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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731739
04/25/18 04:18 PM
04/25/18 04:18 PM
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Portland, OR, USA
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Osho Offline
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Sounds like Kawai needs to hire some Human computer interaction experts. Such complicated and convoluted mechanism is not acceptable.

Thanks,
Osho


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Kawai Novus NV10 + Embertone Walker D Full/Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731741
04/25/18 04:30 PM
04/25/18 04:30 PM
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Tl;dr.

J/K! Thanks for the tremendously valuable description JoBert! This pretty well summarizes my generally confusion with how some settings seem to stick or not stick given various factors. While assigning favorites I did do some factory resets, and was surprised that something let me get LC off within the pianist mode screen (and why turning it on won't survive a power cycle).

I was thinking LC may be one of those tied-to-first-favorite defaults, except my startup favorite has LC On (so my daughter can turn it on and just start playing), and in Pianist Mode it switches to LC Off (the opposite of my startup favorite). So I might have first created my LC-Off favorite and moved it to the second slot, so what I have now is the "unpredictable" default.

I may factory reset to try to change it, but honestly I'm afraid I may not be able to replicate the current setup easily.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Osho] #2731743
04/25/18 04:42 PM
04/25/18 04:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
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Germany
JoBert Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Osho
Sounds like Kawai needs to hire some Human computer interaction experts. Such complicated and convoluted mechanism is not acceptable.

Well, "not acceptable" is a rather absolute verdict and, as they say, "only the Sith deal in absolutes". smile

In principle, I agree. The problems in the firmware (btw not specific to the NV10 but shared with the CA98 and CA78) are the one area where I really hope that one of these days Kawai picks up the ball and comes out with a fixed firmware. I find those problems much more annoying than the other teething problems reported here.

But I still don't categorize them as "not acceptable" because if I would follow through on this verdict, I would have no other choice than to return the piano. Which I don't do, so obviously the problems are not "not acceptable" to me smile. And I am definitely not willing to return it, as I enjoy it too much. More and more so each day, actually.
And since I've figured out how to work around the problems, so that I've now set up the piano to my liking, those problems are not affecting that enjoyment either - fortunately.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2731746
04/25/18 04:51 PM
04/25/18 04:51 PM
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Germany
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Tl;dr.

cry cursing


wink

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731768
04/25/18 06:23 PM
04/25/18 06:23 PM
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Portland, OR, USA
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Osho
Sounds like Kawai needs to hire some Human computer interaction experts. Such complicated and convoluted mechanism is not acceptable.

Well, "not acceptable" is a rather absolute verdict and, as they say, "only the Sith deal in absolutes". smile

In principle, I agree. The problems in the firmware (btw not specific to the NV10 but shared with the CA98 and CA78) are the one area where I really hope that one of these days Kawai picks up the ball and comes out with a fixed firmware. I find those problems much more annoying than the other teething problems reported here.

But I still don't categorize them as "not acceptable" because if I would follow through on this verdict, I would have no other choice than to return the piano. Which I don't do, so obviously the problems are not "not acceptable" to me smile. And I am definitely not willing to return it, as I enjoy it too much. More and more so each day, actually.
And since I've figured out how to work around the problems, so that I've now set up the piano to my liking, those problems are not affecting that enjoyment either - fortunately.


Well, my order for NV10 still stands and I am excited and looking forward to its delivery. So, 'not acceptable' is perhaps too strong word choice. But, I hope Kawai James will forward our collective forum sentiment to the firmware development team.

Thank you for sharing the details. I will be sure to go back and read your post again when NV10 is delivered to me.

Osho


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731774
04/25/18 06:51 PM
04/25/18 06:51 PM
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Southern California
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Tl;dr.

cry cursing


wink


JoBert, Excellent explanation. It really is not a problem as long as you keep your first favorite first.

Are you guys talking German? Tl;dr J/K?

Last edited by TomLC; 04/25/18 06:58 PM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: TomLC] #2731781
04/25/18 07:05 PM
04/25/18 07:05 PM
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Hobart, Australia
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Originally Posted by TomLC

Are you guys talking German? Tl;dr J/K?

It means,"too long, didn't read." grin

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: ando] #2731784
04/25/18 07:08 PM
04/25/18 07:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 648
Southern California
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by TomLC

Are you guys talking German? Tl;dr J/K?

It means,"too long, didn't read." grin


Ha Ha. Love it. I did read it. It was Brilliant! It solved one of my confusions. (I have many more but not related to NV10 functions.)

