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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2749707
07/06/18 08:43 AM
07/06/18 08:43 AM
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Welcome to the club, opus64!

The odd resonance that you describe seems similar to a phenomenon that I've experience too, but in my case localized to the E5 an Eb5. It also seems to be similar to the buzzing that UKchap75 (I think it was?) described way earlier in the thread.

Based on his idea, I was able to tame this for my piano (down to levels where I don't hear it anymore) via "Tone Control" in the "Sound Settings" menu, with the "User" choice. I've set mine to -1 for Mid-high and -2 for High. I think UKchap75 has even more aggressive settings (more into the negative range).

Maybe this helps in your case too?

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2749716
07/06/18 09:23 AM
07/06/18 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Welcome to the club, opus64!

Based on his idea, I was able to tame this for my piano (down to levels where I don't hear it anymore) via "Tone Control" in the "Sound Settings" menu, with the "User" choice. I've set mine to -1 for Mid-high and -2 for High. I think UKchap75 has even more aggressive settings (more into the negative range).

Maybe this helps in your case too?


JoBert, I have a great deal of respect for the knowledge you provide on this forum. And try to implement them if possible. However, in this case, aren't you just lowering the volume of the Mid-high and High range? I typically try to bring out the higher range as that is where the melody normally resides. confused


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2749738
07/06/18 10:25 AM
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Thank you all for your replies. I have recorded a few sound samples. These were recorded on an iPhone with the Novus driving its internal speakers, and it accurately represents the character of what I hear, although it seems slightly worse in person.

Pianist Mode, just tapping G#3 Buzz

Pianist Mode Vintage Test

Sound Mode SKEX Test

On the first sample, I can hear the 'buzzing' sound randomly when the key is pressed. On the Pianist mode sample, it sounds as if the buzzing builds up to sound distorted. To me it sometimes makes it sound similar to the aliasing noise you get with 8-bit or 8khz sample rate sounds, although this is clearly not the case here, it just sometimes has that quality.

Finally I recorded a sample in Sound Mode, where it is still audible although not as noticeable as Pianist mode.

I am curious to know if, for instance, others hear the same buzzing when tapping G#3 at random velocities over the speakers. This will tell me if it is a general issue or something about my unit(or room acoustics).


Last edited by opus64; 07/06/18 10:28 AM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2749745
07/06/18 10:47 AM
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Tom, you are probably thinking of the key volume setting in the VT? There you can indeed control the volume of the keys individually (or in ranges). The Tone Control works more like an equalizer, as I understand it, enhancing, or like in my case, reducing certain frequencies in general and not specific to certain keys or keyboard ranges.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2749759
07/06/18 11:13 AM
07/06/18 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Tom, you are probably thinking of the key volume setting in the VT? There you can indeed control the volume of the keys individually (or in ranges). The Tone Control works more like an equalizer, as I understand it, enhancing, or like in my case, reducing certain frequencies in general and not specific to certain keys or keyboard ranges.


Yes, I know which control you mean. Thank you. So setting those frequencies to -1 or -2 will not reduce the volume in the range selected. Just the frequency. So as you said before, I think, I may be able to reduce the ringing I get with headphones. BTW, I am getting used to it. smile


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: opus64] #2749762
07/06/18 11:29 AM
07/06/18 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by opus64
Thank you all for your replies. I have recorded a few sound samples. These were recorded on an iPhone with the Novus driving its internal speakers, and it accurately represents the character of what I hear, although it seems slightly worse in person.

Pianist Mode, just tapping G#3 Buzz

Pianist Mode Vintage Test

Sound Mode SKEX Test

On the first sample, I can hear the 'buzzing' sound randomly when the key is pressed. On the Pianist mode sample, it sounds as if the buzzing builds up to sound distorted. To me it sometimes makes it sound similar to the aliasing noise you get with 8-bit or 8khz sample rate sounds, although this is clearly not the case here, it just sometimes has that quality.

Finally I recorded a sample in Sound Mode, where it is still audible although not as noticeable as Pianist mode.

I am curious to know if, for instance, others hear the same buzzing when tapping G#3 at random velocities over the speakers. This will tell me if it is a general issue or something about my unit(or room acoustics).





Opus64, Welcome to our (not so little) club. I listened to these samples with HD598 and HD600 headphones and I can't hear the buzzing you describe. Sorry.


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: TomLC] #2749772
07/06/18 12:13 PM
07/06/18 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by TomLC


Opus64, Welcome to our (not so little) club. I listened to these samples with HD598 and HD600 headphones and I can't hear the buzzing you describe. Sorry.


I don't hear anything out of the ordinary either. There is a slight resonance in the sample that is well within the normal range of a normal note on a well setup acoustic piano. I think you are probably specifically sensitive to a particular frequency within your own ears.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: ando] #2749775
07/06/18 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
I don't hear anything out of the ordinary either.


