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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: jfl] #2734652
05/06/18 06:29 PM
05/06/18 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jfl


So is it worth $4K more than what I can purchase an N2 for? (BTW- I can purchase an N3 for $12K, but don't want that footprint.) Probably not for me, though I'm very willing to pay $12K or even more if it's the 'right one'.



This is, of course, up to you and how much loot you have available. I really like the NV10. However, in my humble opinion, it is not worth 50% more than a N2. He is trying to charge you "full boat" for the NV10 as they are a little scarce now. This is especially pertinent if you are going to use VST's you already own. The primary sound of the AG is pretty nice as is for a primary instrument sound.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2734680
05/06/18 08:05 PM
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jfl- your information about acoustic pianos in this thread is incorrect. US market Bostons are assembled in Kawai factories Japan, with the exception of the least expensive model which comes out of their factory in Indonesia. Steinway does not offer a composite action option.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2734688
05/06/18 09:02 PM
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Terminaldegree- Thank you. I stand (sit) corrected:

https://www.pianobuyer.com/Resources/Piano-Brands-Profiles/Detail/ArticleId/55/Brand/BOSTON

The 'Steinway & Sons' Boston Piano is in fact made by Kawai. Perhaps this explains the similarity I felt to the NV10 action. I had actually been told they were made in China by a Yamaha dealer I was in contact with about AvantGrands.

The statement on Steinway offering a composite action was from the Kawai dealer where I tried the NV10 last weekend.

I'm starting to get the feeling I'd better fact check anything these dealers tell me - certainly before quoting them.This forum is obviously a better place for reliable information about pianos.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2734738
05/07/18 02:53 AM
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Hello everyone, two questions to NV10 users. I appreciate your thoughts.

1) Has any of the NV users tested VSTs? If so how is the performance? Also anyone tried to direct any VSTs to NV10's own speaker system? How was the results if so? Do you believe additional standalone speakers needed if I intend to use VSTs with Novus?

2) For the users which switched from Kawai Grand Feel actions to NV10, what were the main differences you observed when you switched? Do you think Kawai Grand Feel actions are still good imitations of real acustic grands or NV10 is a totaly in a different league in terms of feeling?

I am personally thinking of investing in a new digital piano, I will be using it with VSTs only, hence I am not interested in built in sounds. If you advise me on buying NV10, I will be required to save almost up to 1 year to buy it. Or I can quickly buy a CS8 with Grand Feel 2 action. I would like to know if NV10 action feels so different compared to GF2. I am a beginner with around 3 years of experience, currently own a Casio PX-750 and when I compare with real acustics (I had a chance to play on a Steinway-D and a Blüthner yesterday), I feel actions are vastly different and requires time to get used to the real thing. And I feel Casio action is already started to limit my progress in some pieces.

Thanks for any ideas!

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: gmaster] #2734779
05/07/18 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by gmaster
Hello everyone, two questions to NV10 users. I appreciate your thoughts.

1) Has any of the NV users tested VSTs? If so how is the performance? Also anyone tried to direct any VSTs to NV10's own speaker system? How was the results if so? Do you believe additional standalone speakers needed if I intend to use VSTs with Novus?



+ one

I've read that using AvantGrands as MIDI controllers can be problematic when feeding the PC audio device output back into the DP's line in to use the internal amp/speakers. Something to do with the sound system not being stereo? Great to hear any NV10 user experiences with this.(And if any AG owners want to dispute this based on personal experience, interested in their input as well)

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2734797
05/07/18 10:10 AM
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@jfl

Originally Posted by Philip_Johnston
*****"How does the Garritan CFX sound (fidelity wise) over the on-board speakers?"

Not great. Those speakers really seem to be designed for the Avant Grand's own inbuilt sample library (which is vastly inferior to the Garritan). You can't see them in the shot, but I'm using stage monitor speakers to listen to the CFX samples.

There's no substitute though for headphones - the only reason I don't use them is because they look odd in videos, and visually destroy the illusion of an acoustic piano recording. I may yet end up working with them though for future videos.


http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...is-this-now-real-enough.html#Post2364696

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: gmaster] #2734830
05/07/18 12:32 PM
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Hi gmaster! A few answers to your questions:

Originally Posted by gmaster

1) Has any of the NV users tested VSTs? If so how is the performance? Also anyone tried to direct any VSTs to NV10's own speaker system? How was the results if so? Do you believe additional standalone speakers needed if I intend to use VSTs with Novus?


