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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: arc7urus] #2732079
04/26/18 07:52 PM
04/26/18 07:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
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Southern California
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Originally Posted by arc_turus


The reverb and ambient settings (and EQ) are appilied before the sound is converted from a digital to an analogue signal. So, all analogue outputs (speakers, headphones and line out) share the same effects. If your room has indeed noticeable reverb you can try lowering the reverb level and check if the sound does not become too dry. Note that I find that most ambience/reverb options introduce artefacts into the sound when they are above 2/3 or so of the maximum. These artefacts are more noticeable with headphones
(especially with SHS on) than through speakers (note: I have a CA98, not a NV10). One example is the default Romantic character in pianist mode that uses an echo reverb that sounds artificial though headphones but not bad through the speakers. Lowering the ambiance level improves the sound. But you will have to spend some time trying different settings to adapt the sound to your liking...


Hah?? confused If the room has it's own natural acoustics, that cause reverb, why do we add reverb to the sound? I just want it to sound like a piano would sound in my room, although not as loud. Do we want "artefacts" or not?

Last edited by TomLC; 04/26/18 07:59 PM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: arc7urus] #2732091
04/26/18 08:34 PM
04/26/18 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by arc_turus
One example is the default Romantic character in pianist mode that uses an echo reverb that sounds artificial though headphones but not bad through the speakers. Lowering the ambiance level improves the sound. But you will have to spend some time trying different settings to adapt the sound to your liking...


IMO Romantic is the oddest bird in the cage. Through speakers, it sounds fine to my ears. Through headphones, it is literally a Leslie effect, with the sound rapidly alternating between left and right.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2732094
04/26/18 08:40 PM
04/26/18 08:40 PM
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I'm curious if any current Novus owners have tried hooking it up to any VSTs yet? I assume there would be no issues, but you never know...

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2732096
04/26/18 08:42 PM
04/26/18 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TomLC
Originally Posted by arc_turus


The reverb and ambient settings (and EQ) are appilied before the sound is converted from a digital to an analogue signal. So, all analogue outputs (speakers, headphones and line out) share the same effects. If your room has indeed noticeable reverb you can try lowering the reverb level and check if the sound does not become too dry. Note that I find that most ambience/reverb options introduce artefacts into the sound when they are above 2/3 or so of the maximum. These artefacts are more noticeable with headphones
(especially with SHS on) than through speakers (note: I have a CA98, not a NV10). One example is the default Romantic character in pianist mode that uses an echo reverb that sounds artificial though headphones but not bad through the speakers. Lowering the ambiance level improves the sound. But you will have to spend some time trying different settings to adapt the sound to your liking...


Hah?? confused If the room has it's own natural acoustics, that cause reverb, why do we add reverb to the sound? I just want it to sound like a piano would sound in my room, although not as loud.


I would say it depends on the room and the piano combo and what you like. I find pretty much always I'll use less reverb with the speakers in my room and use more with headphones as a general rule, if you have a very dry room you'll probably use more, or a lively room you'd use less if at all. In my case since I use VSTs it all depends on the piano sample too, some I find don't need it, or a minimal amount, like the CFX, others need more.

I'd say let your ears be the guide and have a play around/experiment. The nice thing with digital pianos we have control over such things, it may depend on the piece and mood, how much verb you want and what type, like a concert hall, or something more modest. I am not a fan of really dry recordings in classical anyway, but when i hear jazz piano, and imagine some of the levels of verb one would hear in a concert hall that wouldn't seem right to me, you should be able to simulate such scenarios on your NOVUS or a CA series quite well.

All in all, why not use these options if it adds something to your music, it doesn't have to be one cure for all all the time every day. Acoustics have that limitation, you are stuck with the room as it is, with digitals you can tweak it to your liking to suit the room, they do have some positives over acoustics in that department. smile

I also find it to be good practice to simulate such scenarios, for example, try the Bach prelude in C , see how much pedal you think you need,
in a really dry space if find it sounds better with heavier use of pedal in my room. If you add more verb, you can use less or half pedal more in some places, of course others may prefer it differently, but as an example, amongst pros, which I am most certainly not.

Something like this is already too dry for my liking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPHIZw7HZq4

Some of the barenboim recordings I was going to suggest ( only on spotify ) for me are just perfect and varies the pedalling quite a bit throughout and have more of a hall sound vibe to them also.


Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2732112
04/26/18 10:33 PM
04/26/18 10:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,809
Hamamatsu, Japan
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Originally Posted by JoBert
James, excuse me if I have misunderstood you, but according to the above, you say that it is possible to change the first favorite, by creating a new favorite and then dragging it into first position, and then make the additional settings from that favorite "sticky" (like a "Store as Default") by then switching the "Startup with Favorites" feature off and on again. Is this correct?