Thanks, wow this is pretty surprising. In the first sample I clearly hear some of the key presses have a very distinct 'bzzzt' over the notes, while other key presses do not have it.

If this 'bzzt' was produced by the original sampled acoustic piano, I don't think it should be part of the sample. The vibration should've been addressed before the sample was taken. Whatever is buzzing(some single part of the piano body, etc) was captured across multiple keys and velocities. When you play multiple keys, you are now simulating what numerous copies of that vibrating part would sound like unison(not a single part as in reality) and I think this is what I am hearing.


I could also be crazy, there's always that.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2749779
07/06/18 12:42 PM
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I can't hear it on my laptop speakers, but using my headphones and earbuds at high volume, it's clearly there. Only on the G#3 file though, I can't really make it out in the "Vintage" file. It kind of sounds like a loud cymbal or high hat buzz, and could be easily mistaken for high-volume distortion or noise introduced by the iphone mic. So no, you're not crazy wink

Opus, have you tried changing the various resonance character or depth settings to see if that has any effect on the buzzing?

I've occasionally heard similar minor, transient effects that I thought were part of the sample, but they go away after rebooting or changing between sound modes, so I'm kind of left wondering if Pianist mode rendering sometimes catches onto a weird parameter and causes these noises.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2749781
07/06/18 12:58 PM
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Gombessa: Exactly. (Glad i'm not crazy smile ) The thing is when playing multiple notes(i.e. any piece) that effect that sounds similar to high-volume distortion is very audible in person. It is not an artifact of the iPhone mic, that's how it really sounds. I have tried turning down the volume and it still sounds that way over speakers.

I have tried playing with every setting I could find. I did try the swipe up/down resonance adjustment, and it does not seem to significantly change it, which made me think it is part of the sample. As I mentioned it is present in only some notes and some velocities but no matter what I play I can hear it on some keys.

In the 'Pianist Vintage' sample I have to listen more closely, but I can clearly hear it on some parts and notes.

My NV10 is in a corner so one thing I tried was the WallEQ but that has no effect on this issue.

The only parameters that I have found that affect it are EQ parameters such as 'Brilliance' or user EQ, but of course that changes the rest of the sound as well.

The fact that I do not find it objectionable over headphones makes me think that the audio system/acoustics are just amplifying the effect of this component of the sample. I still think as I described above that this is likely a captured resonance of the original piano and is unfortunately not something you really want to sample in the first place.

I am thinking that maybe I should reseat the 2 connectors inside the instrument, because if others haven't objected to this then there might be an analog contact that is not fully settled somewhere causing a problem with the sound over speakers. It is also possible that the room is making it worse, it is a relatively small room and has hard floors/walls.

Last edited by opus64; 07/06/18 01:01 PM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2749788
07/06/18 01:35 PM
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Slightly ambiguous about hearing the sound in headphones. If it was a slab I would try it in another room. Alternatively, remove everything from walls, paintings, mirrors, objects, same with room ornaments, trimmings, eventually so only soft furnishings remaining. Could also try moving the piano to a different part of the room.

I had a console DP and got used to a noise, that I really couldn’t track down. Not present in headphones. It was only when I moved it to another room, in preparation for selling it and to make room for my new piano, that I was astounded that the noise had gone. The noise did occur with my new piano, it was a resonance with a clock on a wall.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2749795
07/06/18 02:03 PM
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Opus64, now that' I've had a chance to go back to my NV10 on speakers (not easy in a household with a 3 month old!), I know EXACTLY what you're talking about, and I've mentioned it before somewhere in this huge thread. To me, it sounds a bit like static/noise from the speakers and I remember thinking it would be so unfortunate if it were a manufacture or design defect with the Onkyo sound system. But then I saved a WAV/MP3 from Pianist mode and it shows up in the recorded file as well, which ruled out any issue with the amp/speakers or room resonance. Though again, once recorded it's hard to hear unless you have good speakers or headphones on your computer.

Another interesting note that I recall--it's a LOT easier to hear if your ear is directly over one of the four top speakers. That may sound obvious, but it doesn't get easier to hear if you just turn up the volume. At least for me, proximity to the speaker makes a big difference, and I can hear it even at very low volumes this way.

Everything else you said gives me a strong sense of deja vu as well. Very prominent while playing, hard to explain in a recorded file, not many people online being able to corroborate hearing it...I think it has a lot to do with how attuned we get to the sound and response of a piano while sitting down at the keys.

Anyways, sorry I don't have an actual solution for you. Again, I don't use the built-in sounds or speakers very often at all with the NV10 so even a major problem would escape my attention for days or weeks. But I do agree there's a bit of noise on some keys at some velocities in the tone generator, and it's easy to notice if you know what to listen to. FWIW I don't find it exceptionally objectable either.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2749812
07/06/18 03:30 PM
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Wow this is very helpful, thanks for going back and taking a look!