Last edited by TomLC; 04/25/18 07:09 PM.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731785
04/25/18 07:12 PM
04/25/18 07:12 PM
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And "j/k" is "just kidding" smile It is of course an excellent summary of some very complex behavior. I'm saving JoBert's post to refer to when I did more into saving settings.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731786
04/25/18 07:15 PM
04/25/18 07:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 648
Southern California
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We are lucky to have him! I guess you can see I am not up on the "forum" shortcuts. Thanks for the update.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731861
04/26/18 01:54 AM
04/26/18 01:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,809
Hamamatsu, Japan
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Hello chaps,

Unfortunately, there are some minor errors in the CA98/CA78 (and by extension, NV10) owner's manual that will be corrected shortly, my apologies for any confusion these errors may have caused.

JoBert's explanation is more or less correct, however the 'bonus' 'Startup with Favorites' behaviour he describes is not limited to just the first time this function is used, but something that can be applied at any time.

One important characteristic of the 'Startup with Favorites' function is that it also serves partially as a 'Store as Default' function. So when 'Startup with Favorites' is turned off/on, not only will the first (top-left) favourite be selected automatically at Power On, some additional 'System' settings will also be stored as the default Power On configuration, and - crucially - retained, even after exiting the Favorites screen.

Please note that this behaviour is not documented in the current owner's manual.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2731913
04/26/18 07:56 AM
04/26/18 07:56 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 298
Germany
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My NV10 will arrive tomorrow. I hope it won't suffer from these various issues that are discussed here. laugh


Current: Yamaha NU1X | Roland FP-30 with Garritan CFX Lite & Pianoteq 6
Past: Yamaha: P-115, YDP-163, CLP-545, CLP-685 | Kawai: CA-98, Novus NV10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyr] #2731917
04/26/18 08:13 AM
04/26/18 08:13 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 81
Indonesia
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Please share some pics when it has arrived wink


Let's help each other... laugh
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Tyr] #2731977
04/26/18 01:29 PM
04/26/18 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyr
My NV10 will arrive tomorrow. I hope it won't suffer from these various issues that are discussed here. laugh

Tyr - Don't worry about it. The issues mentioned in this thread are very minor in my opinion and all sortable. I've had a couple, but it does not detract from what a really good DP the NV10 is.
Enjoy your Novus and join the club smile

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Kawai James] #2732040
04/26/18 05:19 PM
04/26/18 05:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,025
Germany
JoBert Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
JoBert's explanation is more or less correct, however the 'bonus' 'Startup with Favorites' behaviour he describes is not limited to just the first time this function is used, but something that can be applied at any time.

One important characteristic of the 'Startup with Favorites' function is that it also serves partially as a 'Store as Default' function. So when 'Startup with Favorites' is turned off/on, not only will the first (top-left) favourite be selected automatically at Power On, some additional 'System' settings will also be stored as the default Power On configuration, and - crucially - retained, even after exiting the Favorites screen.

James, excuse me if I have misunderstood you, but according to the above, you say that it is possible to change the first favorite, by creating a new favorite and then dragging it into first position, and then make the additional settings from that favorite "sticky" (like a "Store as Default") by then switching the "Startup with Favorites" feature off and on again. Is this correct?

Because unfortunately, this does indeed not work (for me at least). I already tested this extensively a while ago (and based on this I wrote the description in my post above) but your answer now made me unsure if I missed something, so I tested it again. Once again extensively (I probably restarted my piano >20 times for this now and did a good number of factory resets too).
And unfortunately, no matter what combination or order of "create favorite", "reorder favorites", "switch 'startup with favorites' off/on", "restart piano", etc. I tried, I was absolutely unable to find a procedure (or sequence of steps) where I could create two favorites, then change the order, and then "persuade" the piano to accept the settings from the "now new in first position" favorite as the new sticky settings.
Still the only way how I could reliably define sticky settings was by defining them in the very first favorite that I created after a factory reset (and even then only if I switched the "startup with favorite" setting on before I created a second favorite).

I'm not sure, but I think I once managed to get a proper sticky favorite not by starting with a factory reset, but by starting with an empty favorite screen. I.e. I switched off "startup with favorites", then deleted all existing favorites (or maybe I did these two steps in reverse order, I'm not sure), then created a new first favorite, then switched "startup with favorites" on again, and thus got a proper sticky favorite. But I'm not sure if that was a fluke, or if that is equally "reliable" as starting with a factory reset.