Yes and no. wink

From my experience, re-ordering the favorite (i.e. moving the 2nd favorite to the 1st position) will always work correctly, even if the 'Startup with Favorites' setting is not re-toggled (i.e. turn off, then turn on again).

The trick to creating these 'sticky' (as you refer to them) defaults is to also store a new favourite. The reason is because if you make various changes to the default settings (either in Pianist or Sound mode), then switch to Favorites mode in order to re-toggle the 'Startup with Favorites' setting, the previously selected Favorite will be re-selected automatically, thus undoing all of the changes made in Pianist/Sound mode before entering the Favorites screen.

Originally Posted by JoBert
I was absolutely unable to find a procedure (or sequence of steps) where I could create two favorites, then change the order, and then "persuade" the piano to accept the settings from the "now new in first position" favorite as the new sticky settings.
Still the only way how I could reliably define sticky settings was by defining them in the very first favorite that I created after a factory reset (and even then only if I switched the "startup with favorite" setting on before I created a second favorite).


Hmm...can you perhaps provide an example of the Favorite that you would like to create, and have as a 'sticky'?
The method that I follow is reliable (i.e. the outcome is what I expected and intended), even if this 'trick' is not documented in the owner's manual.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2732116
04/26/18 10:48 PM
04/26/18 10:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,809
Hamamatsu, Japan
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Hello Gombessa,

Originally Posted by Gombessa
There's definitely some undocumented behavior that I just don't understand.

In the last hour, I've gotten local control switch from on to off at startup in pianist mode, without creating or editing any favorites. And I just don't know how.


In order to create a Favorite that uses Pianist mode, Local Control Off, and starts-up automatically, please try the following:

1. In Pianist mode, open the main menu, then select the 'Settings' menu.
2. Set Local Control to OFF, then return to the main menu.
(confirm that the keyboard no loner produces any sound)
3. Select 'Store to Favorite', call this 'Pianist Local Off'.
4. Select Favorites screen.
5. Edit the Favorites screen order so that the 'Pianist Local Off' favorite is placed in the top-left corner of the first screen.
6. Open the main menu, set 'Startup with Favorites' to 'On' (if it was previously already set to 'On', set to 'Off' and then 'On' again).
6. Turn the instrument Off and On. The instrument should startup in Favorites mode, with the 'Pianist Local Off' favorite selected automatically, and Local Off turned off (no sound produced by the keyboard).

Please note that I'm writing this away from the instrument, but will try to double-check the procedure later to ensure it is correct.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: TomLC] #2732152
04/27/18 03:33 AM
04/27/18 03:33 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 642
Valencia, Spain
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Originally Posted by TomLC
Originally Posted by arc_turus


The reverb and ambient settings (and EQ) are appilied before the sound is converted from a digital to an analogue signal. So, all analogue outputs (speakers, headphones and line out) share the same effects. If your room has indeed noticeable reverb you can try lowering the reverb level and check if the sound does not become too dry. Note that I find that most ambience/reverb options introduce artefacts into the sound when they are above 2/3 or so of the maximum. These artefacts are more noticeable with headphones
(especially with SHS on) than through speakers (note: I have a CA98, not a NV10). One example is the default Romantic character in pianist mode that uses an echo reverb that sounds artificial though headphones but not bad through the speakers. Lowering the ambiance level improves the sound. But you will have to spend some time trying different settings to adapt the sound to your liking...


Hah?? confused If the room has it's own natural acoustics, that cause reverb, why do we add reverb to the sound? I just want it to sound like a piano would sound in my room, although not as loud. Do we want "artefacts" or not?

That's up to you. Do you like your room's natural echoes, or not? Does your room help sounds to evolve in a fine way, or not? Do you prefer dry sound over wet, would you like to hear what playing in a hall sounds like?...

But Arc Taurus is right: all this effects are modelled, therefore artificial. In my ES7 I always set reverb (whatever the type) to 2/5 in depht and duration. Perhaps a little more only through speakers. Higher values feel (even) more unnatural to me.


Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2732178
04/27/18 07:19 AM
04/27/18 07:19 AM
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hey i am also a new Kawaian Novus conaisseur from austria vienna!! first i have to say I LOOOOOVE IT it really connects almost instantly to my soul when i play it and the resonances are too beautifull and sweet, also the action is superb for my taste. (im wondering with touch curve are you using? im currently using light and its every delicate to play)

but one little thing that is annoying me a bit is the fact that i dont have the pedal vibrations when i put in my headphones, is this normal or am i missing something? (i really really miss it =((()

really really a big thank you from the deepest of my soul and heart for making this beautifull instrument!!! <3 <3 <3

KAWAI YOU ARE AWESOMEEEEE !!!! \o/

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: woferly] #2732183
04/27/18 07:48 AM
04/27/18 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James


In order to create a Favorite that uses Pianist mode, Local Control Off, and starts-up automatically, please try the following:


This is a difficult topic to describe in text! Thanks James, I already know how to set that up and indeed it's how my "default config" works. What I'm talking about is, even with this favorite set up at startup, what happens to Local Control when you then exit the Favorite menu and enter the Pianist or Sound menu? There is a way to get these modes into either Local-On or Local-Off on startup, independent of whether it is on or off in the startup Favorite, and I'm trying to repro the steps to do so (I've been able to change it 4-5 times now but don't know what triggers the toggle).

Originally Posted by woferly
hey i am also a new Kawaian Novus conaisseur from austria vienna!!
but one little thing that is annoying me a bit is the fact that i dont have the pedal vibrations when i put in my headphones, is this normal or am i missing something? (i really really miss it =((()


Woferly, congrats and welcome!

There is no haptic system tied to the pedal, but there is a 6" woofer and sound box just above the pedals, so when you are playing with the speakers, you'll feel the vibrations from that speaker in the pedals. Naturally, you don't get these when playing at really low volume or with headphones.

I do feel some pedal feedback with headphones through the damper mechanism, particularly when partial-pedaling. Striking and releasing keys with the damper partly pressed results in subtle bumps/knocks in the pedal due to the damper weight raising and dropping into the damper rail.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2732185
04/27/18 07:53 AM
04/27/18 07:53 AM
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woferly Offline
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ahhhh that makes perfect sense!! but okay thats not that big of a deal then, it is simply too amazing to play at night with headphones on this amazing action vibrations or not! ^^
i love it soo much im your humble servant forever kawai ! \p/+

also thanky you for that warm welcome gombessa =)

and how do i update the firmware ?
i read somwehere that a new 1.0.2 firmware is released? or did i miss something? smile

Last edited by woferly; 04/27/18 08:03 AM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: woferly] #2732203
04/27/18 08:54 AM
04/27/18 08:54 AM
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Germany
JoBert Offline OP
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Welcome woferly!

Originally Posted by woferly
and how do i update the firmware ?
i read somwehere that a new 1.0.2 firmware is released? or did i miss something? smile

You need to contact Kawai support (Kawai Germany, I believe?) and ask them for the firmware file.

EDIT: I sent you a private message here in the forum with some more details about how to contact support.

Last edited by JoBert; 04/27/18 09:11 AM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2732207
04/27/18 09:10 AM
04/27/18 09:10 AM
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Germany
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Speaking of the firmware update, I remembered a thing:

Did y'all know that if you boot up the NV10 (and most likely also the CA78/CA98) while holding down the middle and left pedal, you will be booted into some sort of factory diagnostic menu?

To be honest, I didn't find anything terribly interesting in there (I only poked around for a few minutes), but maybe someone else finds it more interesting...

Just one thing: If you want to check it out, you do so at your own risk (although I doubt that such a publicly accessible menu contains any "dangerous" options). Oh, and as far as I could tell, switching off the piano was the only way to get out of that menu again.

Oh, and how do I know that? Well, to perform a firmware update, you have to hold down all three pedals while booting up the piano. Obviously I was too dexterity challenged to manage that, because during the first tries I only booted into this diagnostic menu instead of the firmware update menu. I actually had to contact Kawai support about it because I thought I had broken something blush - only for them to tell me that it was because I had not properly held down the right pedal, but only the other two. laugh ha

Last edited by JoBert; 04/27/18 09:14 AM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2732230
04/27/18 10:14 AM
04/27/18 10:14 AM
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Southern California
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[quote=JoBert]
Did y'all know ....

JoBert must come from Southern Germany.. smile


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2732231
04/27/18 10:17 AM
04/27/18 10:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 648
Southern California
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Welcome aboard, woferly! How many do we have in the group so far?

Last edited by TomLC; 04/27/18 10:28 AM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyr] #2732235
04/27/18 10:30 AM
04/27/18 10:30 AM
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Southern California
TomLC Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyr
My NV10 will arrive tomorrow. I hope it won't suffer from these various issues that are discussed here. laugh



Did you get it? thumb Post a picture.


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Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2732248
04/27/18 11:28 AM
04/27/18 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

One important characteristic of the 'Startup with Favorites' function is that it also serves partially as a 'Store as Default' function. So when 'Startup with Favorites' is turned off/on, not only will the first (top-left) favourite be selected automatically at Power On, some additional 'System' settings will also be stored as the default Power On configuration, and - crucially - retained, even after exiting the Favorites screen.