I also did a couple of tests:

First I reseated the connectors which didn't change anything.

Second I plugged in a pair of Mackie HR624mk2 monitors and disabled the on board speakers(by connecting headphones) and the issue is gone.

So I think this very clearly points to something about the on-board audio system. Clearly there is a 'buzz' component to the sampled sound that is present in only some of the samples, but the on board speaker system is somehow accentuating that part of the sound.

Like you said, it sounds very much like a 'static' like noise/distortion or tinny quality to the sound.

I sent a description to Kawai and they are looking at it.

The instrument is so phenomenal that in the scope of things it doesn't really bother me.

Now I have one remaining issue: squeak in the damper pedal. I think it is coming from where the rod meets the bushing at the bottom where the rod goes into the pedal assembly. Anyone else had/fixed this issue? I think some lubricant will fix it but I don't want to use the wrong kind, not sure what to use.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: opus64] #2749820
07/06/18 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by opus64

Now I have one remaining issue: squeak in the damper pedal. I think it is coming from where the rod meets the bushing at the bottom where the rod goes into the pedal assembly. Anyone else had/fixed this issue? I think some lubricant will fix it but I don't want to use the wrong kind, not sure what to use.


A couple of people have experienced this (including me). At least one mentioned the squeak is coming from the bottom by the pedals, and on mine it was at the top of the rod (which is IMO an easier fix).

At the top of the rod, there's more front-to-back movement as the rod travels up and down, and you can just tug the rod a bit so that it doesn't press against the felt sleeve/bushing in the direction that causes the squeak, which fixes the issue. However, the rod is a bit more pressure-fit at the bottom so I don't know if you can do the same thing. You can twirl the rod though, which may help. Some folks here have also discussed the merits and drawbacks of using a lubricant, like Kroil, graphite powder and WD-40, but for that it may be worth checking with the Tuners and Technicians forum, as this seems to be a pretty normal pedal regulation issue (though to be fair, exactly what harm is going to come from lubing up a metal rod or felt sleeve?).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2749836
07/06/18 05:27 PM
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I am seriously loving this action. For the first time ever on a digital I am tired! It is incredible how out of shape I have become relying mainly on a normal digital for practice. Not in terms of accuracy, but stamina. It is seriously remarkable to be able to "work" exactly as I did on an acoustic grand in the practice rooms on a digital piano in my office. Practicing on the NV10 as opposed to my digital has exposed some flaws in my technique that simply could not be practiced on the digital.

For all of it's flaws, this instrument is indispensable for the serious pianist who cannot regularly practice on an acoustic grand.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: computerpro3] #2750005
07/07/18 10:56 AM
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Computerpro3 (do you actually have a real name?) that is absolutely the point about playing the piano: the action. I must say that I am somewhat surprised about all the fellow forum members hearing some noises from.... If you play an acoustic upright or grand, there are all kinds of mechanical noises besides the music that you are playing, and so are there in the room were you play. This is different from listening to a hifi recording from lp, cd, etc., this is real life with all its background noises. I agree that disturbing buzzing, noise, rattling, etc., etc. should be eliminated if possibile, but if you have to press your ear against a speaker to maybe hear something remotely, than so what? Enjoy your play, this is up to now an unrivalled digital grand! Ralph

Last edited by RalphK; 07/07/18 10:57 AM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2750044
07/07/18 02:15 PM
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Thanks Gombessa for the info. Well, the squeak is fixed. I listened closely and my squeak sounded like it was coming from the bottom end, around the pedal assembly. I suspected that it was coming from where the damper pedal rod first goes into the pedal assembly, where it rubs against a bushing that can be seen from the top. I got some graphite powder from the hardware store, and put just a tiny amount where the rod touches the bushing, towards the front of the piano and the noise is gone. The pedal is now perfectly smooth. The feeling of 'creaking' the pedal while playing was almost as distracting as the squeak sound itself.

I have to agree with others, this is a truly inspiring instrument.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2750050
07/07/18 03:01 PM
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Nice that you have it fixed, opus64. If anyone else wants to try this: For such a small amount of graphite powder, there's no need to go to the hardware store. Just scrape it off from a pencil... smile

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2750164
07/08/18 04:05 AM
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@opus64: If the pedal creaking returns: Try turning the rod some degrees until the sound is gone. I had the same issue. My Kawai tech used silicone oil as lubrication but that doesn't helped much.


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2750167
07/08/18 04:19 AM
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Ok here is a random question. So my neighbor below me can hear the action through the floor. We tried a few things to prevent this but what seems to have worked is putting the Novus on top of some foam squares, the types that join together like a puzzle you often see for kids play areas.

Now what this means is that when pushed the novus wobbles a little bit. But is not affected while playing. Do you think this is going to affect it in a bad way?