I almost exclusively use my NV10 with Garritan CFX, with headphones. It's just as playable as with my MP11 (which is to say, superb). I did have the VST hooked up to the NV10 speakers for a bit, but didn't like it much. Mainly, there's a higher noise floor if a signal is piped into Line-In, and you can hear that when compared to the utter silence when using the built-in sounds. I don't think there's much that can be done about that, and I don't know if standalone speakers would be any better. TBH, I don't know if this is the "same" complaint others have voiced about running VSTs through the AvantGrands. Because IMO, regular output like streaming BT audio sounds just great through the NV10. I think it's just hard to compare to whatever optimized amplification and samples are used in a purpose-built package.

The NV10 speakers can get LOUD. Really loud. Much louder than the piano/instrument sounds go. If you use the BT audio or line in features, you can really crank it up.

Last note on this - the NV10 offers unprecedented control over the line-in signal. There's the master volume. There's a dedicated line-in volume knob. There's also a digital slider in the UI for line-in gain, so you can tweak the signal/volume as perfectly as possible to match it with the onboard volume. And there's no noise gate that I know of (hence the audible noise floor).

Originally Posted by gmaster
2) For the users which switched from Kawai Grand Feel actions to NV10, what were the main differences you observed when you switched? Do you think Kawai Grand Feel actions are still good imitations of real acustic grands or NV10 is a totaly in a different league in terms of feeling?


I also have an MP11. A real grand action is in another league, and feels completely different. Immediately I noticed that the NV-10 action is significantly heavier than GF, and keypresses bottom out harder. But when playing, the main difference is in dynamic key travel. The NV10 feels exactly like an acoustic grand because it IS an acoustic grand action. When playing trills, scales and arps the key response and bounceback are all much more authentic. Note that for me, this is mostly "feel"--the MP11 is the first DP I've owned that lets me use exactly the same technique on a digital as on an acoustic, so the response itself is extremely realistic, the only thing is I can still tell I'm playing on a DP keyboard (perhaps it's just a tad too buttery smooth?).

Originally Posted by gmaster
I am personally thinking of investing in a new digital piano, I will be using it with VSTs only, hence I am not interested in built in sounds. If you advise me on buying NV10, I will be required to save almost up to 1 year to buy it. Or I can quickly buy a CS8 with Grand Feel 2 action. I would like to know if NV10 action feels so different compared to GF2. I am a beginner with around 3 years of experience, currently own a Casio PX-750 and when I compare with real acustics (I had a chance to play on a Steinway-D and a Blüthner yesterday), I feel actions are vastly different and requires time to get used to the real thing. And I feel Casio action is already started to limit my progress in some pieces.

Thanks for any ideas!


I can't say whether the Casio is limiting your progress, but I will say that I regularly see people who are 10x better than me playing on digitals that are cheaper than your PX-750, so I'm a bit skeptical that you're running into technical limitations on your technique at 3-years in. Getting used to different keyboard/action feel is a fact of life for a pianist, and has nothing to do with digital v. acoustic. If you switch between the two regularly, you WILL eventually feel at home on both (though you might like one better than the other). I already had the pinnacle of digital actions, and moved up to the NV10 because I liked it better, not because I felt I was being held back by anything in the GF1. I still immensely enjoy the action on the MP11 and the GF2 digitals when I play them, they have such a great signature feel. The NV10 is just the real thing.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2734875
05/07/18 03:32 PM
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Gombessa!

Thanks that was a superb answer. So useful!

I hope noise gate problem is software related, or can be solved in later versions, so we VST folk can utilize these Onkyo speakers as well (@kawaijames).

Regarding the GF2 and real acoustic actions, my thoughts were exactly the same when I tried them. GF2 is a great action, very responsive, fast etc. But real acoustics have something else I can't describe. Also they felt heavier compared to GF2. So even if I can play very well in GF2, adapting to an acoustic may require additional time.

For Casio PX-750, I misrepresented myself, of course a lot can be done with PX-750, however I have started to notice its drawbacks compared to better actions (I wasn't able to 3 years ago). For example I figured its pivot length is quite short compared to GF2 and I can easily feel it when I play both of them. Also casio action is considerably lighter than what it needs to be. When I tried GF2, I felt somehow even the action was heavier, It was a lot easier and smoother compared to my Casio.

So my personal opinion is to currently focus on my technique and than maybe later switch directly to Novus

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2734881
05/07/18 03:53 PM
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What if the incoming VST is blended with the on-board sound, could that minimize (mask) the noise floor?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Pete14] #2734886
05/07/18 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
What if the incoming VST is blended with the on-board sound, could that minimize (mask) the noise floor?


I don't think so. The noise floor with the onboard sounds is zero. The noise floor as soon as a live signal to Line-In is plugged in, is non-zero. So I don't think there is a chance of zeroing out the "white noise" floor by using the onboard sounds, it's simply a matter of adding a noisier source to an optimized source.

