BT implementation you should not be expecting to go below 10-15 ms. The reported latency with MIDI over USB (cabled) is 3-6 ms. On top this you still have to add the software/VST latency but that will be there regardless of the type of connection.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735090
05/08/18 11:58 AM
05/08/18 11:58 AM
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See the Garritan CFX background noise Karvala measured in these nice charts:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ed-in-garritan-cfx-lite.html#Post2695381

I found the the "exaggerated background room sound" when playing notes vs. "dead silence" when not playing notes to be ever so slightly "jarring". The noise is really quite subtle and, to be frank, barely noticable with my studio monitors; I can slightly hear it with all my headphones & iems.

I looked into running a separate ambience soundtrack from a concert hall to compensate but getting that working is not so easy. Tapestra software is the right tool but a bit buggy, estimating thresholds is tough, using an ambience soundtrack from a different hall is problematic. Heck getting any hall ambience track is difficult. As a final step, could easily run the ambience tracks with variable "volumes" (e.g. increasing ambience when the piano plays softer or is off.)

In the final analysis, I suppose I am just hearing the background noise Karvala measured and was trying to mask that with a noisy ambience track. . .

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2735096
05/08/18 12:32 PM
05/08/18 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by gmaster


Correct me if I'm wrong, so this noise floor is related to the source, mostly to Garritan? And NV10 brings that noise floor directly to the speakers so you can hear it? If you play other VSTs or play something from a spotify or youtube, will you end up a different noise floor?


I'm far from an expert on this, but my understanding is that it could be several things.

1. The VST/recording could have its own noise floor. You'd only hear this when notes are actually sounding. And now that you mention it, I recall I did notice the Garritan noise floor when playing through speakers, whereas there is little/none from the built in sounds.

2. It could be a ground loop or other issue with the laptop source. I had a clear ground loop at first and bought an iDefender to get rid of that. But I still hear a slight speaker hum when a live signal is plugged into line-in and the volume raised a bit past minimum.

3. There's no hum with a dedicated digital input (BT audio).

Whatever the cause, it seems common enough for some pianos to use a noise gate to try to filter it out. So I don't know what the true cause is, but I could get rid of it, even after spending some $ to do so.

I also disliked that I had to plug and unplug the headphones in to physically switch from headphone to speaker output. IMO the onboard sounds are quite good through the speakers, enough for regular play when I need it. So my current setup let's me run the headphones all the time through the laptop and VST, and I can turn on the speakers with a single tap of the touchscreen whenever I need them.


I haven't read all the way through this, so apologies if you've already tried this, but an obvious test is to plug in the live source (e.g. a VST from a laptop), but then mute the live source on the laptop (with the laptop volume control) while leaving it plugged in. Does the noise go away or diminish? If so, then it's coming from the VST, if not, it's coming from the line-in circuit somewhere.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735097
05/08/18 12:37 PM
05/08/18 12:37 PM
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It's not the VST, the noise starts as soon as the line in is connected to both laptop and NV10, even if the VST software isn't running.

Turning down the line in volume makes the noise imperceptible, but then the VST output is too quiet through the speakers.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735102
05/08/18 12:57 PM
05/08/18 12:57 PM
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1. What if you unplug the laptop?

2. Or change from:

MIDI USB cable from NV10 >> laptop

And try:

MIDI TRADITIONAL cable from NV10>>[interface or cheap USB converter] >> laptop

3. You might also try maximizing gain from laptop (e.g. move "volume" sliders up to max in the VI screen)

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735110
05/08/18 01:45 PM
05/08/18 01:45 PM
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What about noise gate pedals, that guitar players use? Something like this:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/search.php?s=noise+gate+pedal

Can they be used in Novus?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: newer player] #2735125
05/08/18 02:35 PM
05/08/18 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by newer player
1. What if you unplug the laptop?


That's the first thing I tried when I noticed the ground loop noise. Running the laptop off batteries made no difference to either ground loop or to ambient "noise floor" when plugging in line-in.