Any advice or ideas?

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyr] #2750173
07/08/18 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyr
@opus64: If the pedal creaking returns: Try turning the rod some degrees until the sound is gone. I had the same issue. My Kawai tech used silicone oil as lubrication but that doesn't helped much.


Yes, applying lubrication and turning the rod some degrees should take care of it.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2750178
07/08/18 06:40 AM
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abarax, I don't know if it will help, but I would try the following:
Get three sheets of plywood. One larger one (just a few centimeters larger in each dimension than the footprint of the piano base plus pedal unit), two smaller ones that are just large enough for the two front legs. Then put the plywood between the foam and the piano. Alternatively just one large sheet that is large enough for the whole piano (possibly including the bench), with foam underneath and the piano on top.

Last edited by JoBert; 07/08/18 06:43 AM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2750194
07/08/18 08:16 AM
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As much surface area as those foam squares are, there are only 4 points of contact on the NV10 so I wonder if you can use standard padded piano caster cups instead on the full foam pads, at least on the front feet?

I wouldn't sweat a little wobble, especially if it is against the wall. We have tons of those foam pads and they compress a lot under that kind of point source weight so I don't think you'll be in tipping territory because of that (unless you're doubling or tripling the layers).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2750195
07/08/18 08:27 AM
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I am looking at the NV10 for my next piano purchase,currently using a VPC1 . I used to play Rolands but when using headphones my other half complained about the key thump and she was in the next room, since using my VPC1 it's never an issue with key noise .
So my only concern would be just how noisy the NV10 key action and pedal action whilst using headphones compared to the Rolands.


Kawai VPC1,True keys American,Ivory Grand pianos, Pianoteq 6.0 and Ravenscroft
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: daz100] #2750197
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Originally Posted by daz100
I am looking at the NV10 for my next piano purchase,currently using a VPC1 . I used to play Rolands but when using headphones my other half complained about the key thump and she was in the next room, since using my VPC1 it's never an issue with key noise .
So my only concern would be just how noisy the NV10 key action and pedal action whilst using headphones compared to the Rolands.


Here's the bad news. It's going to be louder than your typical DP, which is engineered for maximum silence (since headphone play is a huge use case). Kawai's wooden key DP actions like in your VPC1 are also simply the quietest you can find anywhere (so your bar is as high as you can get).

The NV10 uses a real piano action, which has its key noise naturally masked by the huge sound of a real piano. This action, compared to DPs, is not quiet. There's more noise in the multiple moving/striking parts of the action/keys, and the damping is not as strong as on a DP. So if your wife can hear your Roland, chances are the NV10 will be at least as loud, probably a bit more.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2750201
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....on that note, the new Rolands (using the PHA-50) are very quiet; as quiet if not more than the Kawais.
Roland got rid of the thump and added wooden sides to the white keys. You should give the new Rolands a try.
The Novus’ action will be very loud compared to the new Rolands.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2750213
07/08/18 10:13 AM
07/08/18 10:13 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,616
Germany
JoBert Offline OP
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JoBert  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,616
Germany
Can confirm: The NV10 action is definitely more noisy than the GFII. Source: My wife. smile

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2750216
07/08/18 10:31 AM
07/08/18 10:31 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,346
Sofia, Bulgaria
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CyberGene Offline
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CyberGene  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Sofia, Bulgaria
No way a real piano action is quieter than a digital piano action. If you try to dampen some of the mechanical elements of it, you will mess up the feeling and it would no longer qualify as a real piano action. NV10 and AG are about ultimate piano action realism, not about being quiet although they are much better than an acoustic grand in that respect. Even a loud thump is better than full blown grand piano awaking the neighborhood, right smile

Last edited by CyberGene; 07/08/18 10:33 AM.

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Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: CyberGene] #2750221
07/08/18 11:04 AM
07/08/18 11:04 AM
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Posts: 175
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daz100 Offline
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Ok it might not be a good idea having the novus after all .I would never be able to practice early morning and night time with such a noisey action which is totally no use to me having digital piano sound with a real piano action.

Money will be better spent on good upright and a slab type digital piano for night practice.


Kawai VPC1,True keys American,Ivory Grand pianos, Pianoteq 6.0 and Ravenscroft
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: daz100] #2750233
07/08/18 12:43 PM
07/08/18 12:43 PM
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Gombessa Offline
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Daz, there are ways to mitigate the action noise, but if this is a real concern, I agree you should approach any hybrid carefully (as they're obviously not cheap, but also not ready to move around to experiment with changes in setup).

Having a good upright for the daytime and a decent slab for night practice is a really good alternative.

Fwiw I play my NV10 almost exclusively early mornings (5-6am) while the household is sleeping. But I have it on the other side of the house from the bedrooms and only play with headphones.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
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