But generally I stand with my description from my previous post: For me at least, changing the favorite order breaks the "sticky" settings in unpredictable ways. So my advice is still to create that all important first favorite with well thought out settings, and then never touch it again.

Is it possible that what you describe is the intended behavior, but that this simply doesn't work as designed?

Because then it would be great if the engineers could get this fixed, so that it would indeed work as you described.

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2732059
04/26/18 06:37 PM
04/26/18 06:37 PM
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There's definitely some undocumented behavior that I just don't understand.

In the last hour, I've gotten local control switch from on to off at startup in pianist mode, without creating or editing any favorites. And I just don't know how.

I tried saving the change in "store to sound." I tried saving to a new favorite but breaking out of the menu. I tried just making the change and posting off. I even tried various combinations of playing before the GUI loads, or fast switching to a local off favourite as soon as it does load. No dude, but I can confirm it IS possible to change the default local control outside of a favorite. I'm equal parts amused, baffled and frustrated by this smile

While trying all this, I've been thinking about how binder it would be too be able to load a favorite and see its settings, and be able to edit them and save the changed to the existing favorite.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2732061
04/26/18 06:56 PM
04/26/18 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
There's definitely some undocumented behavior that I just don't understand.

In the last hour, I've gotten local control switch from on to off at startup in pianist mode, without creating or editing any favorites. And I just don't know how.

I tried saving the change in "store to sound." I tried saving to a new favorite but breaking out of the menu. I tried just making the change and posting off. I even tried various combinations of playing before the GUI loads, or fast switching to a local off favourite as soon as it does load. No dude, but I can confirm it IS possible to change the default local control outside of a favorite. I'm equal parts amused, baffled and frustrated by this smile

While trying all this, I've been thinking about how binder it would be too be able to load a favorite and see its settings, and be able to edit them and save the changed to the existing favorite.


Also, it would be helpful if one could take a particular sound or favorite back to default settings without resetting everything to factory default.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: JoBert] #2732062
04/26/18 07:03 PM
04/26/18 07:03 PM
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Change of subject. I am and always have been confused about Reverb and now Ambiance settings. If I am in a small room and I am playing through the speakers, the room itself will create (cause) a reverb effect on its own. So should I turn reverb off? Leave Ambiance at Natural? If I set the reverb to Lounge or Wood Studio, does it only effect the sound through the headphones and the line out, and not effect the sound through the speakers? Just wondering. I keep going back to the factory default as I assume they know what they are doing.


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Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: Gombessa] #2732069
04/26/18 07:22 PM
04/26/18 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

...While trying all this, I've been thinking about how binder it would be too be able to load a favorite and see its settings, and be able to edit them and save the changed to the existing favorite.


You mean, having the favourites management interface behaving properly and as expected? ;-) The interface controlling the settings, favourites, the music player and the instrument selection in sound mode needs to be revised for usability. There is still hope that Kawai steps up and delivers a significant update with a refreshed GUI. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if all we ever get are some minor bug corrections without any improvements to the GUI usability at all. Alternatively Kawai could make the VT app for the iPad compatible with these models. The app is far from perfect but it is some orders of magnitude superior to the current GUI in terms of usability...

Re: Kawai Novus NV10 - Hands On [Re: TomLC] #2732077
04/26/18 07:42 PM
04/26/18 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TomLC
Change of subject. I am and always have been confused about Reverb and now Ambiance settings. If I am in a small room and I am playing through the speakers, the room itself will create (cause) a reverb effect on its own. So should I turn reverb off? Leave Ambiance at Natural? If I set the reverb to Lounge or Wood Studio, does it only effect the sound through the headphones and the line out, and not effect the sound through the speakers? Just wondering. I keep going back to the factory default as I assume they know what they are doing.


The reverb and ambient settings (and EQ) are appilied before the sound is converted from a digital to an analogue signal. So, all analogue outputs (speakers, headphones and line out) share the same effects. If your room has indeed noticeable reverb you can try lowering the reverb level and check if the sound does not become too dry. Note that I find that most ambience/reverb options introduce artefacts into the sound when they are above 2/3 or so of the maximum. These artefacts are more noticeable with headphones (especially with SHS on) than through speakers (note: I have a CA98, not a NV10). One example is the default Romantic character in pianist mode that uses an echo reverb that sounds artificial though headphones but not bad through the speakers. Lowering the ambiance level improves the sound. But you will have to spend some time trying different settings to adapt the sound to your liking...

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