Originally Posted by gmaster

I hope noise gate problem is software related, or can be solved in later versions, so we VST folk can utilize these Onkyo speakers as well (@kawaijames).


You may be misinterpreting my intent with the "noise gate" issue. With the AvantGrands, others have reported a "noise gate" which cuts off the signal to Line-In if the signal is too low. Among other things, this cuts off long decay/sustain notes that become too quiet to pass the noise gate filter, which is undesireable because certain sounds won't be rendered fully, or at all.

The NV10 doesn't have a noise gate at all (a good thing), so everything being sent to Line-In is passed to the on-board circuitry for processing and output. Generally that's great, but if there's a "noise floor" that is higher than you'll hear with the onboard sounds, you may hear it with the onboard speakers.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2734958
05/08/18 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Pete14
What if the incoming VST is blended with the on-board sound, could that minimize (mask) the noise floor?


I don't think so. The noise floor with the onboard sounds is zero. The noise floor as soon as a live signal to Line-In is plugged in, is non-zero. So I don't think there is a chance of zeroing out the "white noise" floor by using the onboard sounds, it's simply a matter of adding a noisier source to an optimized source.

Originally Posted by gmaster

I hope noise gate problem is software related, or can be solved in later versions, so we VST folk can utilize these Onkyo speakers as well (@kawaijames).


You may be misinterpreting my intent with the "noise gate" issue. With the AvantGrands, others have reported a "noise gate" which cuts off the signal to Line-In if the signal is too low. Among other things, this cuts off long decay/sustain notes that become too quiet to pass the noise gate filter, which is undesireable because certain sounds won't be rendered fully, or at all.

The NV10 doesn't have a noise gate at all (a good thing), so everything being sent to Line-In is passed to the on-board circuitry for processing and output. Generally that's great, but if there's a "noise floor" that is higher than you'll hear with the onboard sounds, you may hear it with the onboard speakers.


Correct me if I'm wrong, so this noise floor is related to the source, mostly to Garritan? And NV10 brings that noise floor directly to the speakers so you can hear it? If you play other VSTs or play something from a spotify or youtube, will you end up a different noise floor?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2735025
05/08/18 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by gmaster

The NV10 doesn't have a noise gate at all (a good thing), so everything being sent to Line-In is passed to the on-board circuitry for processing and output. Generally that's great, but if there's a "noise floor" that is higher than you'll hear with the onboard sounds, you may hear it with the onboard speakers.


From the N3X user guide (KJ: a possible future NV10 firmware upgrade?):

 Minimizing noise of the input sound via Noise Gate
By default, this instrument cuts unwanted noise from the input sound. However, this
may result in necessary sounds also being cut, such as the soft decay sound of a piano
or guitar. To avoid this, set the Noise Gate to off via the following operation.
While holding down [FUNCTION], press the C#6 key repeatedly to toggle Noise
Gate on and off as needed.

JFL note: of course, it would be much better to have variable control. I have a noise gate pedal on my guitar pedal board which is at the end of the signal chain and allows the low cutoff to be set at a point where a long decay isn't chopped off prematurely but is still effective. I hope some day that Kawai and Yamaha develop good solutions for integrating VST software into their hybrids using MIDI out/line in. It would only improve sales.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: gmaster] #2735029
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Originally Posted by gmaster

Correct me if I'm wrong, so this noise floor is related to the source, mostly to Garritan? And NV10 brings that noise floor directly to the speakers so you can hear it? If you play other VSTs or play something from a spotify or youtube, will you end up a different noise floor?


I was going to ask the same question... I have a CA98 and I have used the line-in input to connect to an iPad and Android tablet running synths/samplers and also to a laptop running PianoTeq and some other software. In all these cases, I experience no "noise floor" via speakers or headphones with the line-in volume set to maximum. I do get some noise with specific instruments/sounds in some apps, but that is entirely related to the quality of the audio sources, not to the line-in connection at all.

I would say that the white noise that is being experienced when connecting to VSTs running on a computer is likely due to USB ground looping. Do you have such noise as well if you connect the DP to the computer via Bluetooth MIDI and then use a cable for the audio in/out? With a single audio cable running between the DP and the computer there should be no ground loop and the line input should be noise free, unless Garritan introduces such noise.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: gmaster] #2735032
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Originally Posted by gmaster


Correct me if I'm wrong, so this noise floor is related to the source, mostly to Garritan? And NV10 brings that noise floor directly to the speakers so you can hear it? If you play other VSTs or play something from a spotify or youtube, will you end up a different noise floor?


I'm far from an expert on this, but my understanding is that it could be several things.

