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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2742949
06/08/18 03:35 AM
06/08/18 03:35 AM
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James, since you're here, maybe you've noticed there are NV10 users who just don't use the internal Kawai sounds and speakers. It won't hurt if you mention to Kawai product designers that there are people who simply prefer top-notch MIDI controller with the best possible grand piano action and no sounds/speakers smile

P.S. I for one would be the first one on the queue to buy a MIDI-only version of NV10 for say half the price.

Last edited by CyberGene; 06/08/18 03:38 AM.

Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2742950
06/08/18 03:50 AM
06/08/18 03:50 AM
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CyberGene, yes, I can understand this sentiment.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2742957
06/08/18 05:27 AM
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We can also conclude that the NV10 fishing unsatisfactory sound quality for many potential buyers of whom I am, even if the keyboard part is excellent
Rovert

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2742959
06/08/18 06:08 AM
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Congrats, Osho.

Just one question (for now): Is it possible to blend a VST, such as the ones you’re using, with the on-board piano in ‘Pianist’ mode? I know this is a given with digital pianos, but since the ‘Pianist’ engine is so particular, I was wondering if it might not allow this.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2742967
06/08/18 07:03 AM
06/08/18 07:03 AM
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That is possible. Pianist mode outputs MIDI signals normally, so you can control a VST while at the same time playing in pianist mode (if you leave Local Control ON).

I can think of several ways to use this to blend pianist mode with a VST:

Via NV10 speakers or headphones: Route back the VST output into the NV10's line-in to blend both sounds (there's even a physical line-in volume control that can help you to get the perfect blending balance). Use the NV10 speakers or headphones connected to the NV10.

Via PC speakers or headphones: Route the NV10 line out into the PC and blend it there with the VST sound. Put a headphone plug/adapter into the NV10's headphone socket to mute the NV10's speakers. Use speakers or headphones connected to the PC.

Of course you can also simply let the VST play via PC speakers and the NV10 via it's own speakers, letting the blending happen by "blending" the actual sound waves from two sets of speakers.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2742968
06/08/18 07:26 AM
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@Osho would you mind sharing some details about the PC you put together for CFX/Pianoteq setup? I'm planning on doing the exact same thing when I get around to buying an NV10.

Thanks,

Casper

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2742970
06/08/18 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
That is possible. Pianist mode outputs MIDI signals normally, so you can control a VST while at the same time playing in pianist mode (if you leave Local Control ON).

I can think of several ways to use this to blend pianist mode with a VST:

Via NV10 speakers or headphones: Route back the VST output into the NV10's line-in to blend both sounds (there's even a physical line-in volume control that can help you to get the perfect blending balance). Use the NV10 speakers or headphones connected to the NV10.

Via PC speakers or headphones: Route the NV10 line out into the PC and blend it there with the VST sound. Put a headphone plug/adapter into the NV10's headphone socket to mute the NV10's speakers. Use speakers or headphones connected to the PC.

Of course you can also simply let the VST play via PC speakers and the NV10 via it's own speakers, letting the blending happen by "blending" the actual sound waves from two sets of speakers.


Good to know.

I’ve had access to an N2 blended with Pianoteq, and the result can be very convincing; once you iron out the discrepancies in terms of intonation and volume. With the N2 this can only be done (on a note-per-note basis and globally) from Pianoteq Pro, but with the Novus one can get more creative on both ends; since the Novus allows for some note-per-note edits and also global edits.
The N2 lets you adjust reverb, and that’s it!

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2742992
06/08/18 09:17 AM
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I had the nv10 blended with Garritan CFX for a few minutes back when I was first setting it up. Didn't like it, frankly. It sounded less like a single piano tone and more like a muddy mix, particularly in the lower registers. Either sound engine running alone was better to my ears.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2742995
06/08/18 09:27 AM
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Just my thoughts:
If for that price, some of you prefer using VST’s.......
It means that the target of this piano is not met.

I tried the new CA78, ( for few minutes only though) and even
If I felt ( or I believed that...) some small improvements about the sound were done,(compared to CA67)
There is still a big room before reaching the sound of a real instrument.( which Is a nice challenge!)
Is the action really worth it the price difference with let’s say the ÇA 78/98 ?(to stay in that brand.)