Originally Posted by newer player

2. Or change from:

MIDI USB cable from NV10 >> laptop

And try:

MIDI TRADITIONAL cable from NV10>>[interface or cheap USB converter] >> laptop


I don't have 5-pin MIDI cables or midi-to-usb to test with, but that would have been my next step. The noise was reduced significantly with an iDefender 3 in the USB line, but it's still louder than zero. Ever walk into your home and just know what equipment has been left on based solely on the hum? That's what it was like, versus being virtually silent if it's just the NV10 alone.

Originally Posted by newer player
3. You might also try maximizing gain from laptop (e.g. move "volume" sliders up to max in the VI screen)


The NV10 has a master volume knob, line-in volume knob, line-in software gain slider, and a speaker volume toggle. The laptop has its own master volume slider in addition to the VST EQ/gain controls. I've tried various combinations of everything, and somethings do help (the higher the total volume is set, the louder the noise floor), but I couldn't completely eliminate it and still have regular listening volume (or an acceptable mix between VST volume and built-in-sound volume).

In the end, it just wasn't worth playing around with anymore, mainly because I didn't need the VST piped through the speakers (the built in sounds are great) and it's actually less convenient to play the VST through the DP. It would be nice to resolve just to know what the problem was, but I don't think I'd run it that way regularly.



Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735139
05/08/18 03:39 PM
05/08/18 03:39 PM
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I did a search on lamp and was surprised to find no hits! So my temporary NV10 arrived yesterday. The store I bought it from loaned to me the floor model because they are unable to get a firm date from Kawai as to when the one I ordered will arrive.

Again, the touch on this thing is a thing of beauty. Messed around with the sounds a bit to fine tune a piano sound I like, found that most of them had a built in reverb which I why I found them to be a bit mushy, but at least now I know where to look within the menu system.

The thing that I wasnt prepared for is that my piano lamp that has sat on top of my former uprights for 25 years doesnt work for the NV10. The music stand is too tall for it. And ambient light in our living room is terrible. What model lamp are people using for the NV10?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735143
05/08/18 04:12 PM
05/08/18 04:12 PM
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I bought and installed a new lamp that hangs off the ceiling. You can see it here (images 6 and 7):

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2711677.html

Oh - and a Novus on loan? Sweet! Nice move from your dealer.

Last edited by JoBert; 05/08/18 04:13 PM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735144
05/08/18 04:18 PM
05/08/18 04:18 PM
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Can you max out the Novus' MIDI input at 127? For the Avantgrand N1, you can only top out at around 100, even if you do a "fist" fortissimo.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: rach3master] #2735148
05/08/18 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rach3master
Can you max out the Novus' MIDI input at 127? For the Avantgrand N1, you can only top out at around 100, even if you do a "fist" fortissimo.


I think that's normal. I've seen about 105 - 110 with a really forceful fff strike. Most other DPs are like that as well, from prior discussions on the same topic.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735150
05/08/18 04:31 PM
05/08/18 04:31 PM
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I think I remember seeing 120 or so with "normal touch" when experimenting with a MIDI monitor. But it has been a while, so I'm not 100% sure. And that certainly was more a "banging" than "playing". smile

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2735181
05/08/18 06:39 PM
05/08/18 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
In the end, it just wasn't worth playing around with anymore, mainly because I didn't need the VST piped through the speakers (the built in sounds are great) and it's actually less convenient to play the VST through the DP. It would be nice to resolve just to know what the problem was, but I don't think I'd run it that way regularly.


Another few easy things to try:

1. Global reset of the piano. Then unplug overnight.

2. I see you are in the US. Home electrics typically run two legs. Oddly one leg might run quieter. So the power outlet next to your piano runs off one of the legs (say left leg). Try to run off the other leg (say right leg). Use a long extension cord to plug into an outlet in another room, say your kitchen.

Normally you can figure this out by looking at your electrics panel. You don't touch anything inside the panel and make sure to close the door when done. Look at the side your piano is currently connected to (say piano room breaker is on left side of panel). Then find an outlet connected to the other side of the panel (say all your kitchen outlets are on the right side). Then connect your extension cord to a kitchen outlet and to your piano. Don't trip.

I don't think people fully understand why one leg might be quieter than the other but it is so easy to check it is worth a try. A relavitve worked with complex electrics and said that is sometimes just the way it is. . .

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