Originally Posted by JoBert

James, excuse me if I have misunderstood you, but according to the above, you say that it is possible to change the first favorite, by creating a new favorite and then dragging it into first position, and then make the additional settings from that favorite "sticky" (like a "Store as Default") by then switching the "Startup with Favorites" feature off and on again. Is this correct?


I had some extra time today. And I've had a breakthrough of sorts. I think everyone on this thread was wrong about this, including me smile

Favorites DO impact system settings, but not exactly in the way any of us have tried to describe. There's definitely some unintended/undocumented behavior going on, and it's almost certainly one or more bugs (though mostly innocuous to the operation of the DP).

What I found is that your startup Favorite can indeed trigger system settings to change default states, BUT it depends to some degree on what's in your Favorites.

Testing with Bluetooth Audio, Bluetooth MIDI, and Local Control, I've successfully gotten all of these to toggle as startup defaults, using my two existing Favorites (Favorite "Mad1" is set to local control on. Favorite "Me1" is set to local control off). I'm not aware of any other changes to these favorites (and I can't access their payloads to check).

First, I go to Pianist Mode, then Settings, and toggle Bluetooth Audio or Bluetooth MIDI Off. Then I back out of the Settings menu, and go to Favorites and select the hamburger menu. I ensure "Startup with Favorite" is enabled, and choose "Edit Favorites" and then just swap the positions of Favorites 1 and 2 a few times. I then exit the Favorites menu and go back to Pianist Mode. Power cycle the NV10. When it starts back up, Bluetooth Audio and Bluetooth MIDI are now disabled! This means that happily, I believe the below to be false:

Originally Posted by JoBert

[*]Not stored at all, not even in a favorite. These settings are the most inconvenient ones. You can select a new value, but once you restart the piano, the setting reverts to its default and not even storing it in a favorite works. This means that such a setting always needs to be set "freshly" after you restart the piano. The "Bluetooth Audio" option is such a setting. It always defaults to "On" after a restart, and is also not stored to a favorite.


Local Control is trickier. You can't just change it, flip some favorites around, and reboot (this only worked about 50% of the time for me). Instead, I think once you set LC to Off within Settings, you then have to go to Edit Favorites, and move the favorites around and end with your first (startup) favorite having a Local Control setting that matches the state you wish to become default (in this case, Off - for me, Favorite "Me1"). Then, power cycle, and if you've done it correctly, Local Control will still be off when you boot up and enter Pianist or Sound Mode. Then you can edit your favorites again and reposition your preferred startup favorite without causing Local Control to flip back on as default.

I may have gotten a few extraneous steps in (you may not need to go back to Pianist Mode before rebooting), and I haven't tested with any other variables (power cycling takes too long), but this is pretty much a 100% repro for me right now. It also took a bunch of reboots and I had to start taking notes since I was losing track of my settings:

[Linked Image]


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2732252
04/27/18 11:41 AM
04/27/18 11:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
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Germany
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Wow! We should probably submit a scientific paper once we have this figured out. wink

Gombessa, if I understood you correctly, then you managed to set a default for LC so that it is off in pianist mode, after a reboot, even if the first favorite has it set to on?

I must admit that I never really tested with the options in the Settings menu, only with those in the Sound Settings menu. Will have to test again with your's and James' additional information.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2732255
04/27/18 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert

Gombessa, if I understood you correctly, then you managed to set a default for LC so that it is off in pianist mode, after a reboot, even if the first favorite has it set to on?


Correct. NV10 boots up into a favorite with LC off (so there is no chance you can accidentally play through speakers at 4am in the morning), but if you tap Pianist in the navbar, LC automatically turns on.

Now what I need is the ability to get Bluetooth Audio to enter a true pairing mode so I can use it as a default speaker with my Google Home device wink


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2732257
04/27/18 11:54 AM
04/27/18 11:54 AM
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Sorry, but this is quite ridiculous for this to be so complicated. It needs to be fixed. This is barely even beta-level software. It's immature software being rushed to market and tested on the public. I would expect Kawai to release a heavily revised and improved version of this software - or hire some app developers who can.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: ando] #2732265
04/27/18 12:16 PM
04/27/18 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
Sorry, but this is quite ridiculous for this to be so complicated. It needs to be fixed. This is barely even beta-level software. It's immature software being rushed to market and tested on the public. I would expect Kawai to release a heavily revised and improved version of this software - or hire some app developers who can.


To tell you the truth, I'm actually kind of afraid that they WILL fix it. I don't know to what degree this should be treated as a "bug" that degrades usability, or an "undocumented/unintended feature" that lets users do more than what the product spec intends. I could easily see them remove (fix) all the extra default settings and then we'd be left without the ability to disable Bluetooth or Local Control on startup.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
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