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2742999
06/08/18 09:40 AM
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The way I see it:

1. There are a lot of different people with different needs and desires out there.

2. I suspect those of us who run VSTs are very few in number (there as re dozens of us! DOZENS!).

3. Action is very important to some people, to some it is THE most important thing, above the sound generation.

4. If you want a more realistic action than a CA series, you have 3 choices. Get an NV10, get an AvanGrand, or get an acoustic. Or if you are Cybergene you have an additional choice wink

So whether it's worth the money really depends on how much you value having an authentic action to play.

I agree that digitals (even the best VSTs) don't sound like real pianos when you are sitting at the bench (recorded is another story imo). There are huge limitations to current technology, not the least of which is amplification/speakers, so there's plenty of room to improve over the years smile

While I wouldn't mind an NV10 that ran Garritan CFX right out of the box, I would say the NV10 is absolutely hitting the target that I bought it for. It's an absolute joy to play, every day.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: rolex67] #2743005
06/08/18 10:05 AM
06/08/18 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by rolex67
Just my thoughts:
If for that price, some of you prefer using VST’s.......
It means that the target of this piano is not met.

I tried the new CA78, ( for few minutes only though) and even
If I felt ( or I believed that...) some small improvements about the sound were done,(compared to CA67)
There is still a big room before reaching the sound of a real instrument.( which Is a nice challenge!)
Is the action really worth it the price difference with let’s say the ÇA 78/98 ?(to stay in that brand.)


Gombessa has it right, as usual. However, another factor is where people are in their lives. In years and finances. We don't question why a mature adult (even a beginner) purchases an expensive grand piano if he has the resources and the space. Why not? People buys expensive boats too. The NV10 feels like sitting at a grand piano. And to me it sounds like a grand piano. Not so much with headphones, but that will never happen in my lifetime. After all, you are wearing headphones. Same when listening to a recording vs. a live band. Just the other day some friends, golfers, asked me about my piano because they remember when I bought the CA97 and were shocked at the cost. When I told them the NV10 was just under $10K they almost fell over. They really think I am crazy. But if I had said I bought a baby grand for $20K, no one would question it.


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: TomLC] #2743017
06/08/18 10:44 AM
06/08/18 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by TomLC
Just the other day some friends, golfers, asked me about my piano because they remember when I bought the CA97 and were shocked at the cost. When I told them the NV10 was just under $10K they almost fell over. They really think I am crazy. But if I had said I bought a baby grand for $20K, no one would question it.


Then again, I'm sure they've been called crazy for spending $5k on a set of golf clubs too. Oh, and the fancy shoes, pants, vest, bag, visor, rangefinder, GPS, etc. Every hobby has ways of using your money...

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: ando] #2743018
06/08/18 10:48 AM
06/08/18 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by TomLC
Just the other day some friends, golfers, asked me about my piano because they remember when I bought the CA97 and were shocked at the cost. When I told them the NV10 was just under $10K they almost fell over. They really think I am crazy. But if I had said I bought a baby grand for $20K, no one would question it.


Then again, I'm sure they've been called crazy for spending $5k on a set of golf clubs too. Oh, and the fancy shoes, pants, vest, bag, visor, rangefinder, GPS, etc. Every hobby has ways of using your money...


laugh Classic cars?

Last edited by TomLC; 06/08/18 10:51 AM.

Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2743025
06/08/18 11:38 AM
06/08/18 11:38 AM
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Quote
Just the other day some friends, golfers, asked me about my piano because they remember when I bought the CA97 and were shocked at the cost. When I told them the NV10 was just under $10K they almost fell over. They really think I am crazy. But if I had said I bought a baby grand for $20K, no one would question it.


But then, where will the NV10 (and their golf clubs) be in ten years? Your $20k baby grand will of course still be playing right along--and at 20 years, 40 years, and perhaps even 100 years (if we all last that long).

Last edited by NormB; 06/08/18 11:39 AM.
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: NormB] #2743026
06/08/18 11:42 AM
06/08/18 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by NormB


But then, where will the NV10 (and their golf clubs) be in ten years? Your $20k baby grand will of course still be playing right along--and at 20 years, 40 years, and perhaps even 100 years.