1. The VST/recording could have its own noise floor. You'd only hear this when notes are actually sounding. And now that you mention it, I recall I did notice the Garritan noise floor when playing through speakers, whereas there is little/none from the built in sounds.

2. It could be a ground loop or other issue with the laptop source. I had a clear ground loop at first and bought an iDefender to get rid of that. But I still hear a slight speaker hum when a live signal is plugged into line-in and the volume raised a bit past minimum.

3. There's no hum with a dedicated digital input (BT audio).

Whatever the cause, it seems common enough for some pianos to use a noise gate to try to filter it out. So I don't know what the true cause is, but I could get rid of it, even after spending some $ to do so.

I also disliked that I had to plug and unplug the headphones in to physically switch from headphone to speaker output. IMO the onboard sounds are quite good through the speakers, enough for regular play when I need it. So my current setup let's me run the headphones all the time through the laptop and VST, and I can turn on the speakers with a single tap of the touchscreen whenever I need them.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: arc7urus] #2735034
05/08/18 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Do you have such noise as well if you connect the DP to the computer via Bluetooth MIDI and then use a cable for the audio in/out? With a single audio cable running between the DP and the computer there should be no ground loop and the line input should be noise free, unless Garritan introduces such noise.


You know, I never bothered trying BT MIDI, I should give that a shot. If anything it would let me get rid of a cable. I understand BLE is lower latency than BT Audio, but it's it generally consider acceptable for real time play?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: jfl] #2735035
05/08/18 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jfl

JFL note: of course, it would be much better to have variable control. I have a noise gate pedal on my guitar pedal board which is at the end of the signal chain and allows the low cutoff to be set at a point where a long decay isn't chopped off prematurely but is still effective. I hope some day that Kawai and Yamaha develop good solutions for integrating VST software into their hybrids using MIDI out/line in. It would only improve sales.


But why should a VST introduce such noise? Is noise expected from a VST such as Garritan? In some other thread here there is an ongoing discussion about a new acoustic piano from VSL with several audio samples generated by that that VST. There is no noticeable white noise at all on those VST digital audio renderings. So, if there is no noise on the VST but there is noise when connecting the computer running the VST to the DP using an analogue audio in/out connection, then the computer and/or the DP have sub-par audio hardware. In such case, using a "noise gate" is never going to correct the actual problem.

Anyway, what current DPs should have is digital in/out USB audio connections..

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2735036
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by arc7urus
Do you have such noise as well if you connect the DP to the computer via Bluetooth MIDI and then use a cable for the audio in/out? With a single audio cable running between the DP and the computer there should be no ground loop and the line input should be noise free, unless Garritan introduces such noise.


You know, I never bothered trying BT MIDI, I should give that a shot. If anything it would let me get rid of a cable. I understand BLE is lower latency than BT Audio, but it's it generally consider acceptable for real time play?


BT MIDI has *much* lower latency than BT Audio. The current BT Audio profile cannot be used at all for real-time playing. So, you should give BT MIDI a try as you will likely find no difference to a cabled MIDI connection. I also have a ground looping problem with my laptop (but not with my desktop). So, BT MIDI is an easy solution.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735038
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I've never tried Garritan CFX myself, but I remember reading posts here on the forum that talked about noise/hiss in Garritan, and how certain (high quality) headphones are therefore not a good fit for it, as they emphasize this noise.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735040
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I would be willing to test a VST, but my old netbook is way too slow and the desktop PC is in a different room (on a different floor, even).

Is there a piano VST app for iPhone that has a free test mode?

(I only found ones that are not free, but I don't want to shell out real money for such a test, as I'm not really interested in using that VST for real playing. The Colossus Piano app is free but you have to buy the pianos as in-app purchases.)

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2735043
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Originally Posted by JoBert
I would be willing to test a VST, but my old netbook is way too slow and the desktop PC is in a different room (on a different floor, even).

Is there a piano VST app for iPhone that has a free test mode?

(I only found ones that are not free, but I don't want to shell out real money for such a test, as I'm not really interested in using that VST for real playing. The Colossus Piano app is free but you have to buy the pianos as in-app purchases.)



All acoustic pianos I tried for the iOS were very low quality. Anyway, these are *not* acoustic piano VSTs but will enable you to test BT MIDI connectivity and the line-in input on the NV10. Try these for iOS:
- FM Player (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/fm-player-classic-dx-synths/id1307785646?mt=8)
- DRC (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/drc-polyphonic-synthesizer/id973055710?mt=8)
- iTuttle (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ituttle/id707128902?mt=8)


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Young Chang Piano - How do you think the tune is?
by AntOnYou8. 02/18/19 08:36 AM
What key is this piece in?
by maire. 02/17/19 06:53 PM
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