Norm, you missed my point. The baby grand may be playing in 20 years, but I very much doubt I will. tired


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2743030
06/08/18 12:02 PM
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Some interesting developments on the MIDI front (for me):

It turns out that changing the "Touch Curve" between Heavy+ to Light+ affects only the "forte" end of the spectrum (as the manual correctly explains). That means that the minimum touch needed to strike a note remains the same between all settings (other than "Off") but "heavy+" requires a much higher velocity than "light+" to get above MIDI velocity 80-90.

On my NV10, during regular play, I can rarely ever get over 100. Most ff notes/chords are 90-100. If I change the Touch Curve to light or light+, the MIDI values being sent by the piano actually change, and on light+ I can get up to ~125.

What this means is that I can set the NV10 to Light+ touch curve, and then smooth out the "s-curve" for the touch sensitivity set in Garritan CFX, which effectively increases the granularity and the dynamic range in the VST. Sweet. This change can be saved via Favorite, too.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2743040
06/08/18 12:46 PM
06/08/18 12:46 PM
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That's a very interesting find. I wonder if the touch curves are similar to the CA78 (one would speculate that it is, given that they use similar or the same interface), I've been setting light on the GUI of the touch screen and also light on the vst's. Have to test it out tomorrow on Pianoteq and CFX Lite.


Kawai CA78 | Kawai ES110 | Kawai Upright | Alexander Herrmann Upright (Sold) | Korg SP170 (Sold) | JBL LSR305 // Pianoteq Stage // CFX Lite
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: ArtlessArt] #2743105
06/08/18 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ArtlessArt
That's a very interesting find. I wonder if the touch curves are similar to the CA78 (one would speculate that it is, given that they use similar or the same interface), I've been setting light on the GUI of the touch screen and also light on the vst's. Have to test it out tomorrow on Pianoteq and CFX Lite.


The same happens on the CA98. When playing pp to f the midi velocity stays below 80-90 with the normal touch curve. Getting values slightly above 100 requires hammering the keys. With the touch curve on light or light+, playing mf/f produces velocity around 100 and it is possible to get around 120 with the same velocity I would use on an acoustic to get f/ff. It also seems that in pianist mode there are dynamic layers/samples that are only triggered with velocity above 100 - at least it seems different tones are produced when playing mf/f/ff with a light curve that cannot be hear when the curve is set to normal/heavy (this is not about the volume of the sound but its tone). The downside of the light/light+ setting is that the action becomes quite sensitive around mf, which makes it harder to control the dynamics. I have tried to “smooth out “ the velocity curve using a user setting, but never managed to get an acceptable result - that would be easy if one could edit the user curve like in pianoteq or other vst. But as Gombessa pointed out, when using these DPs as a controller, setting a light/light+ curve on the DP and then adjusting it on the VST seems the best option.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2743111
06/08/18 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
If I change the Touch Curve to light or light+, the MIDI values being sent by the piano actually change, and on light+ I can get up to ~125.

What this means is that I can set the NV10 to Light+ touch curve, and then smooth out the "s-curve" for the touch sensitivity set in Garritan CFX, which effectively increases the granularity and the dynamic range in the VST. Sweet. This change can be saved via Favorite, too.


That opens up a few more layers and your VIs should sound and play a bit more dynamic.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: arc7urus] #2743114
06/08/18 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by newer player

That opens up a few more layers and your VIs should sound and play a bit more dynamic.


Yep! Before, I had the VST's touch sensitivity set to an S-curve so that the 80-90 velocity from the piano would trigger the loudest velocity layers. But having the piano responsive from 5-125 rather than 5-90 allows for more range between actions.

Originally Posted by arc7urus
[The downside of the light/light+ setting is that the action becomes quite sensitive around mf, which makes it harder to control the dynamics. I have tried to “smooth out “ the velocity curve using a user setting, but never managed to get an acceptable result - that would be easy if one could edit the user curve like in pianoteq or other vst.


Interesting. I don't know how the "curve" is adjusted between heavy-normal-light, but from what I can tell, the lowest velocities (5-20) are exactly the same between all settings. I suppose there must be some compression somewhere, though, since I'm not pressing any harder to get 120 on Light+ versus 90 on Normal....


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2743115
06/08/18 07:28 PM
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Same basic scheme for entry level es100 - need to set keyboard touch to light to unlock all 128 MIDI velocities.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2743148
06/09/18 12:34 AM
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If I understand correctly, this issue has been discussed here long time ago.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: CyberGene] #2743168
06/09/18 05:39 AM
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On my Yamaha N1, on Normal curve, to go beyond 90 I have to bang the key - and then just to reach maybe 98-100.
On the other end of the spectrum, it doesn't start to play unless you go beyond around 15. That means I have 85 possible velocity values (more realistically, while playing, 75 values) from a piano I paid 6000€ just to use it as a luxury controller for Garritan or VSL CFX.
I'm still happy I bought it, as nothing beats a real piano action, but - still wondering what where the engineers at Yamaha thinking when designing the midi circuits.
So, my desire to upgrade is alive and well again since the NV10 came out - beautiful action indeed! Oh well, will this ever end?

Originally Posted by CyberGene
P.S. I for one would be the first one on the queue to buy a MIDI-only version of NV10 for say half the price.


I would pay full NV10 price for a concert grand action - you know, the one you can easily play close to the fallboard - and perfect MIDI-only implementation - I doubt it will ever happen though!


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: 9190] #2743172
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Originally Posted by 9190
If I understand correctly, this issue has been discussed here long time ago.


Thanks! I was unaware of this discussion.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2743174
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

Originally Posted by arc7urus
[The downside of the light/light+ setting is that the action becomes quite sensitive around mf, which makes it harder to control the dynamics. I have tried to “smooth out “ the velocity curve using a user setting, but never managed to get an acceptable result - that would be easy if one could edit the user curve like in pianoteq or other vst.


Interesting. I don't know how the "curve" is adjusted between heavy-normal-light, but from what I can tell, the lowest velocities (5-20) are exactly the same between all settings. I suppose there must be some compression somewhere, though, since I'm not pressing any harder to get 120 on Light+ versus 90 on Normal....


Exactly. The lower velocity range seems to remain the same regardless of the touch curve. But when playing mf with the Normal curve I get a MIDI note-on velocity around 70 even with some small variations on the actual physical velocity of the key. But with the Light/Light+ curve those small variations are translated to a MIDI velocity around 70-100.This is sufficient to produce a noticeable difference in the sound. So, it seems there is some "compression" on the mapping between the sensor data and the MIDI velocities on Normal that does not take place on Light.

Btw, I still have my Casio PX-560 which has the same issue not producing MIDI velocities above ~100 with the Normal velocity curve. But when I set the PX-560 to a Light curve I can get the full MIDI velocity range while managing to keep a fairly consistent MIDI note-on velocity while playing mf. But if I set the CA98 to Light and play with the same mf dynamics, then the MIDI velocities are mapped to a wider spectrum.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: 9190] #2743202
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Originally Posted by 9190
If I understand correctly, this issue has been discussed here long time ago.


Thanks, 9190. I recall that specific thread, but I don't think my piano behaves as was described (pp DOESN'T sound like mf. The same keypress velocity results in MIDI note-on of 5-20 for me, regardless of Touch Curve being set to Light+ or Heavy+ or anything inbetween.

I just recalled various discussions about how it was "normal" for DPs not to hit 1~127, and that there was nothing you can do about it. From a VST perspective though, it sounds like Light/Light+ with a custom velocity curve is the way to go.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: TomLC] #2743208
06/09/18 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by TomLC
Originally Posted by NormB


But then, where will the NV10 (and their golf clubs) be in ten years? Your $20k baby grand will of course still be playing right along--and at 20 years, 40 years, and perhaps even 100 years.


Norm, you missed my point. The baby grand may be playing in 20 years, but I very much doubt I will. tired


Point absolutely well taken!

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: NormB] #2743212
06/09/18 11:30 AM
06/09/18 11:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 397
So. Calif.
TomLC Online content
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TomLC  Online Content
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Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 397
So. Calif.
Originally Posted by NormB


Point absolutely well taken!


So enjoy ha yippie


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2743505
06/10/18 06:44 PM
06/10/18 06:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 797
Portland, OR, USA
O
Osho Offline
500 Post Club Member
Osho  Offline
500 Post Club Member
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 797
Portland, OR, USA
Thank you all.

Here are some pics. It fits well in the room I think. Even though I am facing a wall - there is a window on the side at least smile.
[Linked Image]

I think the black monitor goes well with the style of Novus NV 10 smile.
[Linked Image]

There is a slim profile DAW PC hiding behind.
[Linked Image]

I use the touch-screen monitor for both interacting with DAW (Cakewalk) and for viewing sheet music. Almost all the sheet music I use has been digitized from books (or downloaded from IMSLP) - so it keeps the piano clutter free.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

BTW, the Dell logo is upside down because it makes the monitor sit flat against the sheet music stand with cables coming out from the top. I put the nice black felt-like cloth that came with the NV10 between the stand and the monitor to protect the music stand finish.

@budtz, here are the details of the PC build. It is a bit of an overkill in terms of specs for my intended purpose, but I wanted to future proof for 5+ years.

  • Intel Core i7-8770 (with stock Intel cooler)
  • GIGABYTE H370N WIFI (LGA1151/Intel/H270/Mini ITX/USB 3.1 Gen 1 (USB3.0) Type C Type A/DDR4/Motherboard)
  • WD Blue 3D NAND 1TB PC SSD - SATA III 6 Gb/s M.2 2280 Solid State Drive - WDS100T2B0B
  • Dell S2240T 21.5-Inch Touch Screen LED-lit Monitor
  • Corsair Vengeance LPX 16GB (2x8GB) DDR4 DRAM 2666MHz (PC4 21300) C16 Desktop Memory Kit - Black (CMK16GX4M2A2666C16)
  • Fractal Design Case Cases FD-MCA-NODE-202-AA-US
  • TNP Midi to USB Cable Interface Converter - IN OUT Midi Cable Host Adapter Plug Controller Wire Cord For Keyboard Synthesizer Piano Instrument to Mac
  • Windows 10


My objectives behind building this PC were:
  • Instant VST - without requiring any computer interaction.
  • DAW with support for metronome - especially with Garritan CFX (which does not have a built-in metronome as far as I can tell).
  • Pianomarvel support.


This PC serves all these objectives (even though Pianomarvel support with Garritan CFX required a few hoops that I had to jump through as each wants its own sound output device and its own Midi input device).

A few technical notes on the setup:
  • I use the "TNP Mid to USB Cable interface" and connect NV10 via Midi output (instead of via USB to Host). This is because Cakewalk (and Garritan CFX's own app) does not recognize the NV10 USB Midi after NV10 is turned off and on, without having to interact with the software. With the Midi interface, I can turn NV10 on, put the headphone ON and can start playing Garritan CFX, even before the built in Pianist mode sound can be played. I don't have to do anywith with the computer.
  • Touching the touchscreen monitor does not bring the PC out of sleep. So, I have a small mouse hiding behind that I move to bring the PC out of sleep in case I need to use the PC. Most of the time I do not have to do this as just the physical action of pushing the power button on NV10 makes the mouse move enough that PC wakes up!
  • I have been happy with the builtin Realtek ALC1220-VB sound chip on the motherboard. It works well with the ASIO4ALL. It is one of the better Reaktek chips and has Smart Hedaphone Amp which can autosense headphone impedance - it correctly identified 80 ohms impedance on my headphone. I do not have a dedicated USB audio interface or a PCI express sound card. The slim case can support PCI express sound card - which I plan to add eventually if needed. So far, I haven't felt the need on 48kHz/24-bit.
  • With just 2-3 taps, I can switch from Pianoteq to Garritan CFX (or even mix them if I feel like it). Very convenient as sometime I do switch between them.


Thanks,
Osho

Last edited by Osho; 06/10/18 06:52 PM.

Mason & Hamlin BB
Kawai Novus NV10 + Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2743506
06/10/18 06:56 PM
06/10/18 06:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,275
Sofia, Bulgaria
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CyberGene Offline
2000 Post Club Member
CyberGene  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,275
Sofia, Bulgaria
Congrats! As always, how would you compare the Pianist mode vs CFX?


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
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